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[andraip]

It's known that Ogres come from Broodmothers who were once female kossith.

It's also known that the first Qunari arrived on Thedas on 6:30 Steel.


So, I was wondering why Ogres existed in Thedas before the Arrival of the Qunari?
Since the 4th Blight ended at 5:20 Exalted, and in the opening cutscene in DAO (who shows the 4th Blight) you can actually see Ogres?
Why does it say in the Ogre Codex (who is optained when Hawke fights the Ogre in the beginning of DA2, or by the Warden in the end of the Tower of Ishal), which you get before the 5th Blight has really begun, that Ogres normally "only appear during a Blight" and "Up to a hundred of these creatures can accompany a darkspawn horde at any one time during a Blight"? How did the Historicians know of this if there were no Blight after the Qunari Arrival?

And if the Darkspawn already had captured female kossith, and turned the into Broodmothers, long before the Qunari arrived in Thedas, then how did the Darkspawn got to the Qunari homeland and how did the Ogres got to Thedas?
Unless the Darkspawn haven't build ships able to cross an ocean or found an underground tunnel that linked continents, how did this happened?


I really would appreceate some feedback (especially from BIOWARE)

[Amagoi]

They walked to Thedas from the Deep Roads?

[Captmorgan72]

You just discovered one of many holes in their storytelling is all.

[andraip]

Filament wrote...

He's answered this one before: "Good question!"

Thanks, I thougth that someone must have reached the same conclusions, but I could find a thread with it.

EDIT: couldn't find*

Modifié par andraip, 30 avril 2011 - 07:23 .

[andraip]

Filament wrote...

Click

thanks for the link

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've noticed in the past that Bioware doesn't always clarify if something is a deliberate mystery or a plothole. This sounds like one of those times.

[AlexXIV]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I've noticed in the past that Bioware doesn't always clarify if something is a deliberate mystery or a plothole. This sounds like one of those times.

Why would they say it is a plothole when there could be an explaination? And why would they give the explaination if it just would give people something to find new plotholes? I think not saying anything is the best choice. That way you can keep the question open with a shrug and a knowing look without stepping into trouble.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[Vukodlak]

Why do you assume 300 years ago was the first arrival of the Qunari?
If we assume the following is true.
Frst that Ogres are produced from Qunari broodmothers
and second that Ogres were present in previous blghts.

Then the only possible explanation is, Qunari arrived in Thedas centuries before the invasion of Pol Vollen. The existance of Ogres in Thedas during brevious blights is proof the Qunari first arrived far earlier then three centuries ago.

The first blight was 1,300 years ago. That's a long time. With four blghts nearly wiping out Thedeas it wouldn't have been difficult for an earlier expedition of Qunari to have reached Thedas and been destoryed by darkspawn with no one to remember them.  The Qunari could have been sending hornless memebers of there race to Thedas for centuries before the invaded Pol Vollen.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 30 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Codex mentions that 300 years ago was the first time that Qunari were reported in history. Presumably the existence of Ogres means that either isolated groups of Qunari arrived in Thedas first, or the Darkspawn presence extends in part to wherever the Qunari originally came from. Maybe the Deep Roads extend beneath the Amaranthine Ocean, or whatever direction the Qunari arrived from.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, I'd say two things...

First, this is a Codex entry, which BW has said time again is not necessarily written in stone canon, it just is what the writer of the book, in story, thought.

Second, its the first time in HISTORY they were reported. Sort of like most people think Columbus was the first European to land in North America, when in reality Lief Ericson and other European vikings had landed and established small settlements hundreds of years prior.

The Qunari, being military minded and calculating, would very likely not just show up on some foreign soil for the first time and begin attacking, against an unknown enemy in unknown terrain. At least, I wouldn't think.

[andraip]

Well, Fast Jimmy has a point, probably they would have sent scouts before invading, but maybe there weren't invading, but fleeing, from a Blight maybe, sure, the Qunari a fierce warriors, but only a Grey Warden can effectively kill a Archdemon. There is just one thing, for Broodmothers you need females, and warrios (so also scouts) can't be female by the Qun, but who knows...

As for a Deep Road connection... well it makes sense, since the Deep Roads are pretty deep, at least you can see lava and that.

Modifié par andraip, 02 mai 2011 - 10:18 .

[andraip]

mrsph wrote...

The cutscene animators probably just thought it looked cool and stuck them in there without thinking.

it's not just one cutscene, it's also the codex

e.g. During a Blight, most Grey Wardens recommend burning all darkspawn to ashes... "dead" ogres in particular.
or Up to a hundred of these creatures can accompany a darkspawn horde at any one time during a Blight
Problem is that if the Ogres came after the Qunari arrival then there was no Blight for them to know all this

[whogotsalami]

Actually Sten(Dragon Age:Origins) said to the Warden that he was sent with his Beressad to answer a question "What was the Blight". So unless the arishok thinks that the Blight and Darkspawn are completely different things then Darkspawn couldn't have appeared on this "Qunari land beyond ocean"

[andraip]

whogotsalami wrote...

Actually Sten(Dragon Age:Origins) said to the Warden that he was sent with his Beressad to answer a question "What was the Blight". So unless the arishok thinks that the Blight and Darkspawn are completely different things then Darkspawn couldn't have appeared on this "Qunari land beyond ocean"

Yeah, you're right, I remember (I think it was "What is the blight", dunno)

It could be that there were actually more then just one nation of kossith, and one got destroyed by a Blight, thus the Arishok couldn't know what a Blight is.

[PsychoBlonde]

andraip wrote...

It could be that there were actually more then just one nation of kossith, and one got destroyed by a Blight, thus the Arishok couldn't know what a Blight is.

This is quite possible.  Nowhere in the codex does it say that the kossith haven't been around for some time.  There may even be kossith populations that are native to Thedas, they just aren't Qunari because the Qun comes from somewhere across the Boeric Ocean.  Or the kossith might have been native to Thedas in antiquity but come into sharp conflict with pre-historic human populations (or the original Tevinter Imperium) and fared even worse than the elves.  Broodmothers may not age.  The ogre population might have been pretty much steady because the darkspawn only had a few ogre broodmothers and no means of getting more.  IIRC the codex does also say that ogres have become significantly more common recently.

There's more landmass to Thedas that isn't on the current map, after all, it's just blocked by mountain ranges and other natural barriers--but these wouldn't present much of a problem to dwarves and the deep roads may extend under those mountain ranges to the west.

I like this explanation the best, it requires the least amount of headdesk.

That would actually (in my mind) make a really awesome companion idea:  a kossith who is descended from a population that has never heard of the Qun.  I mean, think of all this problems such an individual would run across in Thedasian society.  People would make all sorts of weird assumptions about his/her intentions/ideas/purpose/whatever.  It'd also be a great opportunity to explore some of the ways the kossith are racially different instead of just ideologically different, and also perhaps if there is a reason why the kossith *need* the Qun, so that their philosophical system is actually the only one that ultimately works for them.  You could have a whole character arc about this person encountering the Qun for the first time (not to mention everything else in Thedas), learning about it, perhaps being horrified or intrigued or whatever, maybe deciding to join the Qun, maybe becoming a harsh critic, all sorts of possibilities.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 01 mai 2011 - 07:29 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Most people in Thedas think of the Kossith race as "Qunari" If there was knowledge of them before the Steel Age, there would have been a mention of it.

[PsychoBlonde]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Most people in Thedas think of the Kossith race as "Qunari" If there was knowledge of them before the Steel Age, there would have been a mention of it.

I think you vastly overestimate the level of education and knowledge present in Thedas at that time.  Keep in mind that the original Tevinter Imperium is *pre-history* to these people.  Nobody really knows exactly what happened to Arlathan, for instance.  There could EASILY have been kossith populations on Thedas during or prior to the Imperium with no remaining record of them.  Heck, people may be even be living in the ruins of former kossith civilization and not know that the people who built it weren't human.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There are many records of the ancient Tevinter Imperium in history. Prehistory would have been around the origins of Tevinter. Yes there COULD have been some that far back I suppose but by the time The First Blight had begun there's a relatively clear picture of what was going on back then. In fact there are records of even more ancient times. I'd find it hard believe that there would be legends of Arlathan that survived but no traces or stories or legends of giant horned people.

[andraip]

The codex entry says that at 6:30 Steel QUNARI were first sighted, it does not say that there were no knowledge of kossith presence in Thedas before, but this explanation would be a little to cheap.

It's far more likely that simply no one noticed the kossith, like that there lived in placed the Tevinter Imperium didn't know, no one knows what lies beyond the Korcari Wilds for example.
It could also be that during the First Blight an Qunari/kossith expedition arrived in Thedas, but no one noticed it because there were occupied by the Blight, then this expedition got attacked by Darkspawn and the few females that were there got transformed and thus explain that there are only few Ogres.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 IIRC the codex does also say that ogres have become significantly more common recently.

can't remeber reading this, in which codex did you read it?

It would be an terrifying thoght, a Blight which doesn't have hundreds of Ogres, but thousends or even tens of thousends Ogres...

[Foolsfolly]

It's called a plot inconsistency.

In this case, I'd say it's 2 inconsistencies. The codex writer and the cutscene animator both forgot. The writer for Sten remembered. Sten's whole mission is to figure out what a Blight is....when he gets jumped by the Blight.

[Herr Uhl]

simfamSP wrote...

It's hard to assume anything. But really, do you think the Qunari would be reckless enough to not spy on their targets for a few hundred years?

Yes.