22 réponses à ce sujet

[Galikraun]

I don't know whether this development is a bug or not, but it sure seems like one. That, or poor plotting.
Consider.
My Hawke sided against Aveline and her corrupt, elf-raping guardsmen, pledging support to the Arishok and the elven vigilantes under his protection. What's more, my Hawke backed the Arishok at every opportunity, informed him of every Qunari loss, and agreed with his every claim.
So...
How does the Arishok receive his most potent ally in the city? Hurl javelins at Hawke. That's right. At Hawke. As if the Qunari had far too many supporters from the Alienage! Understandably, Hawke is shown reeling from betrayal unforeseen. She must make her way through the city killing off the very people she has publicly sworn to defend.
Even more infuriating, after my Hawke surrendered Isabella to the Qunari, the Arishok provided no explanation for his treachery. Did anyone else find this turn-of-events as unmotivated and frustrating as I did?

[Maladismal]

Galikraun wrote...

I don't know whether this development is a bug or not, but it sure seems like one. That, or poor plotting.
Consider.
My Hawke sided against Aveline and her corrupt, elf-raping guardsmen, pledging support to the Arishok and the elven vigilantes under his protection. What's more, my Hawke backed the Arishok at every opportunity, informed him of every Qunari loss, and agreed with his every claim.
So...
How does the Arishok receive his most potent ally in the city? Hurl javelins at Hawke. That's right. At Hawke. As if the Qunari had far too many supporters from the Alienage! Understandably, Hawke is shown reeling from betrayal unforeseen. She must make her way through the city killing off the very people she has publicly sworn to defend.
Even more infuriating, after my Hawke surrendered Isabella to the Qunari, the Arishok provided no explanation for his treachery. Did anyone else find this turn-of-events as unmotivated and frustrating as I did?

No, the rest of us were killing them with glee as we recognized them as the hypocritical thugs they are.

[blothulfur]

In my mind i'm saying Varric's talking a big load of awesome and I buggered off to Par Vollen with 'orny ary and the lads, this framed narrative stuff can work for me as well.

Hell Leliana superglued her head back on so i'm not sticking to the script either.

[Amagoi]

Hawke isn't the Arishok's ally, because Hawke is not Qunari. To the Arishok, your Hawke would be the most sensible and respectable bas in the city. But he's still a bas. His explanation for why he did what he did was that Kirkwall was a sick city. By killing the nobles and the Viscount, and generally effing up the joint, he thought he was making the city better.

Granted, warfare is all the Arishok knows. He's not a diplomat or a teacher of the Qun. War is all he knows, and in the end the Qunari are still have a Blue-and-Orange morality. We don't have a frame of reference really on what he was doing.

But c'mon, you gave up Isa? My first Hawke never did, and I feel that the Arishok respected the decision because it was Hawke looking after his own despite their flaws and transgressions.

[Cutlass Jack]

Hawke isn't an ally. Hawke is the only opponent worthy of the Arishok's respect in the city.

You'll notice none of the Javelins came close to hitting Hawke. Not accidental.

But as far as I'm concerned, once the Vicount's head rolled down the stairs, he lost whatever chance he had to leave the city with his own still attached.

[AlexXIV]

Amagoi wrote...

Hawke isn't the Arishok's ally, because Hawke is not Qunari. To the Arishok, your Hawke would be the most sensible and respectable bas in the city. But he's still a bas. His explanation for why he did what he did was that Kirkwall was a sick city. By killing the nobles and the Viscount, and generally effing up the joint, he thought he was making the city better.

Granted, warfare is all the Arishok knows. He's not a diplomat or a teacher of the Qun. War is all he knows, and in the end the Qunari are still have a Blue-and-Orange morality. We don't have a frame of reference really on what he was doing.

But c'mon, you gave up Isa? My first Hawke never did, and I feel that the Arishok respected the decision because it was Hawke looking after his own despite their flaws and transgressions.

Even the saarebas says that Hawke is closer to the qun than he/she thinks if you pick the right choices. And that his/her role would not change much. So just imagine for a moment. Hawke would have asked the Arishok to join the Qun, or the Arishok would have asked Hawke. I mean they accept random city elves to bolster their ranks, why not Hawke, the most respected living being in Kirkwall? I tell you why. It is not the demand of the plot.

Well the game is basically full of these things, and it is discussed on this board alot. You can find a dozen threads about things like this where the only real answer is, the story is streamlined. So whether Hawke agrees with the Qun or not, he/she would never join the Qunari. Maybe this makes no sense, maybe the whole game doesn't.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Kasces]

It's not strange at all. You are not his ally. Why? Because the Arishok doesn't see you as one. You are bas, and unless you actually converted to the Qun, which Hawke cannot do, you are still bas. Worthy? Maybe. Respectable? Yes. The most sensible cat in the city? Definately. That however does not change what you are, only how high he values you personally. You are still a kitten that needs to be strangled if in the way.

[Brawne]

Always fun to swat fundamentalist pompous asses.
In my first playthrough with my currently deleted rogue I had to give him Isabela because that gimp rogue had zero chance of going toe to toe with old Horny.
Second playthrough with my current Duelist rogue was payback time and old Horny got his pompous religious bragging and bravado shoved into his ass in 3 minutes.

[Plaintiff]

The Qunari don't have "allies". You are Qunari or you are not Qunari. Even if you are basalit-an, you are not of the Qun and that makes you an enemy by default. By merely exercising your free will you are opposing the basic premise of Qunari belief.

The reason they don't allow you to join the Qun is very obvious: once you do, the game would be over. The Qun is strict and leaves no room for interpretation. Dragon Age's story-telling method relies on giving the player the capability to shape events, even if only in a minor way, through their own choices. You think DA2 is a railroad? It would be much worse as a Qunari.

[Beerfish]

The Arishok was proven to be a sullen, incompetant, preachy, snarky tool well before the javelin toss episode.

[morbusswg]

At the cut scene after the episode in the Qunari compound, there are 2 Qunari dragging a woman off in high town. One of the Qunari says to you " I see the Arishok was not able to take you prisoner. Unfortunate" or something to that affect. You can read into that whatever you like. I took it to mean that he either A: had so much respect for me, he didn't want any of the other Qunari to kill me before he had a chance to, or B: he didn't want me to have the chance to cut through his troops like butter, and form a resistance. Not sure what that meant to any of the rest of you...?

[AlexXIV]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Qunari don't have "allies". You are Qunari or you are not Qunari. Even if you are basalit-an, you are not of the Qun and that makes you an enemy by default. By merely exercising your free will you are opposing the basic premise of Qunari belief.

The reason they don't allow you to join the Qun is very obvious: once you do, the game would be over. The Qun is strict and leaves no room for interpretation. Dragon Age's story-telling method relies on giving the player the capability to shape events, even if only in a minor way, through their own choices. You think DA2 is a railroad? It would be much worse as a Qunari.

Did you just make this up? The Qunari don't have allies? Give me a quote or I'll just assume you just invented a story. If my memory does not fail me a certain Sten of the Beresaad does have an 'ally', even one he calls kadan. If they are allowed to join forces with 'bas' for one cause, they can as well for another.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[AlexXIV]

morbusswg wrote...

At the cut scene after the episode in the Qunari compound, there are 2 Qunari dragging a woman off in high town. One of the Qunari says to you " I see the Arishok was not able to take you prisoner. Unfortunate" or something to that affect. You can read into that whatever you like. I took it to mean that he either A: had so much respect for me, he didn't want any of the other Qunari to kill me before he had a chance to, or B: he didn't want me to have the chance to cut through his troops like butter, and form a resistance. Not sure what that meant to any of the rest of you...?

Honestly, I think it is silly. And I don't like how the Qunari conflict is handled. First they attack you in the compound which is just dishonorable. Then they never even try to capture you. Nobody says 'Give up you are surrounded' or something. And I have for the life of mine no clue why the Qunari are dragging around a woman if there are templars and city guards to kill.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[morbusswg]

AlexXIV wrote...

morbusswg wrote...

At the cut scene after the episode in the Qunari compound, there are 2 Qunari dragging a woman off in high town. One of the Qunari says to you " I see the Arishok was not able to take you prisoner. Unfortunate" or something to that affect. You can read into that whatever you like. I took it to mean that he either A: had so much respect for me, he didn't want any of the other Qunari to kill me before he had a chance to, or B: he didn't want me to have the chance to cut through his troops like butter, and form a resistance. Not sure what that meant to any of the rest of you...?

Honestly, I think it is silly. And I don't like how the Qunari conflict is handled. First they attack you in the compound which is just dishonorable. Then they never even try to capture you. Nobody says 'Give up you are surrounded' or something. And I have for the life of mine no clue why the Qunari are dragging around a woman if there are templars and city guards to kill.

I wouldn't say it was "silly" , to me it illustrated that how things went down in the compound was not how the Arishok intended it to be. I'm sure he gave orders to his troops before the confrontation with Hawke/Aveline.. and yes, I agree about the city guards point.. I had asked in a previous thread if anyone had found a conversation in the game that explained away the absence of the city guard during the Qunari thing. Even Aveline commented on it when we made it to the Keep. It seems its a mystery.

[Galikraun]

I agree with AlexXIV. If the "Hero of Ferelden"--a bas if ever there was one--could earn the loyalty of a qunari sten, then so could Hawke. That is, if Hawke had any say in the matter....

[Plaintiff]

AlexXIV wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Qunari don't have "allies". You are Qunari or you are not Qunari. Even if you are basalit-an, you are not of the Qun and that makes you an enemy by default. By merely exercising your free will you are opposing the basic premise of Qunari belief.

The reason they don't allow you to join the Qun is very obvious: once you do, the game would be over. The Qun is strict and leaves no room for interpretation. Dragon Age's story-telling method relies on giving the player the capability to shape events, even if only in a minor way, through their own choices. You think DA2 is a railroad? It would be much worse as a Qunari.

Did you just make this up? The Qunari don't have allies? Give me a quote or I'll just assume you just invented a story. If my memory does not fail me a certain Sten of the Beresaad does have an 'ally', even one he calls kadan. If they are allowed to join forces with 'bas' for one cause, they can as well for another.

Sten makes it absolutely clear that he is travelling with the Warden out of a) debt and to satisfy his own mission for the Arishok. He may like the Warden on a personal level but the way he expresses it is more akin to an enemy worthy of respect, not a genuine friend. At the highest approval, the best you'll get is "I hope we do not meet on the field of battle". He doesn't want to kill you, but he will do it if the Qun demands. Hardly comforting.

The Qunari make no secret of the fact that their ultimate plan is the violent subjugation of all non-Qunari they find. The only thing stopping them at this juncture is a centuries-long war with Tevinter that has tied up most of their resources. They signed a treaty, yes, but Sten mentions this and also says that the Qunari have no intention of honoring it and only do so because it happens to suit their current purpose.

The Qunari may "join with" (more like use) bas if it suits them, they may respect them to a degree. But their terminology is extremely telling. "Bas" means 'thing", Basalit-an roughly translates to "thing worthy of respect", Kadan means "precious thing" but whatever the title, you are still a thing to them, an object. Not a person. Not on the same level as a fellow Qunari.

"Ally" is a political term, not a personal one, and it is not one the Qunari have any real use for. It refers to two sides joining together for mutual benefit, but as far as the Qunari are concerned, there is no benefit to "allying" with bas. The Arishok says, time and time again that he cares nothing for the internal squabbles of the city. He makes no distinction between "enemy" bas and "friendly" bas. When Hawke suggests that the Arishok help the Viscount, stating that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", the Arishok says "I don't fear the whole of them together". He doesn't want allies, nor does he think he needs them. He had no qualms about killing the viscount, despite the fact that he was Saemus's father and had done everything in his power to keep the peace in Kirkwall, which was more for the sake of the easily-outnumbered Qunari than anything else.

[MyKingdomCold]

Also, with Sten from Origins, doesn't he say something like he wouldn't want to meet the Hero of Ferelden on the battlefield? I don't remember it all, but if I'm not mistaken he meant that if the Qunari invade Ferelden he might have to fight the Hero of Ferelden.

[AlexXIV]

I wasn't going to go into semantics. The point is they can ally with bas if they feel the need. There is no Qunari law for not temporary siding with a 'bas'. If there was a law against it, Sten couldn't follow the Warden. And Sten is not in the Warden's dept. He wants to die when the Warden offers a mission of importance. The Warden does not free Sten, because he doesn't want to be freed, so it's not like Sten goes with the Warden out of thankfulness for being freed. He goes with the Warden because they have the same mission.

Well the thing with Sten's sword is different, he is obviously thankful in his Qunari way. But that's later, he follows the Warden without any sort of dept. It is more like a deal to be able to fulfill his mission to give the Arishok his answer. So 'bas' fighting with Qunari is a possibilty the Qun allows. And I think if a Sten can decide it, then an Arishok can also.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it's really more of the limitations of the plot. You can't join the Qunari. You can't join Thrask's splinter group. You can't just walk away and leave Kirkwall. You can't join the crazy demonologist mages to reestablish a new Tevinter Imperium. There is always a certain path that Hawke will always follow. Just like the Warden really. You just happen to notice more options that you can't take in this story.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[Captmorgan72]

Also, in addition to what everyone else have already said, Hawke is the only one the Arishok respects enough to challenge to a duel.  To answer your question about Justice, he's in Anders.

Modifié par Captmorgan72, 30 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I really wanted to like the Arishok. After initially not being fussed on Sten in Origins I grew to really like him so I was expecting to like the qunari in DA2. I thought the Arishok was okay at first, but then he was an arse that decided to get all up in Kirkwall's business just because someone had nicked his book. My Hawke wouldn't have wanted to join the Qun she would have preferred to kill the Qunari as soon as they started showing signs of being mental (but that also would have ruined the plot). I always tell Isabela she can keep the book and I never give her to the Arishok. Wish there was an option to keep the book after killing the Arishok, could just kill the rest of the qunari if the protest.

[BigEvil]

AlexXIV wrote...
And Sten is not in the Warden's dept.

Yeah, Sten's in a different department and he runs that department damn it. The Warden's in waste management, Sten's in Public Relations.

[Gabey5]

if you are not of the qun you are no friend to the qunari... no matter how many favors you do