437 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...
Spot on there.  I find it hard to quantify my reason to hate Liara.  I am okay with her character in the story, but somehow I have a burning dislike for something about her character, and I think you pointed out why. 
Plot armor

When would it make sense to kill her?

ImmortalWarrior wrote...
no real character flaws

compared to...?
We have her social awkwardness in ME1. She is also single-minded when it comes to certain things (protheans in ME1, her quest for revenge against the SB in ME2)

ImmortalWarrior wrote...
she becomes a fighting badass when, after 100 years she was still a useless kid

She traveled the galaxy for some decades (unlike Tali - who is on her pilgrimage in ME1). We know she has been fighting mercenaries, pirates and privateers on remote Prothean digsites. I imagine Benezia would have trained her to defend herself too.

ImmortalWarrior wrote...
AND acted like it

examples?

Modifié par Barquiel, 03 mai 2011 - 03:19 .

[Nodscouter]

1Minsc1 wrote...

@nodscouter: without interest i wouldn´t be here.
and it´s a simple fact that you are using words inappropiate.
again: take a look a the RED-text, you made a claim, i´am asking for evidence, you accuse me to "cease putting words in your mouth"???
if you can´t / wan´t communicate proper, it´s no insult when i conclude communication with you is not possible. it´s a simple fact

Still ignoring my argument on age I see, how fun for you. I'll consider that discussion closed then.
Right, let's see what happened here. You CLAIMED that I made a claim. You were mistaken about that. I tell you this, that you were mistaken when you said I had made that claim. Your response? You rant about how you can't have a proper debate with me, because I explain to you that you were mistaken in a part of your post.
You are discussing with me now are you not?
Besides, you could be here without proper interest actually. To save yourself from being made a public fool is one reason I can think of.
What of my words are ''inappropiate''? Is my swearing scaring you? Oh, how heartbroken I am then.
Note: That was sarcasm. Not sure if you caught that, had to be sure.

Edit: Now, are you ready to have a discussion without resorting to mud-slinging and accusing me of insanity without any foundation?

Modifié par Nodscouter, 03 mai 2011 - 03:22 .

[Nodscouter]

Yeees, because sharing a single view with someone else obviously makes them a raving lunatic who needs to be put down.
You sure are good at finding ways to feel superior to others.

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with ImmortalWarrior.

Tali told you herself that handing the data to the Admiralty board would likely cause panic in the Flotilla.

What matters is that the geth are dealt with, and that Rael'Zorah's experiments will likely not be repeated again, as the quarians will probably be more careful with what they let inside their ships.

If you give them the data, all that will happen is that the name of one quarian - a dead one, at that - will be forever tarnished.

Even if you argue that the data from Rael's research could be useful against the geth, it looks like very few people think like Admiral Daro'Xen, so that probably data won't get any use, as it is unlikely that the quarians will allow those experiments to continue.

Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical. Shepard doesn't magically "know" how the situation will play out before Shepard decides to give or conceal the evidence.

[lolwut666]

Zaal'Koris campaigns NOT to geth his people killed against the geth.

Zaal'Koris hates his people.

...

Cannot compute.

[1Minsc1]

[quote]Nodscouter wrote...

1: Yes, let's blatantly ignore the analogy here, how convenient.
2: So, the problem here is semantics. How I do enjoy debating that.
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.
3: That completely depends on the situation. Age is not a valid argument for innocence.
I'll be going to bed now, and continue debating in circles in the morrow![/quote]

[/quote]

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 03 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

Turning over the evidence is the bottom right option. The top right option is telling the Admiralty Board you have no evidence.

Really? Revealing the truth is Renegade? Huh, maybe I need to be more of a Renegade with my Boy Scout Shepard then.

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

english in not my native speaking, i admitted that i think, even that this maybe the reason of my misunderstanding. because of that i took a quick look at the definitions of the words we use. are these definitions wrong? so please tell me!
2. you made a claim distrusting other races implies thinking about them as inferior/superior. where is the evidence??? i don´t see it, please tell me!
3. you made a claim that age is not a valid argument for innocence. where is the evidence??? i don´t see it, please tell me!

this is not about believing in somewhat, this is about the corrcet usage of words. so please proof that it´s me who´s using them the wrong way

2. No, that's not what I said. Would you please cease putting words in my mouth?
3. Okay, this has many, many problems.
First off, innocence, is abstract. It does not have any exact meaning, except in our eyes. Therefore, it cannot have exact proof.
Secondly, you are the one making the claim that age makes me invulnerable to guilt. The burden of proof is on you. It's like if I said ''The universe is a bowl of pudding''. Someone would obviously ask for proof, and I would say ''What? Do you have any evidence it's not????? HUH??!?!?!?!?!? DIDNT F*CKING THINK SO HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!''
Thirdly, it really, really isn't a good excuse. I can kill someone in bare daylight, but obviously, it's his fault, I'm just 14, I could never have killed someone right?

that was you answer, who starts insulting?

[lolwut666]

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with ImmortalWarrior.

Tali told you herself that handing the data to the Admiralty board would likely cause panic in the Flotilla.

What matters is that the geth are dealt with, and that Rael'Zorah's experiments will likely not be repeated again, as the quarians will probably be more careful with what they let inside their ships.

If you give them the data, all that will happen is that the name of one quarian - a dead one, at that - will be forever tarnished.

Even if you argue that the data from Rael's research could be useful against the geth, it looks like very few people think like Admiral Daro'Xen, so that probably data won't get any use, as it is unlikely that the quarians will allow those experiments to continue.

Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical. Shepard doesn't magically "know" how the situation will play out before Shepard decides to give or conceal the evidence.

Well, how about this, then:

Quarian politics are not your business. You're human, not quarian.

Your teammate - a quarian - tells you that you shouldn't turn over the evidence because it'll cause panic. I'm sure that she knows quarian politics better than you do.

Since quarian politics are not your business, and your quarian squadmate is asking you not to turn over the evidence, I think you are being a self-rightous jerk by giving them the evidence anyway.

No offense.

[Nodscouter]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

*yawn* Mornin' gents.

1Minsc1 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

1: Yes, let's blatantly ignore the analogy here, how convenient.
2: So, the problem here is semantics. How I do enjoy debating that.
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.
3: That completely depends on the situation. Age is not a valid argument for innocence.
I'll be going to bed now, and continue debating in circles in the morrow!

2. i disagree, Ash too
3. i disagree, again. wiki:
Innocence is a term used to indicate a general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing. In a legal context, innocence refers to the lack of legal guilt of an individual, with respect to a crime.
Guilt is the fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense[1]. It is also a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.[2] It is closely related to the concept of remorse.

i dont think a 2years old child, which is not fully self-consciousness, can be guilty in any way

2: Good to know you do. I mean sure, who cares about evidence right? F*ck that ****.
3: You know, I have a basic knowledge of the meaning of words in English. Just saying.
You can believe whatever the hell you want, doesn't change the world.

is this a claim?

If I could sigh over the internet, I would do it, very heavily, right now.
Alas, a simply *sigh* will have to do now.

And you just proved you misinterpreted me, how skillful of you. So your point was... what, you can't understand what I'm saying? Perhaps I should speak more simply henceforth.
What I meant was that it certainly does not mean it like you choose to interpret it as. What I meant was that they don't trust other races, therefore seeing their own as slightly superior. That doesn't mean they are supremacists (And don't start rambling about wheels and cars, I mean RACIAL SUPREMACISTS!)  Simply, goddamn, logic. For f*cks sake, is this so hard to understand?

Arcian wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Yeees, because sharing a single view with someone else obviously makes them a raving lunatic who needs to be put down.
You sure are good at finding ways to feel superior to others.

Just curious; was this a jab at me?

Your perceptive ability truly knows no bounds.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 03 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

Zaal'Koris campaigns NOT to geth his people killed against the geth.

Zaal'Koris hates his people.

...

Cannot compute.

Is this in response to some other ongoing conversation? Because I don't follow the point trying to be made here.

[lolwut666]

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Zaal'Koris campaigns NOT to geth his people killed against the geth.

Zaal'Koris hates his people.

...

Cannot compute.

Is this in response to some other ongoing conversation? Because I don't follow the point trying to be made here.

Yeah.

It doesn't make a lot of sense because you beat me to the punch.

It refers to the post right above yours.

[Nodscouter]

Did I ever say I was against him?

[ImmortalWarrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with ImmortalWarrior.

Tali told you herself that handing the data to the Admiralty board would likely cause panic in the Flotilla.

What matters is that the geth are dealt with, and that Rael'Zorah's experiments will likely not be repeated again, as the quarians will probably be more careful with what they let inside their ships.

If you give them the data, all that will happen is that the name of one quarian - a dead one, at that - will be forever tarnished.

Even if you argue that the data from Rael's research could be useful against the geth, it looks like very few people think like Admiral Daro'Xen, so that probably data won't get any use, as it is unlikely that the quarians will allow those experiments to continue.

Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical. Shepard doesn't magically "know" how the situation will play out before Shepard decides to give or conceal the evidence.

Observation is EVERYTHING man. Shepard is not a mindless automaton. He is a person, intelligent enough to form his own conclusions based on the situation. It's basic politics. Nothing is black and white in politics.

"Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical." - That is exactly what logical deduction is. Formulating a decision based all possible outcomes and consequences with the information available, ie, observed information.

Entry number 1 on Dictionary.com under World English Dictionary. It likens formal logic deduction to philosophical induction.

"formal logic deduction See also induction the branch of philosophy concerned with analysing the patterns of reasoning by which a conclusion is properly drawn from a set of premises, without reference to meaning or context"

The meaning or context applies more to the induction philosophy, but its right there in the definition.

@Barquiel

I was only agreeing with a previous post. Read it for further details. He wanted to kill her off. I don't care either way. I was only agreeing with certain parts about why I personally don't like her character. It is not that I feel that she doesn't have a place, she obviously does, but her personality bugs the sh*t outta me. Not meant to offend Liara fans.

[lolwut666]

Nodscouter wrote...

Did I ever say I was against him?

I was agreeing with you.

It was snark addressed to that guy who said Zaal'Koris hates his own people.

I gotta start quoting more often.

[ImmortalWarrior]

lolwut666 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with ImmortalWarrior.

Tali told you herself that handing the data to the Admiralty board would likely cause panic in the Flotilla.

What matters is that the geth are dealt with, and that Rael'Zorah's experiments will likely not be repeated again, as the quarians will probably be more careful with what they let inside their ships.

If you give them the data, all that will happen is that the name of one quarian - a dead one, at that - will be forever tarnished.

Even if you argue that the data from Rael's research could be useful against the geth, it looks like very few people think like Admiral Daro'Xen, so that probably data won't get any use, as it is unlikely that the quarians will allow those experiments to continue.

Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical. Shepard doesn't magically "know" how the situation will play out before Shepard decides to give or conceal the evidence.

Well, how about this, then:

Quarian politics are not your business. You're human, not quarian.

Your teammate - a quarian - tells you that you shouldn't turn over the evidence because it'll cause panic. I'm sure that she knows quarian politics better than you do.

Since quarian politics are not your business, and your quarian squadmate is asking you not to turn over the evidence, I think you are being a self-rightous jerk by giving them the evidence anyway.

No offense.

Exactly.

[Nodscouter]

Arcian wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Your perceptive ability truly knows no bounds.

Thanks! 

Alright, with that kind of answer, I suddenly don't feel inclined to hate you anymore.

lolwut666 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Did I ever say I was against him?

I was agreeing with you.

It was snark addressed to that guy who said Zaal'Koris hates his own people.

I gotta start quoting more often.

Quite so indeed

Modifié par Nodscouter, 03 mai 2011 - 03:44 .

[ImmortalWarrior]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

english in not my native speaking, i admitted that i think, even that this maybe the reason of my misunderstanding. because of that i took a quick look at the definitions of the words we use. are these definitions wrong? so please tell me!
2. you made a claim distrusting other races implies thinking about them as inferior/superior. where is the evidence??? i don´t see it, please tell me!
3. you made a claim that age is not a valid argument for innocence. where is the evidence??? i don´t see it, please tell me!

this is not about believing in somewhat, this is about the corrcet usage of words. so please proof that it´s me who´s using them the wrong way

The evidence is within the statement itself.  If I distrust, dislike, or hate my portuguese friend because he is portuguese, I am racist.  Let me put it another way you can understand.  Hitler distrusted, disliked and hated the jews.  If he did nothing else to the jews but just disliked them, he would have still been a racist.

Generalizing someone by some clearly defined category is called stereotyping.  Generalizing someone because of their race, species, color, or creed is RACISM.

I quote myself for Nodscouter.  Minsc clearly doesn't understand how simple and clear it is.

Modifié par ImmortalWarrior, 03 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[Nodscouter]

Appreciate the support mate.

[1Minsc1]

@nod
1. you quote me wrong, red color
2. was it a claim or not? you said you made no claim. so what?
3. wrong, you can distrust another race and see them as superior, or not? or stay neutral?
you made a claim, i ask for evidence, you said you made no claim, you repeat the claim, still without evidence and by the way you insulting me. got it???

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I agree with ImmortalWarrior.

Tali told you herself that handing the data to the Admiralty board would likely cause panic in the Flotilla.

What matters is that the geth are dealt with, and that Rael'Zorah's experiments will likely not be repeated again, as the quarians will probably be more careful with what they let inside their ships.

If you give them the data, all that will happen is that the name of one quarian - a dead one, at that - will be forever tarnished.

Even if you argue that the data from Rael's research could be useful against the geth, it looks like very few people think like Admiral Daro'Xen, so that probably data won't get any use, as it is unlikely that the quarians will allow those experiments to continue.

Once again, arguing in favor of a course of action based on your observation of the consequences of that action is not logical. Shepard doesn't magically "know" how the situation will play out before Shepard decides to give or conceal the evidence.

Well, how about this, then:

Quarian politics are not your business. You're human, not quarian.

Your teammate - a quarian - tells you that you shouldn't turn over the evidence because it'll cause panic. I'm sure that she knows quarian politics better than you do.

Since quarian politics are not your business, and your quarian squadmate is asking you not to turn over the evidence, I think you are being a self-rightous jerk by giving them the evidence anyway.

No offense.

You can call it being a self-righteous jerk if you want, but you're still concealing evidence about a war crime from the recognized government of the quarians. I find it appalling that BioWare decided that was "Renegade" for Shepard to do. Way to reinforce that "end justifies the means" mentality, BioWare. If the quarian government really is such a powderkeg, it would have been nice if Shepard had the option to just let Tali speak for herself, and let her assume the burden of revealing or concealing the information. After all, like you said, they are her people, and Shepard was pretty much drafted into the proceedings in the first place. The fact that Tali just stands there passively while Shepard decides her fate is another reason I dislike the character.