143 réponses à ce sujet

[Altima Darkspells]

Kirkwall is also strategically located, being a port, the middle of the Free Marches...it's a good place for the events to be placed, really.

[Sabriana]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Well.. a year to Varric could be 361.25 billion days which is a lot of time to do all the things which of course, are all imaginary tale.

I'm afraid you're right. Varric is a wonderful cop-out, and allowed for skewing and kicking lore and time-line around with abandon.

Add to the above that he even calls himself "a compulsive liar", is shown (and called out by Hawke) as a teller of exaggerated tales in a Hawke/Varric conversation, is caught at least twice by Cassandra in a lie, and you have a wonderful scape-goat.

"Well, Varric lied/exaggerated/was confused/has memory problems/insert any other excuse."

[Miikan]

Sabriana wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Well.. a year to Varric could be 361.25 billion days which is a lot of time to do all the things which of course, are all imaginary tale.

I'm afraid you're right. Varric is a wonderful cop-out, and allowed for skewing and kicking lore and time-line around with abandon.

Add to the above that he even calls himself "a compulsive liar", is shown (and called out by Hawke) as a teller of exaggerated tales in a Hawke/Varric conversation, is caught at least twice by Cassandra in a lie, and you have a wonderful scape-goat.

"Well, Varric lied/exaggerated/was confused/has memory problems/insert any other excuse."

But don't you think it's quite a convenient way for the designer to avoid difficult questions? Wrong year? Ask Varrik, he's the one to blame. Wrong day/hero/event/timeline/anything?  Blame Varrik, he's the biggest liar in Thedas and even children know this.

Ahh, I don't like this kind of thinking and assuming that people who love DA word and bought the game do not think themselves :/

[TEWR]

a lot of people are assuming that one year in Thedas' timeframe is equal to our standard value of a year, i.e 1 year = 12 months, where each month consists of roughly 30-31 days.


Since Thedas is a fantasy world, it may have a different amount of days for each month and a different amount of months for each year. Which is the only way Bioware could salvage what remains from this train wreck of a continuity error.

Regarding Hawke and why Kirkwall, this is all explained in the prologue. They have family and a fortune there. When they find out there isn't a fortune or an estate, you have the option to bring up trying another city, but your sibling says no because that would put too much strain on your mother. So you decided to stay there for her.

[Sabotin]

Same reason why the Warden didn't decide to go to Orlais or further instead of killing the Archdemon.

[Sabotin]

I wrote "instead" not "after". If I wasn't clear enough with intent - you can't do everything you want because it's a game with limited freedom. Like every other game. If it's not implemented it's simply not there.

[Elhanan]

Cause the game may have been quite uneventful if it had been set in Ferelden; Blight and all that.

[Skilled Seeker]

neppakyo wrote...

If I recall, they made up kirkwall for DA2. it wasn't in the lore from DA:O.

I could be wrong.

Yes you are. Kirkwall existed right from the conception of DA. Check a map of Thedas.

[John Epler]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Sabotin wrote...

I wrote "instead" not "after". If I wasn't clear enough with intent - you can't do everything you want because it's a game with limited freedom. Like every other game. If it's not implemented it's simply not there.

Because my Wardens respected Duncan for saving them in some way. She would want to fulfill her duties in honor of Duncan.

Which is fair, insofar as your character is concerned - but others may not have felt that way. I've seen the argument on these forums that some people wanted to tell the whole order to shove it because they were, essentially, shanghai'd into becoming a Grey Warden. They never really got that option - and that's the thing with interactive narratives. We're not at a point (nor is it necessarily, in and of itself, always a desirable end-point) where we can say 'you do whatever you want, and we'll accomodate it'.

It's true in any game, of course, but even more noticeable in games with choice. Giving you the opportunity to say 'this is what I want to do here' makes it even more obvious when that option doesn't exist. One of my favourite games of all time is STALKER, but even there - it's a game where you can, theoretically, play it however you want. Except when you get to particular spots in the game, you auto-holster your weapon. What if I wanted to go into the Bar and take out that sneak who took my money for some bad information? Well, I can't, and that always struck me as a little odd, all the more so because I had so much freedom everywhere else.

In DA2, a certain number of things are assumed for the sake of cohesiveness and the like. One of those is that your Hawke remains in Kirkwall - certainly, not all Hawkes would do this, but allowing you to say 'alright, I'm out. Peace.' wasn't something we were able (or, indeed, willing) to accomodate. Is this a failing of the game? I don't think so, but it's something that will bother certain people more or less, depending on what they're looking for. It is something that's ever-present in gaming, though - even in sandbox games, though there it doesn't always seem as obvious because there are enough places where you can, essentially, say 'alright, I'm out' and then spend hours seeing how many cars you can stack on top of each other, and how big of an explosion it'll make when you take out the bottom one.

EDIT: Cleaned up some of my wording and punctuation.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 16 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

If I recall, they made up kirkwall for DA2. it wasn't in the lore from DA:O.

I could be wrong.

Yes you are. Kirkwall existed right from the conception of DA. Check a map of Thedas.

It appeared in at least one Codex entry as well if I recall correctly.

[rolson00]

@johnEpler when i played my dalish story & noble human story it bothered me that you were forced to be a grey warden

[IanPolaris]

I can see why the game needs you to stay in Kirkwall, but if the game and story design did a better job making the player personally identifiy with Hawke, his (or her) family, companions, and Kirkwall as a home worth defending (or taking over) I think you'd see fewer complaints on this score.

As things are, I feel like I am playing someone else's character, and I am being taken on a ride that I can not alter and where my choices don't matter (and thus aren't real choices)...to the point of losing a brother or sister five minutes into the game (and whose brainchild was that?) and saying 'meh'.

The reason you want the illusion of choice in an RPG is to get the player to identify with the character and world and thus make them less willing to say "peace I'm out" and wrecking your campaign. DAO did this IMO brilliantly. DA2.....not so much.....

-Polaris

[erynnar]

*Sigh* Because there are parameters for a reason, even in real life. Just as you can't take the lazar tag equipment out of the lazar tag arena and fight in the city streets, there are some things that you have to limit in a game. Killing the archdemon is one, staying in Kirkwall is another.

The problem then comes with the writing or your imagination (hopefully with help from the writters) where a plausible explanation for why..occurs. Now, I felt that DA2 missed the mark on that one big time. outside convos with companions who lightly mention staying was not enough for me, personally, after Frankenmom. I am not trashing DA2 nor do I hate it. For me, it was weak sauce.

Now maybe those here who liked DA2 and pan DAO found the same problem with DAO. To me, DAO explained it, don't kill the Archdemon and no matter where you go in Thedas, the Blight is going to follow destroying everything in it's path. Seems pretty motivating, whether you wanted to give the Wardens the two fingered salute and tell them to shove it. Or if you were playing a self serving evil douche bag, same thing. Self serving means having a world to manipulate and be a jerk in later, so saving it seems like a good idea.

[erynnar]

rolson00 wrote...

@johnEpler when i played my dalish story & noble human story it bothered me that you were forced to be a grey warden

True, you could have had the option to die instead from being tainted, or set upon by your clan when you became a ghoul.

Modifié par erynnar, 16 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[Realmzmaster]

Why Kirkwall? Because that is where the writer of the story has placed the character. It is a story that is being told. Our character gets to act out one of the roles. Our charcter has to stay in character within the options given to the character by the story teller.

The character is confined by the story. Same action can occur in P & P roleplaying session. If I as DM do not want something to happen it simply does not. I can give the illusion that it is possible. I role the dice behind my screen and declare the result which is already predetermined by my story and choice.

[TEWR]

now I'm imagining Hawke in the middle of NASCAR hoping he'll get hit.



But in all honesty, I never felt shanghai'd into being a Warden for most origins. Xanthos Aeducan knew it was his only option after Bhelen set him up for Trian's death. Xanthos knew Trian would never do something like that of his own volition. Not without Bhelen plotting something anyway.

But Damaeus Cousland wanted to bring his parents, and all of the guards that were alive as well, along with him. There was so much furniture in the castle that could've been used to barricade the gates. Together, they would've weighed more than 3 injured soldiers. But then Duncan pretty much forced him to abandon his family to that traitorous weasel Howe.

If anything, the only reason Damaeus stayed a Warden was so he could exact vengeance on Howe, and boy did he love it.

My Dalish Elf Anessen Mahariel also felt slightly shanghai'd, but it was his own stupidity and curiosity that caused him to join the Wardens. He knew it was a bad idea and wanted to tell the keeper, but he still went through with it. Now he can no longer "frolic" with Merrill.

Choice was present in the Origin stories to an extent, but you were still nevertheless playing a forced story because Origins wasn't about making a story that was all your own. It was about making a story all your own based on what you were given, and even that only went so far as each Origin story barely changed the overall story and peoples' reactions to The Warden.

[Realmzmaster]

erynnar wrote...

*Sigh* Because there are parameters for a reason, even in real life. Just as you can't take the lazar tag equipment out of the lazar tag arena and fight in the city streets, there are some things that you have to limit in a game. Killing the archdemon is one, staying in Kirkwall is another.

The problem then comes with the writing or your imagination (hopefully with help from the writters) where a plausible explanation for why..occurs. Now, I felt that DA2 missed the mark on that one big time. outside convos with companions who lightly mention staying was not enough for me, personally, after Frankenmom. I am not trashing DA2 nor do I hate it. For me, it was weak sauce.

Now maybe those here who liked DA2 and pan DAO found the same problem with DAO. To me, DAO explained it, don't kill the Archdemon and no matter where you go in Thedas, the Blight is going to follow destroying everything in it's path. Seems pretty motivating, whether you wanted to give the Wardens the two fingered salute and tell them to shove it. Or if you were playing a self serving evil douche bag, same thing. Self serving means having a world to manipulate and be a jerk in later, so saving it seems like a good idea.

But I was not given the option to side with the ArchDemon.  The reason being that thestoryteller did not allow that option.

[Skilled Seeker]

I must say, given the horrible corruption that seemed rampant in every corner of Kirkwall, it was hard to fight for the city sometimes.

[Realmzmaster]

erynnar wrote...

rolson00 wrote...

@johnEpler when i played my dalish story & noble human story it bothered me that you were forced to be a grey warden

True, you could have had the option to die instead from being tainted, or set upon by your clan when you became a ghoul.

But then it would have been a very short game!

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

a lot of people are assuming that one year in Thedas' timeframe is equal to our standard value of a year, i.e 1 year = 12 months, where each month consists of roughly 30-31 days.


Since Thedas is a fantasy world, it may have a different amount of days for each month and a different amount of months for each year. Which is the only way Bioware could salvage what remains from this train wreck of a continuity error.

Regarding Hawke and why Kirkwall, this is all explained in the prologue. They have family and a fortune there. When they find out there isn't a fortune or an estate, you have the option to bring up trying another city, but your sibling says no because that would put too much strain on your mother. So you decided to stay there for her.

What about post-Frankenstein'ing? Why the didn't Hawke get the option to go "Eff you, Jerkwall! I'm outta here!"

Hawke was too lazy to actually investigate a serial killer. He's definitely too lazy to say "Screw you Kirkwall!"