437 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

Siansonea II wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

1) Your definition of Paragon is not absolute;

2) I'm not trying to convince you to like Tali; I'm explaining why I think withholding the evidence is a better option. I'd call that a strawman, but you'd use your "instant discredit" gag, which already made you lose a lot of credit in my eyes;

3) You are doing the "right thing" to yourself, not to others.

I tire of this.

kthxbye

In your opinion, withholding the evidence is the better option.
In my opinion, withholding the evidence is a Renegade act, and I don't like it.

Are these two ideas actually contradicting each other?

The strawman was claiming that I'm trying to convince you to like Tali.

It feels like most of your arguments are fueled by a hatred of Tali rather than logic.

And yes, everything you said is just your opinion. Remember that.

It's not appealing to discuss with a zealot.

@Nyoka

Ad hominem.

classy.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 10:49 .

[JaerWolfe]

PMC65 wrote...
Betrayel makes people do terrible things... add murder to that, oh doggie! 
Garrus saw his team killed and is looking for the Judas. If someone had done that to my Shepard and killed off the ME2 crew, can't say that the Reapers wouldn't fall to the 2nd place of "must kills". Especially if it was someone that Shep trusted. Double ZAP! 

But I think that my Shep would want to look that Judas in the eye as she pulls the trigger on the Collector Particle Beam. Is that wrong? 

P.S. Garrus sucks at cleaning grafitti off walls.

Garrus wants vengeance, that's fine. If he wanted to confront Sidonis on a level playing field, either armed or unarmed, my Shep would have held his water bottle for him as he beat the crap out of him/killed him. Garrus chose neither. He took a gun up against an unarmed turian in a place crowded with civilians. That makes Garrus a coward.

Modifié par JaerWolfe, 03 mai 2011 - 10:48 .

[PMC65]

Siansonea II wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

My friend (Tali) asked for my help .. ok
I took a ride to her "home" where I found a political **** storm happening ... ok
My friend was further set up by having an idiot (me) set to represent her ... what? uh, ok
We find out that her dad was into some "not really legit" stuff ... crap, ok
She begs me not to tarnish his name which will result in her losing everything she loves ... double crap, ok
Without blue-red options my friend is made an outcast ...
To be honest, this wasn't about the 'law' ... it was all political maneuvering regarding the geth.
That was how my Shepard saw it, so Shep protected his friend and used the blue (paragon) option.

And everything you state sounds exactly like what a Renegade would do. "What's the best course of action that benefits me and my friend?" That's not the question a Paragon asks himself. The Paragon holds himself to a higher standard, a standard whereby everyone, including himself, is held accountable. People don't get to circumvent the law just because it's convenient or because they sincerely believe it will benefit some nebulous "greater good".

Wait, let me put my popcorn down .... Having my friend made an "outcast" or being railroaded into a trial by politics is not what my Shepard was expecting. Thank God I could take the paragon option .... The Admiralty board admitted that they were wrong in putting Tali through that and Tali was not made an outcast. The father was still dead ... so everyone was held accountable to each their own sin.
Why didn't you just choose the paragon (blue) response?

Actually, some of my Shepards did. And some of them chose the Renegade response. Some just stood their shuffling their feet. I role-play each Shepard differently, based on that character's concept that I've been building throughout the game. That's not the point of this discussion. The point is, and always has been, that Tali's approach to the situation on the Alarei does not sit well with me. I don't like the fact that in order to win her loyalty (which really ought to be a given, after all that happened in the first story) I have to commit a crime, i.e., perjury, by concealing her father's war crimes. I can either just say I have no evidence, a lie of commission, or I can distract them with a rousing speech about what douchebags they all are for picking on poor li'l Tali, which is a misdirection, a deflection, a lie of omission. I don't like doing that while roleplaying as a Paragon, and I have pretty Lawful tendencies in real life, so naturally characters that favor the Renegade end of the spectrum tend to be less desirable to me.

I have no guilt (paragon or renegade) about that trial.

The trial was never about honor, truth, the AmericanQuarian-way .. the trial was not even about Tali, but the politics of dancing geth. Ahhh, politics at its finest!
So my Shepard recognized that and called the Admirals out. That is not renegade to me, but maybe to you.
Now if you played the trial different, as in truly legit and focused on Tali - ok .... but I chose the "this trial is an absolute sham ... and for such a family-is-first species, how could you tell someone that their father was dead like this?"  

[PMC65]

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...
Betrayel makes people do terrible things... add murder to that, oh doggie! 
Garrus saw his team killed and is looking for the Judas. If someone had done that to my Shepard and killed off the ME2 crew, can't say that the Reapers wouldn't fall to the 2nd place of "must kills". Especially if it was someone that Shep trusted. Double ZAP! 

But I think that my Shep would want to look that Judas in the eye as she pulls the trigger on the Collector Particle Beam. Is that wrong? 

P.S. Garrus sucks at cleaning grafitti off walls.

Garrus wants vengeance, that's fine. If he wanted to confront Sidonis on a level playing field, either armed or unarmed, my Shep would have held his water bottle for him as he beat the crap out of him/killed him. Garrus chose neither. He took a gun up against an unarmed turian in a place crowded with civilians. That makes Garrus a coward.

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

[lolwut666]

@JaerWolfe

I don't think assassination is something that simple.

Don't forget that it was Sidonis who got to choose where he'd meet Shepard, and it just happened to be somewhere close to civilians. It's safer to be in places with lots of people.

He would've been caught if he ran up to Sidonis and tried to beat him to death, so he had to snipe him from a distance.

[JaerWolfe]

PMC65 wrote...

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

I don't think I really need to address the stupidity of Shep putting her head in the LOS of Garrus. Or anyone. There's reasons I've only ever done that LM twice in my 30 something playthroughs.

[JaerWolfe]

Arcian wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...

That makes Garrus a coward.

No, that makes him a sniper.

Jesus Christ.

Wrong. Garrus was not at war. Garrus had not been given orders to take out an enemy target. He was acting on his own to feed his own narcissitic need.

[PMC65]

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

I don't think I really need to address the stupidity of Shep putting her head in the LOS of Garrus. Or anyone. There's reasons I've only ever done that LM twice in my 30 something playthroughs.

My LM dread is the Samara / Morinth one ... That life-sucking chick scares the bippy out of my Shep. I can't believe that people pick her over Samara sometimes. The thought of her walking the Normandy sounds insane!

The Asari mind-meldy thing already freaks me a little ... even my Shep that has Liara as the LI. But add suck the life out of you as well? She makes Zaeed look like a fuzzy bunny.

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snip*

In your opinion, withholding the evidence is the better option.
In my opinion, withholding the evidence is a Renegade act, and I don't like it.

Are these two ideas actually contradicting each other?

The strawman was claiming that I'm trying to convince you to like Tali.

It feels like most of your arguments are fueled by a hatred of Tali rather than logic.

And yes, everything you said is just your opinion. Remember that.

It's not appealing to discuss with a zealot.

@Nyoka

Ad hominem.

classy.

I never said that my opinion was ever anything but my opinion. In my opinion, I don't like Tali. That's my opinion. I don't understand why that's somehow a bad thing.

I'm not arguing over anyone else's reasons for disliking characters. Everyone has their reasons. I shared mine. But it's not illogical to dislike people who don't respect the law. If anything, it's completely logical. And all other considerations aside, you simply cannot claim that Tali is acting in accordance with quarian law, because she isn't. She's asking Shepard to ignore quarian law, for her own personal reasons, and also because she thinks it's better in the long run for the quarian race in general. Whether you agree with her conclusions or not, she's still asking you to break the law. What happens afterward is what happens afterward, no one can know beyond a doubt what WILL happen if Shepard gives the evidence. Unless quarians or psychic and I missed that in the Codex.

Are you denying that this is what's happening? Are you denying that Tali is going against the laws of her own people? Because that's part of the basis for my dislike of Tali. Another part of it is that regardless of whether Tali is criticized fairly or unfairly, her fans show up in force to "defend" her. I'm not stating anything about Tali that isn't true, you know. I'm not calling her a big poopy face meanie head or anything. What have I said about her that isn't true?

[JaerWolfe]

lolwut666 wrote...

@JaerWolfe

I don't think assassination is something that simple.

Don't forget that it was Sidonis who got to choose where he'd meet Shepard, and it just happened to be somewhere close to civilians. It's safer to be in places with lots of people.

He would've been caught if he ran up to Sidonis and tried to beat him to death, so he had to snipe him from a distance.

Assassination is different than vengeance, though there is cross over. Garrus' goal was vengeance. I have no quarrel with that. Sidonis betrayed him. Garrus' method of getting that vengeance is what I have an issue with. Garrus was the one that chose to ignore the fact there were civilians around. His vengeance was more important than their trauma, but, hey, good thing there's no children in the ME universe, right?
The sheer fact you worry that Garrus' 'would've been caught' should be setting warning bells off in your head about the morality of the issue.

I'm out for the next couple of hours. I'll pick this up if it's still going on when I get home tonight.

[Siansonea]

PMC65 wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

I don't think I really need to address the stupidity of Shep putting her head in the LOS of Garrus. Or anyone. There's reasons I've only ever done that LM twice in my 30 something playthroughs.

My LM dread is the Samara / Morinth one ... That life-sucking chick scares the bippy out of my Shep. I can't believe that people pick her over Samara sometimes. The thought of her walking the Normandy sounds insane!

The Asari mind-meldy thing already freaks me a little ... even my Shep that has Liara as the LI. But add suck the life out of you as well? She makes Zaeed look like a fuzzy bunny.

This is one of the stupidest choices in the game. It really crosses the line from "Renegade" to "Evil". Regardless of whether you like Samara or not, she is a revered member of asari society, and her daughter is a fugitive from justice. Allowing her daughter to live is bad enough, but allowing her to kill a Justicar, and then assume her identity? BEYOND evil. And also, really, really stupid. That said, of course, one of my Shepards did exactly that, because, well, she's evil and stupid.

[lolwut666]

@Siansonea II

When did I say she was not breaking the law? Straw man, yo.

In fact, I said in one of my posts that my idea of a Paragon is someone who strives to do good without sacrifing anyone, and that is willing to break a few laws if there is no other option.

The point is that I give more importance to the quarians themselves than their laws, which is why I think not giving the data to the Admiralty Board is the better choice.

Once again you are arguing that I am defending Tali when in truth I am defending the decision to not give the data to the Admiralty board.

[PMC65]

JaerWolfe wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@JaerWolfe

I don't think assassination is something that simple.

Don't forget that it was Sidonis who got to choose where he'd meet Shepard, and it just happened to be somewhere close to civilians. It's safer to be in places with lots of people.

He would've been caught if he ran up to Sidonis and tried to beat him to death, so he had to snipe him from a distance.

Assassination is different than vengeance, though there is cross over. Garrus' goal was vengeance. I have no quarrel with that. Sidonis betrayed him. Garrus' method of getting that vengeance is what I have an issue with. Garrus was the one that chose to ignore the fact there were civilians around. His vengeance was more important than their trauma, but, hey, good thing there's no children in the ME universe, right?
The sheer fact you worry that Garrus' 'would've been caught' should be setting warning bells off in your head about the morality of the issue.

I'm out for the next couple of hours. I'll pick this up if it's still going on when I get home tonight.

You know, I never really thought about the people walking about. Crap! Now I am going to notice that in my game play and stop Garrus from killing the jerk. You have forever wrecked that LM! (raises fist and shakes it at you) Darn you I say!
Seriously, I never did think about the people and what happened after we strolled off into the sunset.

[PMC65]

Siansonea II wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

I don't think I really need to address the stupidity of Shep putting her head in the LOS of Garrus. Or anyone. There's reasons I've only ever done that LM twice in my 30 something playthroughs.

My LM dread is the Samara / Morinth one ... That life-sucking chick scares the bippy out of my Shep. I can't believe that people pick her over Samara sometimes. The thought of her walking the Normandy sounds insane!

The Asari mind-meldy thing already freaks me a little ... even my Shep that has Liara as the LI. But add suck the life out of you as well? She makes Zaeed look like a fuzzy bunny.

This is one of the stupidest choices in the game. It really crosses the line from "Renegade" to "Evil". Regardless of whether you like Samara or not, she is a revered member of asari society, and her daughter is a fugitive from justice. Allowing her daughter to live is bad enough, but allowing her to kill a Justicar, and then assume her identity? BEYOND evil. And also, really, really stupid. That said, of course, one of my Shepards did exactly that, because, well, she's evil and stupid.

That Shepard has quads! That creature freaks even my baddest of bad Shepard out. Did you evil & stupid Shepard fall for the seduction at the end of the game?

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

When did I say she was not breaking the law? Straw man, yo.

In fact, I said in one of my posts that my idea of a Paragon is someone who strives to do good without sacrifing anyone, and that is willing to break a few laws if there is no other option.

The point is that I give more importance to the quarians themselves than their laws, which is why I think not giving the data to the Admiralty Board is the better choice.

Once again you are arguing that I am defending Tali when in truth I am defending the decision to not give the data to the Admiralty board.

Well, yo. What are we, 12?

You are welcome to your opinion about the events, and so am I. You can insist that Tali is somehow correct in telling Shepard to break the law, you can insist that her attitude toward quarian law is perfectly justifiable. But I still think she was more concerned about her own personal feelings than anything else, and regardless, lying to the Admiralty Board is not a very Paragon thing to do, in my opinion. Shepard took the easy way out, and he caved to Tali's wishes, in my opinion. That's my opinion. You're welcome to having your own opinion that's different from mine. If you think 'breaking a few laws' is okay, all I can say is: Don't get caught. Judges and juries are going to be a lot harder to convince than I have been.

[Siansonea]

PMC65 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

The bastard! But then, how could Shep put his/her head in between the gun and Sidonis? At close range that would have been really awkward .... I thought My Shep's head in that scope looked cool. 

I don't think I really need to address the stupidity of Shep putting her head in the LOS of Garrus. Or anyone. There's reasons I've only ever done that LM twice in my 30 something playthroughs.

My LM dread is the Samara / Morinth one ... That life-sucking chick scares the bippy out of my Shep. I can't believe that people pick her over Samara sometimes. The thought of her walking the Normandy sounds insane!

The Asari mind-meldy thing already freaks me a little ... even my Shep that has Liara as the LI. But add suck the life out of you as well? She makes Zaeed look like a fuzzy bunny.

This is one of the stupidest choices in the game. It really crosses the line from "Renegade" to "Evil". Regardless of whether you like Samara or not, she is a revered member of asari society, and her daughter is a fugitive from justice. Allowing her daughter to live is bad enough, but allowing her to kill a Justicar, and then assume her identity? BEYOND evil. And also, really, really stupid. That said, of course, one of my Shepards did exactly that, because, well, she's evil and stupid.

That Shepard has quads! That creature freaks even my baddest of bad Shepard out. Did you evil & stupid Shepard fall for the seduction at the end of the game?

I did say she was stupid, didn't I?

[Clonedzero]

JaerWolfe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...
Betrayel makes people do terrible things... add murder to that, oh doggie! 
Garrus saw his team killed and is looking for the Judas. If someone had done that to my Shepard and killed off the ME2 crew, can't say that the Reapers wouldn't fall to the 2nd place of "must kills". Especially if it was someone that Shep trusted. Double ZAP! 

But I think that my Shep would want to look that Judas in the eye as she pulls the trigger on the Collector Particle Beam. Is that wrong? 

P.S. Garrus sucks at cleaning grafitti off walls.

Garrus wants vengeance, that's fine. If he wanted to confront Sidonis on a level playing field, either armed or unarmed, my Shep would have held his water bottle for him as he beat the crap out of him/killed him. Garrus chose neither. He took a gun up against an unarmed turian in a place crowded with civilians. That makes Garrus a coward.

Garrus isnt a coward lol.

he just wanted a sure thing.

[lolwut666]

@Siansonea II

Right on, brotha.

You have opinions; I have opinions. She has opinions; so does he, and they have opinions too.

Opinions everywhere, dawg.

Keepin' it real, yo.

[PMC65]

Siansonea II wrote...

I did say she was stupid, didn't I?

Stupid but fearless!

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Siansonea II

Right on, brotha.

You have opinions; I have opinions. She has opinions; so does he, and they have opinions too.

Opinions everywhere, dawg.

Keepin' it real, yo.

Riiiiiight. Uh, Far Out? Sit on it, Potsie? Nanu-nanu? Who shot J.R.?

Rock on, Soul Sister.

[lolwut666]

Siansonea II wrote...

Rock on, Soul Sister.

I'm a guy, though.

Just FYI.

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Rock on, Soul Sister.

I'm a guy, though.

Just FYI.

And I'm an old lady. I thought we were doing cross-gender greetings. I thought it was one of those new things like, when girls call other girls "dude". I can't keep up with all the lingo you young people come up with...