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[Apollo Starflare]

I don't really see how hard it is to believe that there were some Kossith/Qunari present in the North or otherwise within reach of the Darkspawn that could have stayed removed from most of the peoples of Thedas in that time. That going hand in hand with the relative lack of recorded details from back then means that some small colonies of them could easily slip through the cracks.

Arlathan was a massive city and the centre of a whole race which at one point ruled Thedas. There is no comparison to a potential couple of colonies of Horned Giants who could have been remembered in folk stories and such by groups of people far away from the two areas of Thedas we have currently been to.

[andraip]

Herr Uhl wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

It's hard to assume anything. But really, do you think the Qunari would be reckless enough to not spy on their targets for a few hundred years?

Yes.

a few hundred years seens too much, but I assume no one plans an full scale invasion without even knowing if there is something to be invaded

[Urazz]

I always assumed that the darkspawn did light raids on the Qunari and probably got female Qunari that way. Most of the raids probably weren't enough to cause worry for the Qunari on Thedas but my guess is that the raids increased and became stronger the closer to the blight that the Arishok felt it was worth investigating before the darkspawn became a true threat.

[Alex Kershaw]

Plot hole. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Rifneno]

Plot hole does seem most likely.  Not to say Bioware is to "blame."  When you have as big a story as they've got here, there's bound to be a few inconsistencies.

If not a plot hole though, perhaps the qunari come from a place that darkspawn have limited access to.  We already know there's at least two dimensions: the mortal realm and the fade.  It's entirely possible there's more.  I doubt the idea of "they're from another dimension!" will be embraced by DA's fanbase but it does make some degree of sense.  If they're from another type of mortal realm, it's possible a few slipped through a Bermuda Triangle of sorts and the darkspawn nabbed them for broodmotherage long before the first full scale invasion.

Or, here's a slightly less insane possibility.  What if we're making assumptions on the wrong part of this equation?  What if the type of darkspawn a broodmother produces isn't necessarily based on their initial race?  Take The Mother from DAA for instance.  She started producing a new type of darkspawn after the Architect made her sentient.  Obviously we don't know exactly what his ritual entails but I have very serious doubts it changed her base DNA that much.  It's not like anyone has had a team of scientists observing and studying broodmothers.  You find one, you hit it until either you or it stops breathing.  It's quite possible we're working on a faulty assumption.

At the least, yay for this thread answering something I've been wondering: "What do you call a qunari if you don't care about their religion?"  Kossith, huh?

[Ndutz]

This question baffles me at first too when i was playing origin but i just assumed that Ogres are new addition to the Darkspawn family that doesn't emerge until after the first Qunari war. Meaning there were no Ogres in previous Blight only on the fifth.
However they have been sighted before the blight as a part of Regular Darkspawn Raid, that's why Thedas know they exist..

[andraip]

Plot hole does seem most likely.  Not to say Bioware is to "blame."  When you have as big a story as they've got here, there's bound to be a few inconsistencies.

I just would be happier if Bioware either admits that they made an mistake or that they say that it will be explained further in the series.

If not a plot hole though, perhaps the qunari come from a place that darkspawn have limited access to.  We already know there's at least two dimensions: the mortal realm and the fade.  It's entirely possible there's more.  I doubt the idea of "they're from another dimension!" will be embraced by DA's fanbase but it does make some degree of sense.  If they're from another type of mortal realm, it's possible a few slipped through a Bermuda Triangle of sorts and the darkspawn nabbed them for broodmotherage long before the first full scale invasion.

No need to put the Qunari Homeland on another realm. Thedas is just one continent, and probably there a more.

Or, here's a slightly less insane possibility.  What if we're making assumptions on the wrong part of this equation?  What if the type of darkspawn a broodmother produces isn't necessarily based on their initial race?  Take The Mother from DAA for instance.  She started producing a new type of darkspawn after the Architect made her sentient.  Obviously we don't know exactly what his ritual entails but I have very serious doubts it changed her base DNA that much.  It's not like anyone has had a team of scientists observing and studying broodmothers.  You find one, you hit it until either you or it stops breathing.  It's quite possible we're working on a faulty assumption.

True. It's possible, but it is also clearly stated in the Codex that Ogres come from Qunari Broodmothers, but no one knows if it really is true what the Codex says...

At the least, yay for this thread answering something I've been wondering: "What do you call a qunari if you don't care about their religion?"  Kossith, huh?

Yeah
anyway a Qunari is a follower of the Qun (kossith, elves, humans...), but normally only used to reffer to the kossith

Modifié par andraip, 01 mai 2011 - 05:28 .

[andraip]

Ndutz wrote...

This question baffles me at first too when i was playing origin but i just assumed that Ogres are new addition to the Darkspawn family that doesn't emerge until after the first Qunari war. Meaning there were no Ogres in previous Blight only on the fifth.
However they have been sighted before the blight as a part of Regular Darkspawn Raid, that's why Thedas know they exist..

Sure, but how can Thedas now that they normally only appear during a Blight, and then even knowing how many ogres are there during a Blight?

Anyway, there is still this cutscene...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Codex says that ogres are "traditionally only seen duirng a Blight," so I think that implies they have been seen in Darkspawn raids for many centuries perhaps even long before the Fourth Blight.

simfamSP wrote...

It's hard to assume anything. But really, do you think the Qunari would be reckless enough to not spy on their targets for a few hundred years?

There have been several points in history where large groups of people have migrated to another part of the world, like when Turks arrived in the Middle East from Central Asia, or when european powers colonized North and South America. I think century long spying campaigns usually aren't invovled.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 mai 2011 - 06:13 .

[ajm317]

Well obviously the real answer is that there was probably poor communication at Bioware when the whole thing was being drawn up in DAO and someone goofed.

That said, here's my potential in game explanation.

We know that the Qunari come from across the ocean. We know that no one in Thedas had really seen any Kossith before that (I hope, would be lame if Bioware came back and said Kossith were in Thedas before the Qunari invasion). We also know that the Qunari have no real knowledge of the Darkspawn.

So what is needed is a way for the Darkspawn to come into contact with Kossith who are not Qunari, but the rest of Thedas does not.

If you look at the map of Thedas the landmass extends beyond the borders of the continent, much like the Europe/Asia situation. Specifically in the north Thedas is bounded by what appears to be a jungle type area known as The Donarks.

I posit the explanation that non-Qunari Kossith live beyond The Donarks. The rest of Thedas is unaware of this because The Donarks are impassable. The Darkspawn however travel there via the Deep Roads, so the surface vegetation is not a consideration.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We actually aren't certain exactly where the Qunari came from. Only that they came in ships to Par Vollen. It's possible that the path beyond the Dornaks leads to the original qunari homeland aswell.

[Thirdpres]

Early in DA's development some of the developers, David Gaider is one of them if memory serves, talked to us about the dark spawn and made mention that not all of the creatures that came in a blight were necessarily dark spawn but allies. Ogres were such allies from what was mentioned.

This was years ago. I am guessing a decision was made at some point where the all creatures of the blight were subsumed under the dark spawn banner but a proper, well thought-out, explanation for how ogres came about was forgotten.

I don't know if this will help but this is what I remember from way back from early DA's development days.

[Fast Jimmy]

Thirdpres wrote...

Early in DA's development some of the developers, David Gaider is one of them if memory serves, talked to us about the dark spawn and made mention that not all of the creatures that came in a blight were necessarily dark spawn but allies. Ogres were such allies from what was mentioned.

This was years ago. I am guessing a decision was made at some point where the all creatures of the blight were subsumed under the dark spawn banner but a proper, well thought-out, explanation for how ogres came about was forgotten.

I don't know if this will help but this is what I remember from way back from early DA's development days.

In light of this, that Ogres aren't really darkspawn, could it be possible that the horned, grey skinned Kossith are descended from Ogres, and not vice versa? While I know DAO's codex about Broodmothers states Qunari broodmothers give birth to Ogres, could it be that the darkspawn taint causes the kossith broodmother to give birth to offspring that revert to their previous Ogre roots?

I get the feeling I'm grasping for threads here, when really it is likely just a timeline issue.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I would think that the idea that Ogres aren't real darkspawn isn't still the case in the final version of the games' lore.

[WhiteKnyght]

andraip wrote...

It's known that Ogres come from Broodmothers who were once female kossith.

It's also known that the first Qunari arrived on Thedas on 6:30 Steel.


So, I was wondering why Ogres existed in Thedas before the Arrival of the Qunari?
Since the 4th Blight ended at 5:20 Exalted, and in the opening cutscene in DAO (who shows the 4th Blight) you can actually see Ogres?
Why does it say in the Ogre Codex (who is optained when Hawke fights the Ogre in the beginning of DA2, or by the Warden in the end of the Tower of Ishal), which you get before the 5th Blight has really begun, that Ogres normally "only appear during a Blight" and "Up to a hundred of these creatures can accompany a darkspawn horde at any one time during a Blight"? How did the Historicians know of this if there were no Blight after the Qunari Arrival?

And if the Darkspawn already had captured female kossith, and turned the into Broodmothers, long before the Qunari arrived in Thedas, then how did the Darkspawn got to the Qunari homeland and how did the Ogres got to Thedas?
Unless the Darkspawn haven't build ships able to cross an ocean or found an underground tunnel that linked continents, how did this happened?


I really would appreceate some feedback (especially from BIOWARE)

Who said the Darkspawn only appear in Thedas? The Deep Roads may span the length of Thedas, but Darkspawn spend centuries tunneling and looking for the old gods. A Female Kossith could have had a run of bad luck.

[TEWR]

The Qunari have bards. Didn't Sten say as much in banter with Leliana?

[Thirdpres]

Another thing to remember is that in-game knowledge, or lore, is not always accurate. What you read in these lore tidbits in any of the games might be what scholars believe but not necessarily the truth. Just keep this in mind when you are looking this subject and other subjects about DA back-story, lore, etc.

[andraip]

Thirdpres wrote...

Early in DA's development some of the developers, David Gaider is one of them if memory serves, talked to us about the dark spawn and made mention that not all of the creatures that came in a blight were necessarily dark spawn but allies. Ogres were such allies from what was mentioned.

This was years ago. I am guessing a decision was made at some point where the all creatures of the blight were subsumed under the dark spawn banner but a proper, well thought-out, explanation for how ogres came about was forgotten.

I don't know if this will help but this is what I remember from way back from early DA's development days.

Interresting.
This explains a lot. So first Ogres and Kossith weren't related, but someone must have thought that a Dwarven Broodmother is for ****s, and an Ogre Broodmother would be really badass, and so decided, well Ogres come from Qunari since there aren't any other giants.
I hope that Bioware will put a good explanation for this in an DLC or DA3

[andraip]

So, for now, there are mainly 3 plausible explanations.

1) some kossith lived in remotly places in Thedas during the time of the First Blight.

2) during the First Blight some darkspawn found the Qunari homeland (may it be in Thedas or on another continent) throught the Deeproads.

3) an Qunari expedition arrived in Thedas during the First Blight and got killed by Darkspawn before there was major notice of them.


All those three explanations would explain the Ogre presence before the Qunari arrival, since it gives the Darkspawn a chance to capture kossith females.

[David Gaider]

Since this question arises again, a few points:

1) The Ogres look akin to the way we originally intended the Qunari to look. It was the Qunari who initially changed, not the Ogres. The new Qunari appearance is, in fact, closer to our original vision for them.

2) The "allies" I referred to way back in the day are ghouls. Ogres are not ghouls.

3) Ogres have indeed appeared in previous Blights, prior to the arrival of the Qunari at Par Vollen. This is not a mistake. I am not, however, going to give you the answer that explains this-- yet. If anyone wishes to prefer to think of this as a plot-hole until then, feel free. The phrase "plot-hole" gets thrown around a lot these days, so why should it be any different here?

[Apollo Starflare]

David Gaider wrote...

3) Ogres have indeed appeared in previous Blights, prior to the arrival of the Qunari at Par Vollen. This is not a mistake. I am not, however, going to give you the answer that explains this-- yet. If anyone wishes to prefer to think of this as a plot-hole until then, feel free. The phrase "plot-hole" gets thrown around a lot these days, so why should it be any different here?

This makes me very excited about potentially getting further details on the Qunari/Kossith and their history at some point in the future. DA2 expanded our knowledge of them nicely, but visit to Par Vollen please! :innocent:

[Foolsfolly]

So the Deep Roads extended into Par Vollen (and/or father in the Qunari realm) OR the Qunari were hidden somewhere in Thedas.

Still odd that they didn't know what a Blight was.

[andraip]

David Gaider wrote...

3) Ogres have indeed appeared in previous Blights, prior to the arrival of the Qunari at Par Vollen. This is not a mistake. I am not, however, going to give you the answer that explains this-- yet. If anyone wishes to prefer to think of this as a plot-hole until then, feel free. The phrase "plot-hole" gets thrown around a lot these days, so why should it be any different here?

Thanks, I appreaciate you taking the time answering to my thread, thanks again (I know I'm thanking to much, I meant it though ).
I'm really hoping that this "yet" meens soon, like DA3 or DA2 - Expansion, and not DA64 or something  like it

[blothulfur]

Ooooh rampant speculation time then, entire continents have fallen to the darkspawn and the Arishok sent Sten and the lads to see if these are the same monsters that forced the the qunari to become who they are in an endless war and eventually flee and seek new lands to settle.

The kossith (kosathi?) are all tainted and can only hold back the transformation into Ogres through the rigid mental conditioning of the Qun, Stens rage at the farmhouse he awoke in in origins was his true nature coming to the fore.

Gods holy trousers I love a lore puzzle.

[_Aine_]

David Gaider wrote...

Since this question arises again, a few points:

1) The Ogres look akin to the way we originally intended the Qunari to look. It was the Qunari who initially changed, not the Ogres. The new Qunari appearance is, in fact, closer to our original vision for them.

2) The "allies" I referred to way back in the day are ghouls. Ogres are not ghouls.

3) Ogres have indeed appeared in previous Blights, prior to the arrival of the Qunari at Par Vollen. This is not a mistake. I am not, however, going to give you the answer that explains this-- yet. If anyone wishes to prefer to think of this as a plot-hole until then, feel free. The phrase "plot-hole" gets thrown around a lot these days, so why should it be any different here?

Hmmm. Interesting, that.  

WIll have to ponder that one.  Have to say though, I am not-so-secretly glad it may imply we get more Qunari stuff in the future!