437 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

Grammar is semantics.
And once again, you defer to your holy dictionary. It's not right in everything it says! You can't treat it like a god!

Arcian wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

We're talking about a man who was willing to convict one of his own people of treason for political motivations.

****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?  He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.  HE DESERVES TO DIE FOR THIS CRIME.

DISPROPORTIONATE RETRIBUTION[/i][i] 

One of the few areas in which I support Koris. Innocents are expendable if you help the greater good. Not that I think he's helping the greater good though.

Funny how subjective that whole "greater good" concept is. I'm sure every terrorist ever born feels that innocents are expendable if it helps their personal idea of the "greater good". Quite a convenient little concept, that greater good.

[MisterJB]

He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.

Correction, he was willing to destroy one quarian's life in order to prevent a war that could very well destroy the entire race.

jamesp81 wrote...
 ****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?

A good one?

[jamesp81]

Arcian wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

We're talking about a man who was willing to convict one of his own people of treason for political motivations.

****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?  He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.  HE DESERVES TO DIE FOR THIS CRIME.

DISPROPORTIONATE RETRIBUTION :happy:=]^_^:innocent:

Actually, in most societies Treason is a death penalty offense.  The Quarians don't have that and don't have the space to house people for life imprisonment, so they go with exile.  Nevertheless, Zaal Koris attempted to get an innocent woman convicted of a capital crime for his own political ends.  It is perfectly proportionate for him to suffer the fate he attempted to inflict on someone else unjustly.  In Quarian society, that means exile.  In my society, when I find him, it means a bullet in his head.

[lolwut666]

@Siansonea II

You are forgetting that quarian politics are not your business, and you are also ignoring the fact that you don't know quarian politics as well as Tali, so your opinion is worth less than hers.

And what I said about Rael'Zorah is that, between tarnishing the image of a dead man and protecting the stability of the quarian society, the latter is more important.

[jamesp81]

MisterJB wrote...

He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.

Correction, he was willing to destroy one quarian's life in order to prevent a war that could very well destroy the entire race.

jamesp81 wrote...
 ****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?

A good one?

1.  Destroying the lives of the innocent makes him unfit as a leader and a criminal.  It is the very definition of illegitimate government.

2.  The kind of leader who does something like this is known as a tyrant.  A short drop and a sudden stop is the appropriate response.

[Siansonea]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

"First, it's impossible to know beforehand that revealing the evidence—doing the RIGHT thing, no matter what BioWare's Kool-Aid drinking writers say—will 'destabilize' the quarian government to the extent that it does in the game before it happens"

Tali says it likely will, and you should have reason to beleive her as she understands quarians better than you, as a human, do.

Then WHY is Shepard even involved? Why is SHEPARD making the call?

"Second of all, Shepard could have asked to speak privately with the
Admirals and revealed the evidence to them outside of a public tribunal."

You're assuming they would entertain the idea.  Koris tried to throw you out saying that, as a human, you had no right to represent her.  Their actions weren't based on reason, that much is clear.  You cannot reasonably assume that they would allow this because they are being totally unpredictable.  Even Shala'Raan had to hide the fact that Tali's father was likely dead just to ensure the impact to Tali was clearly visible.  Why did Shala have to do that when, clearly, the Admiralty are a very reasonable group of people? That question is rhetorical.

It couldn't hurt to ask

"you have to LIE. I don't like that, and I don't like that Tali pushes for it, and I don't like that she's actually applauded for putting her devotion to her father's memory ahead of telling the TRUTH."

You don't have to lie, it is entirely your choice.  It is pretty clear to most people that best choice is to keep the evidence to yourself for the reasons explained earlier by several of us.  Bioware thinks you are wrong, and Shepard at that point, has all the evidence he needs to make an informed decision about whether to reveal it or not.

Concealing the evidence is lying. And you conveniently snipped away the part where I said "To get the best result from a metagame standpoint, you have to LIE". And BioWare's placement of the options is not the point. Call it what you will, but it is a lie of ommission at least. But we're not talking about a little white lie here. We're talking about witholding evidence in a trial for treason. That's perjury, that's conspiracy, that's all sorts of other very nasty things. I don't care how 'cute' Tali is, I don't care how crazy/stupid the quarian government is, you can't just whitewash the fact that IN ORDER TO GET THE "POSITIVE' RESULT", I.E., HAPPY TALI, YOU HAVE TO CONCEAL EVIDENCE OF A WAR CRIME IN AN OFFICIAL TRIAL. Everything else is subjective. That is not. And I don't like the fact that BioWare thinks it's okay for some reason, Tali's fans think it's okay for some reason, and no one apparently thinks that obeying the law has any value.

[Nodscouter]

Siansonea II wrote...
Funny how subjective that whole "greater good" concept is. I'm sure every terrorist ever born feels that innocents are expendable if it helps their personal idea of the "greater good". Quite a convenient little concept, that greater good.

Yes.
That doesn't make it wrong though.
And guy-who-can't-speak-english-and-keeps-talking-in-circles, I'm tired of you. You really have no interest in actually listening to what I'm saying, and keeps bringing up some random dictionary who apparently has no idea what they're talking about.
Plus, I like debating in English, nothing you're capable of...
So bye.

[ImmortalWarrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Grammar is semantics.
And once again, you defer to your holy dictionary. It's not right in everything it says! You can't treat it like a god!

Arcian wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

We're talking about a man who was willing to convict one of his own people of treason for political motivations.

****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?  He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.  HE DESERVES TO DIE FOR THIS CRIME.

DISPROPORTIONATE RETRIBUTION[/i][i] 

One of the few areas in which I support Koris. Innocents are expendable if you help the greater good. Not that I think he's helping the greater good though.

Funny how subjective that whole "greater good" concept is. I'm sure every terrorist ever born feels that innocents are expendable if it helps their personal idea of the "greater good". Quite a convenient little concept, that greater good.

Here is where you are wrong, yet again.  Greater good, as you put it there implies that people get hurt by withholding the evidence.  Only a dead mans reputation is hurt. Ignoring Tali completely you have this:

Option 1: Rightfully ruin the reputation of man who probably deserved it, but is dead now and cannot live to suffer his punishment.  Doing so has the potentential to fracture the quarian fleet, as stated clearly to you before hand.

Option 2: Withhold the evidence. Commiting a crime of perjury, or more simply, a lie of omission if you will, and avoid risking a political schism within the quarians.  The man in question is already dead, why beat a dead horse?

Option 2 is the better and less selfish choice for you, as a human.  It has the unwanted effect in you opinion, of catering towards Tali's selfish wish to protect her father's.  Where she is correct though, is that it protects the quarians from themselves.

[1Minsc1]

@ nod: you´re leaving?
what about grammar and semantics?

[ImmortalWarrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

"First, it's impossible to know beforehand that revealing the evidence—doing the RIGHT thing, no matter what BioWare's Kool-Aid drinking writers say—will 'destabilize' the quarian government to the extent that it does in the game before it happens"

Tali says it likely will, and you should have reason to beleive her as she understands quarians better than you, as a human, do.

Then WHY is Shepard even involved? Why is SHEPARD making the call?

"Second of all, Shepard could have asked to speak privately with the
Admirals and revealed the evidence to them outside of a public tribunal."

You're assuming they would entertain the idea.  Koris tried to throw you out saying that, as a human, you had no right to represent her.  Their actions weren't based on reason, that much is clear.  You cannot reasonably assume that they would allow this because they are being totally unpredictable.  Even Shala'Raan had to hide the fact that Tali's father was likely dead just to ensure the impact to Tali was clearly visible.  Why did Shala have to do that when, clearly, the Admiralty are a very reasonable group of people? That question is rhetorical.

It couldn't hurt to ask

"you have to LIE. I don't like that, and I don't like that Tali pushes for it, and I don't like that she's actually applauded for putting her devotion to her father's memory ahead of telling the TRUTH."

You don't have to lie, it is entirely your choice.  It is pretty clear to most people that best choice is to keep the evidence to yourself for the reasons explained earlier by several of us.  Bioware thinks you are wrong, and Shepard at that point, has all the evidence he needs to make an informed decision about whether to reveal it or not.

Concealing the evidence is lying. And you conveniently snipped away the part where I said "To get the best result from a metagame standpoint, you have to LIE". And BioWare's placement of the options is not the point. Call it what you will, but it is a lie of ommission at least. But we're not talking about a little white lie here. We're talking about witholding evidence in a trial for treason. That's perjury, that's conspiracy, that's all sorts of other very nasty things. I don't care how 'cute' Tali is, I don't care how crazy/stupid the quarian government is, you can't just whitewash the fact that IN ORDER TO GET THE "POSITIVE' RESULT", I.E., HAPPY TALI, YOU HAVE TO CONCEAL EVIDENCE OF A WAR CRIME IN AN OFFICIAL TRIAL. Everything else is subjective. That is not. And I don't like the fact that BioWare thinks it's okay for some reason, Tali's fans think it's okay for some reason, and no one apparently thinks that obeying the law has any value.

Try and not let your feelings towards Tali bias your decision.  Even if you dislike Tali, withholding the evidence is the morally better choice. 

I'm not saying your moral compass is f**ked, but Hitler thought Aushwitz and 400,000 butchered and tortured jews was a morally better choice too.

[jamesp81]

Siansonea II wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Grammar is semantics.
And once again, you defer to your holy dictionary. It's not right in everything it says! You can't treat it like a god!

Arcian wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

We're talking about a man who was willing to convict one of his own people of treason for political motivations.

****. Him.  What the hell kind of leader does this to his own people?  He was willing to destroy an innocent woman's life for his own goals.  HE DESERVES TO DIE FOR THIS CRIME.

DISPROPORTIONATE RETRIBUTION[/i][i] 

One of the few areas in which I support Koris. Innocents are expendable if you help the greater good. Not that I think he's helping the greater good though.

Funny how subjective that whole "greater good" concept is. I'm sure every terrorist ever born feels that innocents are expendable if it helps their personal idea of the "greater good". Quite a convenient little concept, that greater good.

1. Koris attempts to convict an innocent woman of a capital crime.

2. Punishing Koris with the same or similar punishment he intended to unjustly inflict on someone else is not in any way, shape, or form, disproportionate.  In fact, it's exactly proportionate.  Some might even call it karma.

Koris should, at the least, be exiled.  In many societies the punishment for treason is execution, so I'm ok with that too.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 mai 2011 - 04:43 .

[MisterJB]

jamesp81 wrote...

1.  Destroying the lives of the innocent makes him unfit as a leader and a criminal.  It is the very definition of illegitimate government.
 

The good of the many outweigh the good of Tali. He was looking out for the survival of his race as a whole, that makes him a good leader.

2.  The kind of leader who does something like this is known as a tyrant.  A short drop and a sudden stop is the appropriate response. 

So, shall we forget that Kolis was voting (a democratic procedure) for Tali's exile when all evidence pointed towards her being guilty and just call him a tyrant?

I'm curious, are you intent on destroying the Alliance? They are going to destroy Shepard's life in order to prevent a war with the Batarians. Are they tyrants? Or are they simply reasonable people who see that we cannot sacrifice the lifes of millions just to save one person.

[ImmortalWarrior]

repost*

Modifié par ImmortalWarrior, 03 mai 2011 - 04:45 .

[jamesp81]

MisterJB wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

1.  Destroying the lives of the innocent makes him unfit as a leader and a criminal.  It is the very definition of illegitimate government.
 

The good of the many outweigh the good of Tali. He was looking out for the survival of his race as a whole, that makes him a good leader.

2.  The kind of leader who does something like this is known as a tyrant.  A short drop and a sudden stop is the appropriate response. 

So, shall we forget that Kolis was voting (a democratic procedure) for Tali's exile when all evidence pointed towards her being guilty and just call him a tyrant?

I'm curious, are you intent on destroying the Alliance? They are going to destroy Shepard's life in order to prevent a war with the Batarians. Are they tyrants? Or are they simply reasonable people who see that we cannot sacrifice the lifes of millions just to save one person.

Koris is an unelected oligarch.  Period.  Full stop.

As for the Alliance, we'll see what they do in respect to the trial/hearing/whatever it turns out to be.

Suffice to say I was not happy about Hackett's whole "face the music" BS after Arrival.  Also, destroying the Alliance would not be appropriate even in a worst case scenario.  Punishing those that made the trial happen would be.  this would likely include a small handful of lawyers, judges, and other officials.  The Alliance will survive just fine without them.  Just as the Quarians would likely survive just fine without this unelected dictatorship known as the admiralty board.  The Admiralty board woudl be fine if it's only authority was over the quarian military, but it wields civil power as well.  It's very literally a military dictatorship.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 mai 2011 - 04:50 .

[lolwut666]

@jamesp81

How is exiling one person the same as sacrificing lives?

First of all, exiling Tali was a democratic procedure. Second of all, are you going to tell me that you are a tyrant just because you prohibit someone you don't like from entering your house? Because that's what exile is, in simple terms.

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

You are forgetting that quarian politics are not your business, and you are also ignoring the fact that you don't know quarian politics as well as Tali, so your opinion is worth less than hers.

And what I said about Rael'Zorah is that, between tarnishing the image of a dead man and protecting the stability of the quarian society, the latter is more important.

If it's not my business, I don't want to be involved. Speak for yourself, Tali. Problem solved.

You may think that's more important, but you're an alien. You are not the one who should be making that decision on behalf of the quarian people. I mean, yeah, you came back from the dead and all that, but you're not the quarian Messiah. You shouldn't be the one who decides which is the best course of action for an alien species. You were tasked with finding evidence to clear Tali's name, and to retake a ship overrun with geth. You accomplish both, but somehow you are now asked to conceal the evidence you find—commit perjury—in order to make your teammate happy, and maybe help preserve the stability of the quarian government. I'm still not quite sure why everybody flips out when they learn the truth anyway. All I can say is, I don't have a lot of respect for the quarian government, if they're that fragile, and I really don't have any respect for Tali's code of ethics.

[ImmortalWarrior]

Nyoka wrote...

When the president of the united states says talks about "America's interest", he's not being racist, even though not every person in the country shares those interests. He¡s talking of America as a nation, not as the set of every person living there. When he says Iran can't be trusted, he's not talking about every specific Iranian person, but about the country.

Same thing Ashley talking about "the turians". She's not talking about every specific turian in the galaxy, but about their identity and interests as a nation, because "the turians" don't have an unifying name like "the turian empire" or something ("turianity"?)

Her mistrust then is a lot more reasonable. It's not just because they are from another species, but because they are members of another faction in the galactic playboard. If you think there was no reason to be cautious, you should look at Tali sending Geth data back to the fleet, or Legion stealing data from Tali to warn its people. Those are real examples of squadmates doing stuff on their own, without Shepard's permission, to give their respective factions an edge, so what Ashley was wary of actually happened. She wasn't so unreasonable after all!

FINALLY! An intelligent refute to the argument.  Thank you for contributing something meaningful.  I see what you mean, and i agree with the nation thing.  That is an interesting way to look at it and I never thought of it that way. I still feel there is racism in some of the things Ash says though.  I guess we won't truly know more until ME3.

Modifié par ImmortalWarrior, 03 mai 2011 - 04:48 .

[MisterJB]

jamesp81 wrote...

Koris is an unelected oligarch.  Period.  Full stop.

Nice way of saying "I have no arguments so let's stop here."

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Funny how subjective that whole "greater good" concept is. I'm sure every terrorist ever born feels that innocents are expendable if it helps their personal idea of the "greater good". Quite a convenient little concept, that greater good.

Yes.
That doesn't make it wrong though.
And guy-who-can't-speak-english-and-keeps-talking-in-circles, I'm tired of you. You really have no interest in actually listening to what I'm saying, and keeps bringing up some random dictionary who apparently has no idea what they're talking about.
Plus, I like debating in English, nothing you're capable of...
So bye.

So, to clarify, are you saying that you agree with terrorists? That they are justified in killing innocents because they think they're serving some 'greater good'? Is that what you're saying?

[ImmortalWarrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

You are forgetting that quarian politics are not your business, and you are also ignoring the fact that you don't know quarian politics as well as Tali, so your opinion is worth less than hers.

And what I said about Rael'Zorah is that, between tarnishing the image of a dead man and protecting the stability of the quarian society, the latter is more important.

If it's not my business, I don't want to be involved. Speak for yourself, Tali. Problem solved.

You may think that's more important, but you're an alien. You are not the one who should be making that decision on behalf of the quarian people. I mean, yeah, you came back from the dead and all that, but you're not the quarian Messiah. You shouldn't be the one who decides which is the best course of action for an alien species. You were tasked with finding evidence to clear Tali's name, and to retake a ship overrun with geth. You accomplish both, but somehow you are now asked to conceal the evidence you find—commit perjury—in order to make your teammate happy, and maybe help preserve the stability of the quarian government. I'm still not quite sure why everybody flips out when they learn the truth anyway. All I can say is, I don't have a lot of respect for the quarian government, if they're that fragile, and I really don't have any respect for Tali's code of ethics.

I'd hope you don't treat your real friends that way.

"All I can say is, I don't have a lot of respect for the quarian
government, if they're that fragile, and I really don't have any respect
for Tali's code of ethics."

Kill her off then and be on your merry way without her in ME3

Modifié par ImmortalWarrior, 03 mai 2011 - 04:53 .

[Siansonea]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
*snips*

Try and not let your feelings towards Tali bias your decision.  Even if you dislike Tali, withholding the evidence is the morally better choice. 

I'm not saying your moral compass is f**ked, but Hitler thought Aushwitz and 400,000 butchered and tortured jews was a morally better choice too.

You are making a false analogy with regard to Hitler, and you know it. That is not an equivalent situation in any way. If anything, Tali concealing her father's war crimes is analogous to someone concealing Hitler's war crimes "to preserve the status quo of Europe". Not on the same scale, certainly, but you're the one who introduced the parallel.

[jamesp81]

lolwut666 wrote...

@jamesp81

How is exiling one person the same as sacrificing lives?

First of all, exiling Tali was a democratic procedure. Second of all, are you going to tell me that you are a tyrant just because you prohibit someone you don't like from entering your house? Because that's what exile is, in simple terms.

Really?

Exile is not sacrificing lives.  I don't know where you got this "sacrificing lives" thing.  Non-sequitur.  Furthermore, "exiling" someone from my home has no relationship to unjust prosecution against someone for political goals.

Tali was subject to possible exile by a group of four unelected officials.  No one voted for them to hold their office.

Exile is used by the Quarians because they apparently don't believe in executing traitors and can't afford the space to imprison them for life.  Nevertheless, what Koris tried to do was label an innocent woman a traitor, which would be a death penalty crime in most places.  I simply propose Koris personally suffer the punishment he tried unjustly hand out to someone else.

I'll be happy to pull the trigger.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 mai 2011 - 04:59 .

[lolwut666]

@Nodscouter

Killing people for the sake of a higher cause is not justified.

You can tell yourself whatever you want, but in practice you're not going to last long.

Nobody likes to feel expendable, which is why pragmatists will never beat idealists.

Your plan may or may not be better, but so many people will support the idealist that his plan - which may or may not be worse - will end up succedind anyway.

That's just survival instinct. People will only follow someone they feel like they can trust their lives to.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 04:55 .

[Siansonea]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

You are forgetting that quarian politics are not your business, and you are also ignoring the fact that you don't know quarian politics as well as Tali, so your opinion is worth less than hers.

And what I said about Rael'Zorah is that, between tarnishing the image of a dead man and protecting the stability of the quarian society, the latter is more important.

If it's not my business, I don't want to be involved. Speak for yourself, Tali. Problem solved.

You may think that's more important, but you're an alien. You are not the one who should be making that decision on behalf of the quarian people. I mean, yeah, you came back from the dead and all that, but you're not the quarian Messiah. You shouldn't be the one who decides which is the best course of action for an alien species. You were tasked with finding evidence to clear Tali's name, and to retake a ship overrun with geth. You accomplish both, but somehow you are now asked to conceal the evidence you find—commit perjury—in order to make your teammate happy, and maybe help preserve the stability of the quarian government. I'm still not quite sure why everybody flips out when they learn the truth anyway. All I can say is, I don't have a lot of respect for the quarian government, if they're that fragile, and I really don't have any respect for Tali's code of ethics.

I'd hope you don't treat your real friends that way.

Once again, an appeal to the emotions. I thought women were supposed to be the emotional ones? And yet all you males are advocating 'going with your heart' in a situation that calls for a dispassionate adherence to the law and truth. Feelings are funny things, and everyone's are different. That's why we HAVE laws, so no one person's "feelings" can dictate how the rest of us live our lives. We all have to play by the same rules.