133 réponses à ce sujet

[MrGone]

I think the oddest argument people (in general, not here exactly) have for ammo is this idea of "making your shots count".

Uh I think having enemies trying to kill you is what makes people value their shots counting, not how much ammo you have left in reserve. Wouldn't you?

That said . . . meh, I think the biggest problem with the ammo system in ME2 is just that it doesn't feel unique.

ME1's wasn't perfect, but at least it felt different. Having "thermal clips" implemented (in the way they were implented) just felt like very other game ever. I'd prefer something that enables similar functionality but still feels unique to the universe. This venting concept seems like a good trade off.

Also I saw another conept somewhere else where the diea was that you had thermal clips, and you could switch them at will, but the way they worked was to be a heat meter ala ME1 in of themselves. They only HAD to be switched if they reached maximum heat, and then the heat in the clip would slowly dissipate when not in the gun.

I liked this idea because A) it kept willful reloading, it kept the heat concept from ME1, and thus uniqueness, and C) it had an obvious RPG upgrade path : one way to upgrade a gun would be to obtain more thermal clips for that type of weapon, so you could keep them in a rotation of reloading.

[MrGone]

Also, there are other elements of shooters that ME2 could definitely improve upon in the sequel.

- The removal of grenades takes away a tool to flush enemies out of cover. Not as much of an issue for most classes, but for the soldier . . . this could be useful for him. I know there are the DLC character grenades but . . . well Kasumi's is alright, but I found Zaeed's to be pretty inadequate.

- No blind fire isn't that big adeal (I have so many "Blind Luck" or what ever they call it for getting "X number of kills from Blindfire" achievements it's ridiculous) BUT it does feel strange that it's not in a cover shooter, since this is like one of the points of MAKING A COVER SHOOTER. Seriously, if you have the ability to take cover behind an object but can't blind fire, this is no different than giveing a player the ability to duck and tossing crates into a level in an FPS.

- The inabilty to "trade down" as said in the OP does seem a bit odd and limiting. I know they want you to focus on YOUR guns and all, but there's no reason to not pick up enemy weapons if I want to. Unless you justify this (like they do in the Metal Gear games) it just comes off as silly. That being said - this seems confirmed to change in ME3 already.

- Pistols really have no purpose in the heirarcy of weapons for the classes that have decent weapon selection. I guess they fall into the "pea shooter" backup category, but there should probably still be more of an advantage to using them in some situations. A lot of games give them silencers for this very reason, or enable faster melee attacks with them equipped versus when holding a rifle. Another good reason for a pistol sidearm? Quicker weapon switch/draw time.

- Speaking of this . . . ugh. Switching weapons is WAY too slow in ME 1 and 2. This seriously needs to be something that some classes should be able to do better than others (Soldier with all weapons, Infiltrator with Sniper Rifles, Vanguard with Shotguns), and should be noticable different between weapon classes, or can be sped up while in cover versus when not in cover.

All that being said, there are still things I'd love to see in ME3 when it comes to gunplay that aren't really in other shooters too often.

- Working Covering Fire. No one every really does this in any game. Especially for a game that's trying to have quasi-realistic military tactics and maneuvers, not having covering fire to be a "thing" is just silly. It's also a reason to have blind fire for certain situations. Now I know it's more about AI manipualtion (firing at the location around an enemy without necessarily trying to hit them in order to keep them pinned down would have to be something to account for) , but it would effect weapon balance and give reasons to use certain guns in different situations (like an SMG at range to keep enemies ducking). It could also be a great squad ability so I can move to a new location without as much worry of getting my head shot off.

Also considering like the 2nd chapter of Mass Effect : Revelation has a whole firefight done with covering fire being used properly, it seems like at least a few folks at bioWare understand the concept.

- Weapon jamming/problems. The only modern game that does this withany consistency is Gears of War, since they have an active reload system that uses this as a nice bit of Risk for the gameplay. BUT it used to be a hallmark of any RPG with guns (go play Fallout 1 or 2 with low luck to see misfires and accidently ejected clips all over the place).

Mass Effect is an RPG. It has guns. I would love to see this as an occasional element (not necessarily caused by enemy influence). Since we can pick up fallen weapons now, this would be a good way to differntiate between the hero guns and temporary weapons - random jam chance on mook weapons. Though I suppose in the ME universe it would be "broken heat sink" rather than jamming.

[CajNatalie]

(conversation between Murmillos and Tony Gunslinger)

I agree with where this is going.^

MrGone wrote...

- Pistols really have no purpose in the
heirarcy of weapons for the classes that have decent weapon selection. I
guess they fall into the "pea shooter" backup category, but there
should probably still be more of an advantage to using them in some
situations. A lot of games give them silencers for this very reason, or
enable faster melee attacks with them equipped versus when holding a
rifle. Another good reason for a pistol sidearm? Quicker weapon
switch/draw time.

I'm with a lot of the other things you've said, but I have to interject on pistols...
They used to be freaking awesome in ME1.
The easiest way to put it is "I miss Marksman" in ME2... I seriously miss it...
In my Soldier game I underestimated them so I never imagined using them over my Assault Rifle and kept giving Liara, Kaidan, and Tali Assault Rifles without noticing that they couldn't hit crap with them (hell, even trained characters sometimes couldn't hit things with Assault Rifles unless you gave them recoil-modded Spectre ones)... but after that... in my Engineer, Infiltrator, and Vanguard games, I tore things up with pistols.... especially with my Vanguard, who was the first one I put to Master Marksman... holy crap Pinnacle Station was never so easy as it was with her, and I played Insanity with my Vanguard.
Sorry, I know that was an off-topic tangent, but it had to be said.

I really... miss the way pistols worked in ME1...
I miss Marksman so much...
;_;

Modifié par CajNatalie, 02 mai 2011 - 04:38 .

[Varen Spectre]

 @MrGone
Excellent.  Even though your post slightly deviates from original ammo oriented topic, I like your ideas and the way you put them. If you have more, I would gladly check them out.

I especially like the idea of covering fire. Since Shepard has squadmates, it would be really cool. Maybe if there was some kind of command (at least I am not aware of it) which would allow the player to order his henchmen to lock-on their fire / special attacks on particular place in a similar way their abilities are used for single shots, it would start to resemble it.  Such firing support could even be executed from cover (maybe squadmates' blindfire). Of course, easy way to cancel the "lock-on" mode would be necessary too.

As for the tediousness of ammo collecting, the proposed hybrid system does indeed sound like a good solution for it. It takes away the burden of searching for ammo (though I personally don't have a problem with that), since the magazines would be replenished and it still forces the player to aim accurately in combat, unlike the excessive amount of ammo, because this process would take time.

The other common solution is the option to have at least one (maybe few) weaker weapon with unlimited ammo for cases of emergency.

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 02 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[Devos]

MrGone wrote...

I think the oddest argument people (in general, not here exactly) have for ammo is this idea of "making your shots count".

Uh I think having enemies trying to kill you is what makes people value their shots counting, not how much ammo you have left in reserve. Wouldn't you?

I entirely agree. The idea that ammo makes you shoot better is backwards. Being a better shot makes you shoot better. Your choice of gun in a given situation is much more down to which class you picked 20 or more hours ago than any tactical consideration relating to your ammo. How you shoot is down to your ability and wanting to win a fight.

So what does that leave the ammo mechanic adding?

[Varen Spectre]

Devos wrote...

I entirely agree. The idea that ammo makes you shoot better is backwards. Being a better shot makes you shoot better. Your choice of gun in a given situation is much more down to which class you picked 20 or more hours ago than any tactical consideration relating to your ammo. How you shoot is down to your ability and wanting to win a fight.

So what does that leave the ammo mechanic adding?

Hmmm... not completely true... of course, the desire to beat the opponents (and the game) is the most important factor in players' motivation to try hard and be efficient and of course there are far more important determinants of actual weapon preference in particular situation (like you said player's class, type of enemy, distance, etc.) but...

the amount of ammunition or lack thereof adds another nice little layer of difficulty and pressure on the player and complicates his / her decision making process. classic examples:

1. You have a powerful gun but only limited supplies of ammunition for it. Should you use it on incoming group of quite tough enemies or should you save it for the boss / even tougher enemies? Will there be any boss? Will there be any ammo? What should you do?

2. You have zoomed on your opponent's head with your sniper rifle. Now tell me. Do you feel the same pressure when you have another 10 rounds in your magazine (especially if you don't have to reload to shoot again) and when you have the last one?

I admit, not everyone might be influenced by the amount of ammo in those situations and most definitely not everyone likes that feeling when you just "can't miss". I do like it and I would like to see it my playthrough of ME 3 again. But if majority of ME players or developers think otherwise, I could live with plenty of ammo.     

[CajNatalie]

I don't think I'm in a minority when I say that I don't play games with the intention to get stressed.
Particularly when what stresses me contradicts previously established lore - otherwise there'd be a chance I'd just get over it, but the ammo thing... it'll never make sense, so it'll always be hanging there as a potential stress when I play ME2.

But as I've stated earlier... if there's a fallback in ME3, even if you lose accuracy and/or damage due to heat screwing your weapon up... I won't mind keeping crap thermal clip numbers. It'll make sense, so I'll get over it in a blink.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 03 mai 2011 - 04:14 .

[InvincibleHero]

I think the system is farily generous. I had to switch from the widow but with SMG I almost never ran dry. I switched as needed since Heavy pistol is good against armor SMG against shields etc. In ME2 the weapons are more than DPS. The only time I was backtracking and scrambling was in some areas with infinite repawns like with husks in the one misiion.

[Kileyan]

My problems with the cooling clips is that apparently cryo freeze and cryo bullets can freeze dozens of 100 kilogram bad guys, with a never ending amount of cooling magic.

Yet the combat arms engineers of all these advanced races, apparently haven't figure out how to use that cooling power to constantly keep guns cooled down.

Why are we carrying around dozens of clips and putting up with limited shots per coolant charge, when a single engineer can carry around enough cooling power to flash freeze a truck load of guns. Who in the world skipped that tech, and went backwards to 20th century clips? Is there some old crusty General, who is a fan of old war movies and wanted to see his soldiers having to reload every couple seconds like his old movie heroes?

Modifié par Kileyan, 03 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[InvincibleHero]

Kileyan wrote...

My problems with the cooling clips is that apparently cryo freeze and cryo bullets can freeze dozens of 100 kilogram bad guys, with a never ending amount of cooling magic.

Yet the combat arms engineers of all these advanced races, apparently haven't figure out how to use that cooling power to constantly keep guns cooled down.

Why are we carrying around dozens of clips and putting up with limited shots per coolant charge, when a single engineer can carry around enough cooling power to flash freeze a truck load of guns. Who in the world skipped that tech, and went backwards to 20th century clips? Is there some old crusty General, who is a fan of old war movies and wanted to see his soldiers having to reload every couple seconds like his old movie heroes?

How do they equate? Bullets that release a cryogenic agent in explosive fashion would not work inside of a gun with moving parts. It has to be a passive agent that collects the heat and ejects it. So have your engineer hoze you down with some absolute zero agent just to cool your gun and let me know how that works out for you.

[Kileyan]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

My problems with the cooling clips is that apparently cryo freeze and cryo bullets can freeze dozens of 100 kilogram bad guys, with a never ending amount of cooling magic.

Yet the combat arms engineers of all these advanced races, apparently haven't figure out how to use that cooling power to constantly keep guns cooled down.

Why are we carrying around dozens of clips and putting up with limited shots per coolant charge, when a single engineer can carry around enough cooling power to flash freeze a truck load of guns. Who in the world skipped that tech, and went backwards to 20th century clips? Is there some old crusty General, who is a fan of old war movies and wanted to see his soldiers having to reload every couple seconds like his old movie heroes?

How do they equate? Bullets that release a cryogenic agent in explosive fashion would not work inside of a gun with moving parts. It has to be a passive agent that collects the heat and ejects it. So have your engineer hoze you down with some absolute zero agent just to cool your gun and let me know how that works out for you.

Oh please, extrapolate the tech to cool weapons if you have access to that much ability to cool large objects. Of course I wasn't talking about spraying a high tech fire extinguisher at squad mates or guns. For example, no one should run out of ammo in a sense that ammo is infinite for a ME2 length encounter, when a single engineer can apparently carry enough cooling ability to freeze truck loads or large objects, or where a single sliver of metal can carry enough coolant to freeze a man sized object.

[InvincibleHero]

Kileyan wrote...

Oh please, extrapolate the tech to cool weapons if you have access to that much ability to cool large objects. Of course I wasn't talking about spraying a high tech fire extinguisher at squad mates or guns. For example, no one should run out of ammo in a sense that ammo is infinite for a ME2 length encounter, when a single engineer can apparently carry enough cooling ability to freeze truck loads or large objects, or where a single sliver of metal can carry enough coolant to freeze a man sized object.

The "bullet" is the means of delivery and the impact may well be a necessary component. It is perhaps the catalyst and you could not do that inside the gun even on a smaller scale. It also was unreliable. I had to fire dozens of shots to freeze and sometimes they died before they even became an icicle. Very unreliable tech and I never used the HW because of that.
 
Where are you going to get constant replenishing coolant? Hey it's just a heat sink what do you know only less efficient and more dangerous to use.

[Kileyan]

InvincibleHero wrote...



Where are you going to get constant replenishing coolant? Hey it's just a heat sink what do you know only less efficient and more dangerous to use.

That was the point of the first post, if we have the ability to freeze large object constantly with some infinite cooling power magic, why can't we use it as a more focused tech to cool guns?(we already have infinite replenishing coolant as far as this game is concerned)

You are stuck on these clips that are meant to emulate reloading on modern shooters as the only possible way for these people to design a gun. I am talking about why weren't the guns designed from the ground up to take advantage of this apparently huge supply of cooling ability. There is no reason that the cryo ability must be a huge insta freeze blast, and not a more controlled cooling mechanism.

Imagine the large pistol. Give it a revolver style cylinder, but instead of that cylinder holding the ammo, it cycle the cooling 'rods' every few shots, those in rotation are cooled and reused.

Dunno I just find it silly cryo powers can cool things so much, but it can't be used in a world where the only limitations of the guns are keeping them cooled!

Now I am not competely obstinate, I realize these thing were simply included because Bioware liked ammo restrictions and reloading mechanics:) edited oops

Modifié par Kileyan, 03 mai 2011 - 06:07 .

[Xerxes52]

In some parts of the SM your ammo would automatically restore itself after combat encounters.

Personally I think this would be a good thing to implement in ME3.

[lolwut666]

ME2's ammo system can't be "bad", because it's the same ammo system found in nearly every other shooter and that has been in use for decades.

This thread's title should read "Why ME2's ammo system is not what I want".

[Crimson_D-bag]

clips all the way, unlimited ammo in me1 was pretty cheesy and having clips forced u to have better aim and actually use all the different weapon types your character was given. it made the game more tactical for me, although with an infiltrators 2 sec slow down and a couple sniper rifle upgrades it was all OHK head shots for me, then u have your smg, then u have your pistol, no big deal.

[bald man in a boat]

lolwut666 wrote...

This thread's title should read "Why ME2's ammo system is not what I want".

This.

[Kronner]

lolwut666 wrote...

ME2's ammo system can't be "bad", because it's the same ammo system found in nearly every other shooter and that has been in use for decades.

This thread's title should read "Why ME2's ammo system is not what I want".

Agreed.

For the record, I think argument listed as no.1 (defending ammo clips) in the OP is valid.

Modifié par Kronner, 03 mai 2011 - 07:37 .

[Shallina]

How can the collectors drop thermal clips ? Completly ridiculous... Those universal thermal clip is the worse part of ME2. How to break a universe and make it a dumb shooter. Well put things wich has absolutly no reason of existannce and are 100% stupid.

Like the universal thermal clips that are in fact amnunition. I hope the one who designed this horror has no say in ME3. Universal amnunition , even  for the collectors... Completly ridiculous.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[lolwut666]

Well, Collectors drop thermal clips for the same reason geth and turians dropped human and quarian armors in the first game.

The clips are not *really* there; their sole purpose is to replenish your ammo because you need it.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 09:37 .

[fchopin]

If they use ammo clips that you pick up from the ground then it’s a no to preorder from me.

[Dave666]

I still reckon that Shep was resurrected on April 1st and that Cerberus are playing a huge April Fool's Day prank on him/her. Lets face it, Shep is the only one that needs Thermal Clips, everyone else from enemies to squaddies seem to be using the ME:1 style infinite ammo system.

[lolwut666]

What's funny is that a lot of these people complaining about the thermal clips also advocate in favor of the return ME1's looting system.

I mean, sure it's odd when enemies drop thermal clips, but a krogan drops a quarian armor upon death that makes perfect sense.

[Shallina]

krogan should drop krogan armor, but it's not as bad as the thermal clip that only shepard use when other have infinite amnution and that even the collector got normalised weapon.