Aller au contenu

Photo

"How Sequels Should Be Made"


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
139 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages

Foolsfolly wrote...

I see you keep bringing up the "lack of resources." I'm pretty sure BioWare had all the resources it needed, the one thing they didn't have was development time.


Time is a resource and even if it wasn't if they had more level designers we would have gotten more levels in that amount of time. I mean, nothing spectacular but can you imagine having at least another mansion level? Or if the Rose had its own layout?

I mean, a decently skilled modder can knock that out in a weekend.

I think the game was rushed. I don't think that's debatable. But I also think they didn't have enough resources. I'm reminded of a Gaider post where he said he wanted Fenris to be topless have the love scene and the artists saying they'd have to cut something else to make time to make that model.

I really think they didn't have the time or resources.


I find it hard to believe that they didnt have enough or sufficient resources, they are partnered up with one of the top two game publishers in the world for crying out loud.

Either said resources were being used elsewhere resulting in a poor game or the devs decided to be arrogant and rush an inadequate game.

#77
Mecher3k

Mecher3k
  • Members
  • 421 messages

Foolsfolly wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

In my humble opinion: The point of the article is part ridiculous and part just what they did. The notion that games shouldn't change in order to not alienate former fans... well sure, it sounds nice. But is it really that realistic? Of those X that bought the game, how many did decide not to continue following that series? How many shrugged their shoulders and thought: "hey, it was okay. Not good. Just okay". How many absolutely hated it?
.


Sorry, but I disagree with this notion. Most here that are disppointed with DA2 are not with the change, it's the fact that it doesn't play like it was advertised, that being a sequel. Very few expected another Origins, but they did expect similar gameply styles in the RPG mode; DA2 does not play like an RPG.

Following your logic, how well has the COD series done with each iteration? It seems that it never changes, but each year the sales are bigger and bigger with each new release. If they changed COD into an action/adventure game, do you think it would maintain sales after getting panned by the shooter crowd after it were released? Sales would tumble, jsut like DA2 did after fans expressed their distaste for the direction it took. Even ME3 is supposedly going back to much of Mass Effect's RPG aspects that ME2 went away from, because of the fan base.


Don't bad talk a genre you know nothing about. COD's changed greatly over the years. In fact, one the biggest changes they did came with Modern Warfare which revitalized the whole series.

All game series change and evolve over time.


CoD sucks, the gameplay has remained unchanged.

#78
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 466 messages

Anathemic wrote...

I find it hard to believe that they didnt have enough or sufficient resources
, they are partnered up with one of the top two game publishers in the world for crying out loud.

Either said resources were being used elsewhere
resulting in a poor game or the devs decided to be arrogant and rush an inadequate game.


Answered your own question.

Bioware was simultaneously working on 3 projects. Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and the big one, The Old Republic.

Mecher3k wrote...

CoD sucks, the gameplay has remained unchanged.


A matter of opinion. Unfortunately, not one that is factual.

The games have massively changed since the first CoD.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 01 mai 2011 - 02:48 .


#79
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

Either said resources were being used elsewhere resulting in a poor game or the devs decided to be arrogant and rush an inadequate game.


Or the market dictated that EA needed a big hit for this quarter and that it was more beneficial to them to release DA2 earlier rather than later. So they set a date, everyone in a position to agree agreed and then BioWare had to work their asses off to meet the deadline.

Which they met. By stripping out maps and leaving behind some rather hideous bugs. But they made it.

All we know is that the game was rushed. This is not a well made polished game. It's all too clear that they rushed it out just by the fact that they had no idea about bugs until customers complained about them. And then a month after release they had a patch to fix the bugs.

But exactly why? We just have guesses. I have my guess, you can have your's. They're not extremely different. You just think they were arrogant whereas I think market reasons overrode creative reasons.

#80
Mecher3k

Mecher3k
  • Members
  • 421 messages

mrcrusty wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I find it hard to believe that they didnt have enough or sufficient resources
, they are partnered up with one of the top two game publishers in the world for crying out loud.

Either said resources were being used elsewhere resulting
in a poor game or the devs decided to be arrogant and rush an inadequate game.


Answered your own question.

Bioware was simultaneously working on 3 projects. Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and the big one, The Old Republic.

Mecher3k wrote...

CoD sucks, the gameplay has remained unchanged.


A matter of opinion. Unfortunately, not one that is factual.


The teams working on those projects are completely different then one another. Especially that SW:TOR team which is in Austin.

And no what I said about CoD is a fact. The gameplay does indeed suck and has remained unchanged. Just looking at videos of MW1 to black ops and it's going to be hard to know the difference except for a few things. 

Where with DA:O and DA2 it's night and day.

#81
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages
@ Mecher3k,

What mrcrusty said. You're just being stubborn if you believe CoD hasn't changed over the course of the series.

#82
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages
What do they expect, they went after the Carl on Duty audience with a fantasy RPG. How could that possibly have gone right?

#83
Mecher3k

Mecher3k
  • Members
  • 421 messages

Foolsfolly wrote...

@ Mecher3k,

What mrcrusty said. You're just being stubborn if you believe CoD hasn't changed over the course of the series.


Sure it has, before MW1.

You are no different then the ones that defend DA2, so pathetic in the end.

#84
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages

mrcrusty wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I find it hard to believe that they didnt have enough or sufficient resources
, they are partnered up with one of the top two game publishers in the world for crying out loud.

Either said resources were being used elsewhere
resulting in a poor game or the devs decided to be arrogant and rush an inadequate game.


Answered your own question.

Bioware was simultaneously working on 3 projects. Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and the big one, The Old Republic.

Mecher3k wrote...

CoD sucks, the gameplay has remained unchanged.


A matter of opinion. Unfortunately, not one that is factual.

The games have massively changed since the first CoD.


Having multiple projects/franchises isn't really an excuse.

Blizzard has 4 current franchises/projects to create/manage and do just fine even partnered up with Activision.

BioWare has 3 current franchises/projects to create/manage and seem to sacrifice one for the other 2, even when partnered up with Electronic Arts.

Edit: And I really really doubt that one team is doing more than one project. If a team is working with 2 franchises at the same time, that's just plain poor management from BioWare.

Modifié par Anathemic, 01 mai 2011 - 02:57 .


#85
MJRick

MJRick
  • Members
  • 436 messages
I guess i'm the only person who thought DA2 was an improvement.

#86
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 466 messages
@Anathemic:

Just because Bioware is owned by EA, doesn't mean they can't get overstretched. It's pretty much common knowledge that Dragon Age 2 was being rushed by EA to score a quick buck. Do you think that a title that's being rushed by EA for the purposes for getting extra money will then be given the resources and manpower required to create the best game possible?

Also James Ohlen is working on TOR.

If James Ohlen had been Lead on Dragon Age 2 instead of Laidlaw, who knows, we may not all be complaining about the game.

@ Mecher3k:

It's called being objective. Besides, you're shifting the goal posts. CoD always sucking & staying the same =/= CoD staying the same after MW 1.

----

Now, what I'm really wanting to know is how much of Dragon Age 2 is a result of rushjob and how much of it is a result of conscious design decisions on moving the genre into another direction. It's hard to see where the bad design and execution ends and where the rush job begins.

MJRick wrote...

I guess i'm the only person who thought DA2 was an improvement.


Curious. How so?

I'm not trolling, just curious.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 01 mai 2011 - 03:04 .


#87
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages

mrcrusty wrote...

@Anathemic:

Just because Bioware is owned by EA, doesn't mean they can't get overstretched. It's pretty much common knowledge that Dragon Age 2 was being rushed by EA to score a quick buck. Do you think that a title that's being rushed by EA for the purposes for getting extra money will then be given the resources and manpower required to create the best game possible?

Also James Ohlen is working on TOR.

If James Ohlen had been Lead on Dragon Age 2 instead of Laidlaw, who knows, we may not all be complaining about the game.


And I wonder why people still claim EA > Activision....

Personal bias aside, yeah it is pretty common knowledge DA2 was rushed. What I don't get is how people can defend rushed games. Rushed games will never be good qualtiy at best only average.

Going off topic a bit, in my personal opinion BioWare should resign en-masse, start up a new dev company and join the Acitvision-Blizzard-Bungie party. And as for SW:TOR, hell I think this is the one of the main,if not, the sole reason why EA bought BioWare off in the first place. To get into the MMORPG market with Activision Blizzard.

#88
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 466 messages
EA > Activision because EA actually lets a few development studios off lightly whereas Activision chokes everyone. DICE is the prime example.

Blizzard is an exception because Activision doesn't own Blizzard. Blizzard's parent company owns Activision.

The quality of rushed games utterly depends on the skill of the people developing it. Sometimes you won't notice it if it's good enough.

The Icewind Dale games were both massive rushjobs. Icewind Dale 2 was in development for around 10 months and Icewind Dale 1 was in development for like 6 months. Or the other way around. All I know is that they originally wanted to get IWD 1 done in 4 months and IWD 2 was done in less than a year.

You wouldn't know it from playing the games though.

Also, Dragon Age 2, Fallout: New Vegas and Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood. All these games were in development for a period of around 18 months. All games released around the same time, in case people think that the IWD games are not a good comparison.

Fun fact: J.E Sawyer was the lead of both F:NV and the IWD games. Man has great work ethic.

But Bioware isn't used to rushjobs. If they were planning to add a lot more (cohesiveness, logic, c&c, etc) to Dragon Age 2 but got cut off, they really could've used an extra year.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 01 mai 2011 - 03:23 .


#89
Anathemic

Anathemic
  • Members
  • 2 361 messages

mrcrusty wrote...

EA > Activision because EA actually lets a few development studios off lightly whereas Activision chokes everyone. DICE is the prime example.

Blizzard is an exception because Activision doesn't own Blizzard. Blizzard's parent company owns Activision.

The quality of rushed games utterly depends on the skill of the people developing it. Sometimes you won't notice it if it's good enough.

The Icewind Dale games were both massive rushjobs. Icewind Dale 2 was in development for around 10 months and Icewind Dale 1 was in development for like 6 months.

You wouldn't know it from playing the games though.

Also, Dragon Age 2, Fallout: New Vegas and Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood. All these games were in development for a period of around 18 months.

Fun fact: J.E Sawyer was the lead of both F:NV and the IWD games. Man has great work ethic.

But Bioware isn't used to rushjobs. If they were planning to add a lot more (cohesiveness, logic, c&c, etc) to Dragon Age 2 but got cut off, they really could've used an extra year.

...

I say that, but now that I think about it, Baldur's Gate 2 was completed in 18 months as well...


In the Activion/Blizzard relationship no one owns anyone, its partnership between Vivdendi and Activision.

EA might let some game devs loose but on the case with DA2, BioWare looks like it isn't one of them (in the DA franchise). 

If BioWare isn't used to rushed jobs, then who put it to them? Their arrogance or was it just classic ol' EA? Either excuse/option not really justified in any way.

#90
MJRick

MJRick
  • Members
  • 436 messages

mrcrusty wrote...

@Anathemic:

Just because Bioware is owned by EA, doesn't mean they can't get overstretched. It's pretty much common knowledge that Dragon Age 2 was being rushed by EA to score a quick buck. Do you think that a title that's being rushed by EA for the purposes for getting extra money will then be given the resources and manpower required to create the best game possible?

Also James Ohlen is working on TOR.







----



MJRick wrote...

I guess i'm the only person who thought DA2 was an improvement.


Curious. How so?

I'm not trolling, just curious.

I thought the combat was better/faster the animations could be toned down alittle though, Voice over was the biggest improvement imo, silent protagonist just seems dated today, I also liked the art style more.

#91
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

Mecher3k wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

@ Mecher3k,

What mrcrusty said. You're just being stubborn if you believe CoD hasn't changed over the course of the series.


Sure it has, before MW1.

You are no different then the ones that defend DA2, so pathetic in the end.


First off, you never said it didn't change after Modern Warfare. You said it never changed. Which is a lie. That's not me defending the series at all, I don't even care much for it other than the occasional fight with friends. (I'm a Half-Life fan, personally).

After that there are changes as well. Like Modern Warfare 2 adding pro versions of perks in multiplayer. It's not like they just made a few maps and repackaged MW. There are changes for each game, new weapons, armors, stats on weapons (believe it or not weapons get nerfed).

You're being really stubborn for no reason at all. I honestly do not think you've ever touched a CoD game but since these boards hate CoD so much because of a quote you'd just like to chime in and spout out lies like the games never change between games.

Which of course they do. It's up to whoever if the changes are better or not but CoD does not exist in a vacuum and is unchanging.

#92
Merced652

Merced652
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages
Fundamentally CoD hasn't really changed much, i remember playing the very first one and was amazed at a shooter with a story. Now i had zero interaction other than to shoot things but it was cool. The most recent CoD title i've played was MW2 and it was still the same principle of cool story for a shooter but i had no interaction other than shooting things. Sure the setting changed from ww2 to modern day, and i feel thats what really made it explode in to mass popularity. The only core changes that were made over the series, at least as far as infinity ward was concerned, were multiplayer.

One thing to consider though, is all of the games added something to the core experience. In MW1 it was gunning in a AC-130, in MW2 it was missles from drones, etc etc.

#93
Liou

Liou
  • Members
  • 90 messages

MJRick wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

@Anathemic:

Just because Bioware is owned by EA, doesn't mean they can't get overstretched. It's pretty much common knowledge that Dragon Age 2 was being rushed by EA to score a quick buck. Do you think that a title that's being rushed by EA for the purposes for getting extra money will then be given the resources and manpower required to create the best game possible?

Also James Ohlen is working on TOR.







----



MJRick wrote...

I guess i'm the only person who thought DA2 was an improvement.


Curious. How so?

I'm not trolling, just curious.

I thought the combat was better/faster the animations could be toned down alittle though, Voice over was the biggest improvement imo, silent protagonist just seems dated today, I also liked the art style more.


That's actually some of the main reasons i prefer Origins. I liked the slow and tactical combat in Origins, i prefer a silent protagonist. The art style in DA II was mostly bad but i did like some of the changes. But people like different things, i know there is people who would agree with some or even all your reasons and still prefer Origins. Why i do not know but i can imagine it is because Origins is simple of higher quality. The game has more content and less bugs. But you are not alone. There is plenty of people who prefer DA II. It would seem however, that you are in the minority.

#94
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages
I agree with the article. While I'm not as experienced with Bioware games as most of the people on here (DA:O being my first one), the key thing for a company to remember isn't generating new fans. It's staying true to the original fans (which doesn't mean don't ever do changes. Just do them with the original fans in mind).

There were a few things I was glad to see DA2 change up from DA:O, but they were still incredibly flawed changes that need a lot of work.

Besides, original fans can be very persuasive with their friends and make them want to buy the games.

#95
ROD525

ROD525
  • Members
  • 275 messages

Slidell505 wrote...

What do they expect, they went after the Carl on Duty audience with a fantasy RPG. How could that possibly have gone right?

This to the tenth degree. I play COD online sometimes and Army of 2 mostly and I cant get these guys to try ME2 let alone Dragon Age to save my life. Most of the comments I get are "thats that game with all that talking"or "thats that nerdy ****". I say F them...go after the audience that likes your type of game and make it the best you can.

#96
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 466 messages

MJRick wrote...
I thought the combat was better/faster the animations could be toned down alittle though, Voice over was the biggest improvement imo, silent protagonist just seems dated today, I also liked the art style more.


Different strokes for different folks. I liked the combat mechanics even if it was a little too over the top and quick, but I thought that with a few exceptions, the encounter and enemy design was beyond awful. Overall I liked Origins combat much more.

Voice overs are usually top notch in Bioware games. Dragon Age 2 was no exception. As for the silent protagonist, most games do fine without it. It's a matter of perspective. People like to shape their character. It's an essential part of role playing. For many of those people, having a character voice that the player can't choose is a bad thing.

As for the art style, I felt it was hit or miss. Didn't like Darkspawn, liked Qunari. Elves I'm on the fence.

Bleh, the things I agree with you on are pretty unimportant and the things I disagree on I feel are relatively important in making a good RPG. But again, different strokes for different folks.

Still, I appreciated your answer.

@Merced652:

Well, the core aspect of CoD is the multiplayer.

@The Ethereal Writer Redux:

Agreed. But I think that from the very beginning the goal wasn't to make a game with the original fans in mind. It was to see how far they could stretch stuff to attract people who play other types of games without completely breaking the game that the original fans loved so much, which is the design philosophy I talked about earlier.

In the end we get a game that's not changed enough to attract these new players and a game that's not similar enough which has soured a lot of original fans.

edit: @Anathemic:

Vivendi Games (Blizzard) merged with Activision, but Vivendi, Blizzard's parent company, owns them both.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 01 mai 2011 - 03:55 .


#97
OdanUrr

OdanUrr
  • Members
  • 11 058 messages
There seems to be a lot of thought given to how DA2 failed as a sequel to DAO. I don't know if it was advertised thus, but just because there's a 2 in the title doesn't necessarily imply you'll carry on with the same character as in the original. Take Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, or Kotor 1 and 2, or the Fallout Series (I don't know if AC is considered RPG, I don't, but if you do, remember AC1 had Altair and AC2/2.5 has Ezio). It is still the same world, yes, there may be references to the original characters, yes, but you don't carry on with the same character. On the other hand, this is the case with a lot of FPS such as Halo, or Crysis, where your main endures over time. So, for me, the 2 bit in the title didn't particularly deceive me, seeing as it was advertised you'd be using some guy named Hawke.


Having said that, it is obvious that a lot of people would have loved to play again as Revan in Kotor 2, or as the Warden in DA2. Should RPG mains carry on to sequels? Is it one of the keys to the sequel's success? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Remember how your main was such an awesome hero in the original? Well, how come he's not such a big shot in the sequel? That's sometimes what happens when you try to keep your main, you need a new enemy that is somehow tougher than your first, and you may not be sold on that new enemy. Take Shepard in Mass Effect, he destroyed hundreds of geth, a rogue Spectre, and a Reaper, yet in ME2 everyone keeps underestimating him to his/her undoing. You'd think most people would run at the sight of him, not so. To my mind this is a very unbelievable attitude. In this case, however, Shepard's story cannot be told in a single installment, so having him as the main throughout the trilogy makes sense.


It goes without saying that a sequel needs to take place in the same world as the original. After all, if you took the trouble of creating a vast world in the first place, it would be a waste not to explore its potential. This doesn't necessarily mean you need to visit the same places as in the original, but a few nods here and there carefully placed and neatly interwoven with the main plot will add to the player's gaming experience and his/her "I'm back" feel. Same goes for the original characters. You need not use them, but we'll love it if you do, in so far as their appearances are substantial and add to the story, not just meaningless cameos that would have served the same purpose if removed. I'm sorry to say that, in my gaming experience (which is, by no means, vast), I haven't seen this device used successfully in an RPG sequel. Yes, there are such appearances in Kotor 2, but really don't deliver the effect I'm going for. Perhaps someone can think of a prime example.


A sequel needs to build on the original. Again, this point seems pretty much moot to me. Why? The sequel needs to stand out on its own to the point that you'll find youself saying "DA2 is a great game" instead of "DAO's sequel is a good game." Parallels will be drawn with the original, this much is inevitable. If you change something, you'll probably be loved and hated for it in equal measure, but sometimes this change is for the better. However, entirely revamping the sequel is a radical change, and you'll almost certainly be more hated than loved for it. If the original was successful it is because there was a core of elements that made it so, and it is this core that you need to strive to keep in the sequel, albeit in a fresh and unique approach. I'm not going to try and identify DAO's core, but I think we can all pretty much agree that DA2 maintains few to none of the elements of the original game.
Case in point, the Deep Roads had already been designed in DAO. If they were going to make an appearance in DA2, why re-design them entirely? Familiarity with one's surroundings (and I mean here as in "you've seen it in DAO," not "I've seen this level some twenty times in the same game"), nostalgia if you like, can (and I think in fact does) work towards the game and not detract from it.
For instance, let's try an RTS example. "Starcraft" was pretty successful in its day. At some point Blizzard was developing "Starcraft: Ghost," a third-person shooter set in the same world, but eventually pulled the plug. Their answer was "Starcraft II," still an RTS that kept to the tried and true elements of creating units and buildings, upgrading them, and then destroying the living s*** out of your opponent/s, all of this with improved graphics. There's also an interesting storyline but, as with most RTS, I find that my sole purpose in the game is to obliterate the enemy forces. There is a core in RTS games that is easily identified and without which an RTS isn't an RTS (furthermore, there's also a core according to the series, be it Starcraft, Generals, etc., that differences one from the other.)


Story. Story, story, story. The story is not just important in an RPG, it's VITAL, whether we're talking about the first, second, or a hundred-and-nineteenth game of the series. Why do we play RPGs? Well, we want to be different people, be it heros, villains, or something in between. We want to be mages, rogues, warriors, elves, dwarves, humans, halflings, ogres, orcs, etc. But once we've chosen who we want to be, we need a drive, a plot, something that urges us to reach the game's end and quickly. I think a good game is like a good book in the sense that I can't put it down until I know how it all ends. After this, I can play again at my leisure. What is it that keeps you going in a game, or a book, or a movie? The plot, the characters. I think there's people out there who believe an RPG should be more like real life. I disagree, fantasy RPGs have "fantasy" before the RPGs bit for a reason. If you want a game more like real life, you could try Sims or any of the dozen games out there that fit this genre. The drive of a fantasy RPG (any RPG for that matter) can't be "I just want to live," it must be something more like "I need to find out/destroy something/someone to prevent something bad from happening." You can add a twist to it like in Jade Empire, to keep the player enthralled, but the story can't be "I just go through life and things happen." The hero/villain's journey in an RPG game always has an endgame. This is something that is, to my mind, missing altogether in DA2, probably due to the time skips, but this needn't have happened. The hero/villain's journey can span several years, but the ultimate objective needs to be there, it is what drives us, that singular notion that only you stand between light and darkness. Even ME2 had an endgame, you knew even before you played the game that you were going on a sucide mission to stop the collectors. Why something like this is absent in DA2 I do not understand.


Inventory. Not just that but control over both your and your companions' inventory. This seems to me to be a given in any RPG game. One of the things that drives us to explore a game's world is finding new and potentially-powerful items for you and your companions, though you almost certainly always come first when you find some priceless goodie like a sword or a new suit of armor. You buy, sell, trade things for new items, a gameplay mechanic that demands your attention if only to ensure you don't get swindled by the merchants and their prices. This, however, requires that items be colourful (don't mean rainbow-like but appealing), distinct in both their look and properties, and worth something in the event you decide to sell them. class/ability restrictions are also a good way to ensure your main doesn't always get to keep the cool stuff. But don't panic, someone will eventually develop a mod to rob your companions of their belongings. The objections I've read against party inventory control in DA2 seems to stem from the notion that, if you had said control, you would always equip your companions with the toughest gear and they'd eventually look all the same. First, this is by no means necessarily true, and you may very well equip them with different-looking armour for variety's sake and take it upon yourself to obliterate any enemy in your path should your companions fall. Second, even if that's the case, that's the point of RPGs, YOU get to make that choice and nobody else.
Inventory, together with class/ability/skill/talent, are aspects that can be revamped in a sequel. After all, a sequel will take place in developing time later than the original game, so it is safe to assume technology has evolved somewhat. You should take advantage of this to the best of your abilities and funds to deliver a more compelling game.


Last but definitely not least (in fact, I should've mentioned it further back when I wrote about a game's world) has to do with your involvement in the game. Are you truly immersed in it, do you feel yourself a part of it? The answer to this is twofold. The first part has to do with how believable the world around you is in terms of bots or NPCs, how populated is, how people react to their surroundings. In short, NPCs most move, talk, and act like real people would according to their background, location, etc. The second part has to do with how your words and deeds affect those around you. Do you notice an impact, some change, however subtle, according to what you do and don't do? Have your companions noticed? Have they brought it to your attention? Can you discuss it with them whenever you feel like it? The hero/villain's journey may ultimately be a lonely road, but you must have companions around you that will notice and comment upon the changes that they themselves go through, that you go through, and that the world goes through. These shouldn't be things like, "You killed that monster, cool!" but rather more like, "Why are you doing this? Would you do it otherwise?" The hero needs to reflect upon what he's doing and why he's doing it, and having companions around to bring it to your attention is a nice way to achieve that. What drives the hero? If a villain, what turned him from hero to villain? Why does he help people? Doesn't he trust them to solve their own problems? There's a wealth of material that can be crafted into dialogue in a fantasy RPG so that you become the hero/villain you want to be. Dialogue must also be used to drive the story forwards and should also serve to explore those of your companions. After all, they're following you. Why is that? Do they have a secret agenda? Perhaps they agree with your ideals? Maybe they made a promise to protect you? Again, the only limit here is your own imagination.


So, yeah, a fantasy RPG must take the following cue from the real world (eating my own words here):

"Actions do have consequences."

A fantasy RPG that can convince you of this, and that incorporates the above elements, is destined to become a truly great RPG.

:wizard:

Modifié par OdanUrr, 01 mai 2011 - 04:07 .


#98
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages

@The Ethereal Writer Redux:

Agreed. But I think that from the very beginning the goal wasn't to make a game with the original fans in mind. It was to see how far they could stretch stuff to attract people who play other types of games without completely breaking the game that the original fans loved so much, which is the design philosophy I talked about earlier.

In the end we get a game that's not changed enough to attract these new players and a game that's not similar enough which has soured a lot of original fans.


Sadly that does seem to be the truth of it. Trying to draw in a new audience while keeping the old audience is a very risky venture at best. You don't need to appeal to a new audience to increase your fanbase because the old audience can get you those new fans. It may be slow, but it works better than making a half-assed game for both sides.

#99
Sir JK

Sir JK
  • Members
  • 1 523 messages

Anathemic wrote...
I agree with the point you are trying ot make, but those changes you listed were really controversial if you remember pre-DA2. Not exactly a wise descision at a beginning of a franchise. ME2 might have succeeded but it doesn't mean that DA2 will (and it didn't).

Mind however, those changes were "controversial" only once they were announced. Which is to say when the majority of the work had already been done. That they needed changing was there never any doubt about (okay, some people disagreed.). So the problem was never what as much as how they were changed. So doing like the article, and claiming that good things shouldn't be changed is in my meaning reaching the wrong conclusion.
These were things we wanted them to change. People just didn't like how it was changed (for many different reasons).

I see you keep bringing up the "lack of resources." I'm pretty sure BioWare had all the resources it needed, the one thing they didn't have was development time. I don't know if it was EA who set the development time or BioWare being arrogant, either way it's the truth.

How do I know BioWare has sufficient resources? Well for one, they are under EA, y'know the one major game publisher competing with Activion Blizzard? And 2, look at their other current projects, Mass Effect and SW:TOR.

And to add on to it. If a Polish indie game dev can release TW1 back in 07 with BioWare's own Aurora Engine with not even a fourht of the budget for DA2 and make a great success.... yeah...

From what I understand of the process, the only resource of consequence is time. How much time you have is limited by the budget (in essence... money buys development time). The deadline of a game is set the moment the budget is set. Which is to say before development begins.

Now 18 months is standard of the industry, which is to say that it is extremely difficult to convince publishers to provide a longer development time. Not only that... but a development time of over 18 months means the game is also more expensive than standard.

Once the agreement is made the publisher/developer is contract bound to provide the agreed upon sum of money for the duration of the development time and in return they are promised a game on the deadline. In effect they are paying millions of dollars up front for a game 1,5 years later. For all intents and purposes the game is made on loaned money.

Adding more development time is like being forced to renegotiate this loan. And just like breaking a budget, this makes you seem unreliable. It is a sure way of guaranteeing you'll never ever get that kind of deal again. You can't just add more money to something... because it was agreed a long time ago what it was supposed to cost.
Think of it this way... imagine you were promised a game for 60 $ after 18 months and have promised to buy it when released, and then after 9 they suddenly say: "sorry, we'll have increase the price to 80 $" and you're still contract-bound to buy it.  That's why a budget that is set is set.

Anything that simply cannot be finished before deadline have to be cut or patched. On the developers expense.

And ultimately, all that money that were loaned to make the game will have to be paid back. By the customers. So those extra months everyone would have wanted would have directly translated into either a higher pricetag on the game or through marketing it to a larger group ("making it more mainstream"). Ultimately... customers would have to pay for every extra hour.

#100
Euno17

Euno17
  • Members
  • 201 messages

Sir JK wrote...

In my humble opinion: The point of the article is part ridiculous and part just what they did. The notion that games shouldn't change in order to not alienate former fans... well sure, it sounds nice. But is it really that realistic? Of those X that bought the game, how many did decide not to continue following that series? How many shrugged their shoulders and thought: "hey, it was okay. Not good. Just okay". How many absolutely hated it?
The notion that DA2 shouldn't have to outsell DAO because 3 million is okay. Sure, until you realise that if you made a copy of DAO it would not sell 3 million units. A significant sum of those fans probably wouldn't have bought a identical sequel. It would have sold less no matter how true it was to the original.


What????? I know you've tried to explain your reasoning in posts further on but this paragraph needs to be brought up again.

everything in this paragraph is just  . . . wow. First - you start off by saying 'former' fans - as if the fans from origins suddenly aren't fans anymore. Lol, if someone is considered a former fan - it'd be fair to say that they wouldn't buy X regardless so I'm not sure what you're point is there. We are talking about 'fans' of Dragon Age in general or hell any fan of any game.

I love it how you then say that staying with the core basis of the game sounds 'nice' but not realistic (or perhaps I should rephrase and say you felt that it's a wrong thing to believe that X game shouldn't make X changes onthe basis that it would ****** off or alienate the fans) . Uhh, no - it's a pretty sound concept that MANY companies have gone with and have been MORE then successful. It's a pretty easy concept to understand - Don't completely change the core gameplay features of the game and you'll be set. Look at ME2 for a prime example. ME had great RPG elements but it wasn't considered the core gameplay (ME was considered a shooter first). So even when those were lost in ME2 - the game still sold at a great clip (because wait for it . . . they didn't change the core-elements of the game!)

FF? DW? Madden? Starcraft 1/2 . . . D1-D2 (D-2 added alot but the core gameplay remained intact.) . . . MW1/2/Black-ops (all have pretty much have the same gameplay, perhaps some side features removed here and there but the core ideas are the same.) I mean I could sit here and list dozens of series that remained true to their core gameplay while being successful.

Of those X that bought the game, how many did decide not to continue
following that series? How many shrugged their shoulders and thought:
"hey, it was okay. Not good. Just okay".


"A significant sum of those fans probably wouldn't have bought a identical sequel."

What are you even talking about here? Uhh - lol I'm confused. If someone or a bunch of people bought X game and thought, 'hey this game is awesome!' chances are they'd buy a sequel. If they thought the game sucked, chances are they wouldn't buy a sequel. I can imagine most consumers would be more ready to accept sequel after sequel of the same core features then be ready to accept them consistently changing. In my opinion, people like consistency and it shows when games like Halo, SC etc sell insanely well over the course of their respective franchises.   

Sure, until you realise that if you made a copy of DAO it would not sell 3 million units.

I call B.S on this - there is no evidence or anything for that matter for you to say Origins 2.0 could not have sold 3 million units. Well, unless it was the production value of DA2. If Origins 2.0 WAS made - it would have been hailed as one of the greatest games this year and would have had the ability to sell well over the course of the spring/summer seasons until other big rpg titles came out. 

It would have sold less no matter how true it was to the original.

What a self-defeating attitude here. Well I mean nothing is EVER going to outsell or be viewed as better then origins so I might as well not try right? Improvements - even small ones - can go a long way into making a long-term successful franchise.

Modifié par Euno17, 01 mai 2011 - 05:50 .