93 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

2kgnsiika wrote...

You can't redefine what Paragon and Renegade mean in the ME universe. If some action gives you only Paragon points, then it is by definition a Paragon thing to do. You can't try to create a sort of a priori Renegade logic that prescibes what a "True" Renegade must do regardless of whether it gives you Paragon or Renegade points.

Which is to say that being a Renegade is not ultimately the same thing as being ruthless, merciless, efficient, uncompromising, a risk taker, etc. While there's no doubt that the devs try to make Renegade action conform to some sort of logic, the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

What you mean by "Pure" Renegade is therefore something else than Renegade.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

[SennenScale]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

I think Paragon and Renegade points are awarded purely case-by-case rather than trying for overall consistency. There are some jarring moments for both, admittedly. 'I'll break your legs if you don't ease up,' is a little odd.

[javierabegazo]

Lol, this is pretty freakin' awesome, I'm going to make a new Mass Effect playthrough in honor of this.

[aimlessgun]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...
*snip*
the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

Well said Dean.

There's 'Renegade', and then there's renegade. 'Renegade' actions as the game defines cover a number of things, but I think if you want to roleplay a consistent renegade youre not going pick every 'Renegade' option.

This post is a polemic, after all, and I'm hoping people come up with some other cohesive and interesting visions for what a renegade is. So far the other big renegade type is the "doesn't give a ****" renegade (I think?).

[aimlessgun]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
Seems a bit ambiguous.. are we
defining this 'Renegade motive' as acting to achieve best outcome for
self, for the human race or for the galaxy?

Good question. The character I'm outlining here is based on a mix of human and self interest. This means that the survival of the galaxy is important because humans are in the galaxy, but if for example the rest of the galaxy could be sacrificed to save humanity, the option would be given serious consideration.

corporal doody wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 I think you missed the point of the thread

a true renegade doesnt care if he missed something!

Well played sir. Well played.

dreman9999 wrote...
This is the true "Renegade's Manifesto...
With it's own theme song....

Epic.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 01 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

[Sebby]

SennenScale wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

I think Paragon and Renegade points are awarded purely case-by-case rather than trying for overall consistency. There are some jarring moments for both, admittedly. 'I'll break your legs if you don't ease up,' is a little odd.

Yep, on one hand Renegade can be ruthless against the criminals and the other he's intimidating people for their lunch money.

Modifié par Seboist, 01 mai 2011 - 05:31 .

[dreman9999]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

True Renegade manifesto :

1.Do everything you can to chose the most childlike dimwitted solution to Any problem because you think that will make you seem cool, Edgy and rebellious.

2. Spend the rest of your day looking for justifications for your actions.

3. Profit?

1.Do everything you can to chose the most childlike dimwitted solution to Any problem because you think that will make you seem cool, Edgy and rebellious.

*Shoots Anacronian Stryx  in the head.

2. Spend the rest of your day looking for justifications for your actions.

"Anacronian Stryx  was a bad, bad man..."

3. Profit?

*Goes up Anacronian Stryx body and takes his wallet.*

[aimlessgun]

^@dreman: ROFL


The rachni decision seems the most contentious, and I accept the arguments against saving them, as they are based on hardheaded risk/reward calculations where people simply have different evaluations. The important thing is that the true renegade makes these calculations without sentiment or bias towards any artificial moral blocks that might get in the way of beating the reapers.

Saphra Deden wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...


'Bad' scenario that really isn't that bad: dangerous bug race that terrorizes the other council races, sowing chaos in the galaxy. Chaos is good for newcomers aka humans.

Oh yes, an unstable and aggressive rival power erupting right in our back yard will just be dandy. Why don't you uplift the krogan again while you're at it? They'd do the same thing.

You should aid the Geth Heretics. If they were more powerful they'd spread even more chaos and strife too. Same with the batarians.

You've got your work cut-out for you. Don't stop at just the rachni.

I think you're overestimating the danger of the rachni. If you leak out the fact they're back before they can build up, you should be able to limit the scale of the conflict.

GodWood wrote...

-The true renegade keeps the genophage cure data, so they can use it as leverage against the council races.

Personally
I'd rather keep Wrex's order in place so I can have a unified krogan
army and not have krogan pillaging the galaxy post Reaper War.

I was envisioning having the cure but not deploying it. Hopefully the turian and salarian governments won't know I'm not willing to use it, so I can still use it as a stick to beat them with, while the krogan won't know that I have it, so they aren't clamoring for it's deployment. It would be a tricky game but doable I think.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 01 mai 2011 - 05:30 .

[TheRealIncarnal]

Personally, I think that playing by the R/P points is missing the point of Mass Effect. Heck, in my "personal cannon" Shepard has maxed out the Renegade meter in both ME and ME2, but he also has about half a meter in Paragon. It just depends on if you're being rebellious or simply saying "I have a job to do and I am not going to let B.S. slow me down or force me to compromise." that version of Renegade is about a deep comittment to saving the Galaxy. For instance, is a Justicar a Paragon or a Renegade?

Which is the nice thing about the ME series. Renegade isn't just kicking puppies while Paragon isn't just helping little old ladies cross the street, it boils down to a broad philosophy that your character follows. For example you get Renegade points for both punching the reporter and making her look like an idiot for questioning your leadership.

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 01 mai 2011 - 05:40 .

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

You can't redefine what Paragon and Renegade mean in the ME universe. If some action gives you only Paragon points, then it is by definition a Paragon thing to do. You can't try to create a sort of a priori Renegade logic that prescibes what a "True" Renegade must do regardless of whether it gives you Paragon or Renegade points.

Which is to say that being a Renegade is not ultimately the same thing as being ruthless, merciless, efficient, uncompromising, a risk taker, etc. While there's no doubt that the devs try to make Renegade action conform to some sort of logic, the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

What you mean by "Pure" Renegade is therefore something else than Renegade.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

Think about it this way. Sheperd no matter what is an agent of Order and you do it in anyway possible.  You can be kinder and nicer about it and more hepling people. Or you can be more blunt and immediat about it and do things in a way that is about the group needs over the indivuals need or about your needs that help you maintain order.  

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[ReallyRue]

I think 'paragon' and 'renegade' are too broad to be used as a general moral code. For instance, there isn't a set definition of the type of moral code (outside of the game mechanics). So I could say renegade is mostly just defined by ruthlessness and a working outside of the law/rules, but within that you could have a morality like in the OP, or reach completely the opposite decisions.

[SennenScale]

Seboist wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

I think Paragon and Renegade points are awarded purely case-by-case rather than trying for overall consistency. There are some jarring moments for both, admittedly. 'I'll break your legs if you don't ease up,' is a little odd.

Yep, on one hand Renegade can be ruthless against the criminals and the other he's intimidating people for their lunch money.

While a paragon can threaten to break your legs legs if you are a Shopkeeper setting prices, lie by call every store their favorite on the citadel, save random refinery workers from dying in a fire and ten minutes later kill your own squaddie in a fire. Then hug Tali like everything's suddenly cool.

Paragons and Renegades are pulling a fast one on us all.

[Ahriman]

-The true paragon always cuts off the Council. Because lifes of three blind politicians don't cost thousands of other lifes.

-The true paragon kills the Rachni Queen, because people shouldn't play with the fate of the Galaxy. History killed them once for a reason.

-The true paragon is always rude and disrespectful to their squadmates or crew, because when you go on suicide mission you shouldn't be tied by anything even by a freindship. And friendship won't prevent them from doing right decision on mission.

-The true paragon destroys the Geth after stopping project Overlord, because brainwoshing is worse than death.

-The true paragon destroys the genophage cure data, because it will brake all Wrex's attempts to find a place for krogans in the galaxy and start a war sooner or later.

-The true paragon makes Udina the councilor over Anderson, because Anderson doesn't have suitable type of mind, he is too idealistic and impulsive for that position. BTW he simply doesn't want to be one.

-The true paragon never takes back their Spectre status. Cerberus terrorist with Spectre status will ruin trust of aliens to humans and Alliance.

-The true paragon  punches Al-Jilani. Because such scandal will bring her more fame and let her to be heard.

I'm probably missing some.
Demagogy all the way.

Modifié par Wizz, 01 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[Gabey5]

good post

[aimlessgun]

Haha Wizz, I think you'd have a hard time defending that list.

[Endurium]

Basically just do what Saren did: make nice to gain allies and betray them once you get what you want out of them.

Some of the most evil people in history presented a friendly demeanor until it came time to act.

[NKKKK]

Op, my canon femshep is *almost* exactly as you describe, though I didn't kill Shiala, I just left her to take care of the remaining colonists (not of Zhu's hope obviously LOL), she can make a useful ally.

Is it just me that wants to dethrone TIM and take over the galaxy? Just me?

[NoUserNameHere]

So basically "true renegade = neutral evil."

Whereas defaultagade = "get it done."

[2kgnsiika]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

You can't redefine what Paragon and Renegade mean in the ME universe. If some action gives you only Paragon points, then it is by definition a Paragon thing to do. You can't try to create a sort of a priori Renegade logic that prescibes what a "True" Renegade must do regardless of whether it gives you Paragon or Renegade points.

Which is to say that being a Renegade is not ultimately the same thing as being ruthless, merciless, efficient, uncompromising, a risk taker, etc. While there's no doubt that the devs try to make Renegade action conform to some sort of logic, the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

What you mean by "Pure" Renegade is therefore something else than Renegade.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

Your thoughts are the same ones I was trying to express myself. I wrote the way I did because people often try to equate Renegade with something else.

[Dean_the_Young]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

You can't redefine what Paragon and Renegade mean in the ME universe. If some action gives you only Paragon points, then it is by definition a Paragon thing to do. You can't try to create a sort of a priori Renegade logic that prescibes what a "True" Renegade must do regardless of whether it gives you Paragon or Renegade points.

Which is to say that being a Renegade is not ultimately the same thing as being ruthless, merciless, efficient, uncompromising, a risk taker, etc. While there's no doubt that the devs try to make Renegade action conform to some sort of logic, the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

What you mean by "Pure" Renegade is therefore something else than Renegade.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

Your thoughts are the same ones I was trying to express myself. I wrote the way I did because people often try to equate Renegade with something else.

Then I'm afraid your thoughts are missing the point of my post, and the point of the OP.

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

You can't redefine what Paragon and Renegade mean in the ME universe. If some action gives you only Paragon points, then it is by definition a Paragon thing to do. You can't try to create a sort of a priori Renegade logic that prescibes what a "True" Renegade must do regardless of whether it gives you Paragon or Renegade points.

Which is to say that being a Renegade is not ultimately the same thing as being ruthless, merciless, efficient, uncompromising, a risk taker, etc. While there's no doubt that the devs try to make Renegade action conform to some sort of logic, the truth is that the only way to perfectly describe a Renegade is to make a list of actions that give Renegade points.

What you mean by "Pure" Renegade is therefore something else than Renegade.

Since the Paragon/Renegade categories are overlapping, generalizations, and even self-contradictory, and because the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to the sentiment of something when there's the choice rather than the action, there is no categorically objective action-alignment list. Covering up criminals is generally Renegade... except when it isn't with Tali. Genocide is something a Paragon will never do... until they do multiple cases of it. Punching someone is a Renegade interrupt... until it's a Paragon interrupt.

The Renegade/Paragon system has always been (non)defined and imperfectly executed, and in so much as there is one for the big choices it's tied to the sentiments Shepard mentions in the dialogue, as opposed to the player's sentiment for making the action. The game assigns points by the sentiment it presumes Shepard has, which may or may not follow roleplaying views.


It's perfectly possible to have ruthless, heartless, and outright xenophobic rationals (textbook Renegade traits) for Paragon actions that are justified in-game by kindness, mercy, or other Paragon reasons.

Good post. I've always found the system to be very flawed like that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Whenever I let the Rachni go free, it's always for indisputably non-Paragon reasonings.

It goes like this: the best case scenario is that the Rachni are honest and friendly and indebted to Humanity: go team Homa Superious.

But, even if they are dangerous... it still works out better for Humanity in some ways. How? Because it's a galactic mess that the Galactic Council must address, or must unshackle the Alliance to address. If the Turians address it on their own, it's a cost the Turians will have to carry: the bigger the cost, the more the Turians are weakned vis-a-vis the Alliance. If the Council don't want to carry the burden alone... they'll need to ask the Alliance to help. The Alliance gets more role in the galaxy, and can use the military weakness of the Turians (in needing the help) to undermine the Council's position. And if the Alliance is ruled to have to address the threat on its own... even ignorring that fires know no border, relying on the Alliance to beat back the Rachni would mean recognizing and allowing a human military buildup to do just that. After which, the Alliance has a big stick of its own, and less allegience to the Council than ever.

So releasing the Rachni becomes posed as variation of no cost at all, some one else's cost, someone else's cost in which they require our help, or a carte blanch to go on an Alliance military buildup of galaxy-shaping proportions.

All while ignoring any concept of mercy, justice, and waving aside the implications of the deaths of a galactic war.

[Sebby]

Some of the neutral choices are pretty warped too like killing Ethan Jeong and Helena Blake. Apparently Shepard gets extremely blood thirsty if he doesn't use any "I win" magic choices.

[Mykel54]

There are many types of Renegades, for example there is the human supremacist (which may be friendly to cerberus) and there is the Saren renegade (the spectre get the job done at all costs), there is also the antisocial renegade (don´t care about anyone, not even squadmates). I modelled my shepard after the other spectres (my favourite organization of ME) like Nihlus, Saren or Vasir. He always get the job done no matter the cost, and put the mission above all else, getting his hands dirty when necessary. That said, he don´t make use of pointless cruelty when it is more advantegous to be friendly, and he has friends (specially renegade Garrus) that he cares about and try to help whenever possible.

PS. About the rachni my shepard says: Too many variables! Too many variables! "drop acid tank"

Modifié par Mykel54, 03 mai 2011 - 02:46 .

[008Zulu]

I always thought the true Renegade goes it alone, kicking as many people to the curb as possible. Wanting to be the big damn hero, facing off against the Reapers solo. And getting crushed by 1000 dreadnaughts, all because of an anti social disorder.