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[BTG_01]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Also his "let the council die" line scared me:
"the council MUST be sacraficed.  Leave the destiny ascension and focus the human fleet on Sovereign."

Most of the characters change their opinions depending on who you've brought with you on the final mission. It's a little unfair to condemn Garrus for this when he also argues in favor of saving the Council half the time. Ashley's line about "what have they ever done for us" also sounds callous, but I woudn't hold it against her, mostly because I like Ash, but also because the characters are just meant to provide you with two conflicting opinions at that point. It's fine to dislike Garrus, but I wouldn't hold that particular line against him, or any of them for that matter.

Modifié par BTG_01, 01 mai 2011 - 04:07 .

[ADLegend21]

Seboist wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Zaeed also talks about missions Shepard completed in ME2 and makes comments about other squadmates. Which is something Jacob and the rest of the crew for that matter (except Kasumi) don't do.

Zaeed is a good man.

he's a DLC character so he can only make comments on the crew (joker does so wth who you went out on the last mission with)  Also a good man, doesn't let civilians die he can kill one man. I don't let him kill Vido anymore, but I do take him on mission that cripple the blue suns because I refuse to let civilians die to make on man happy.

Vido was a scumbag that's behind a lot of the blue sun's misdeeds in ME2. He had to be taken out and my femshep was happy to oblige.

He's the kind of guy I'd like to "get loud and spill some drinks on the citadel" with as Jacob would say.

Zaeed is also a scumbag. he leaves people behind on dangerous missions so he can survive. he has no grasp of teamwork and puts innocents in dager and lets them die that's worse than what Vido did. He starts the fire and then doesn't even wanna put it out. it was basically one bastard killing another, plus there are tons of other sid emissions about the blue suns that go with, with or without Vido so theoutcome of Zaeed's mission doens't have any effect on the blue suns whatsoever.

[ADLegend21]

BTG_01 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Also his "let the council die" line scared me:
"the council MUST be sacraficed.  Leave the destiny ascension and focus the human fleet on Sovereign."

Most of the characters change their opinions depending on who you've brought with you on the final mission. It's a little unfair to condemn Garrus for this when he also argues in favor of saving the Council half the time. Ashley's line about "what have they ever done for us" also sounds callous, but I woudn't hold it against her, mostly because I like Ash, but also because the characters are just meant to provide you with two conflicting opinions at that point. It's fine to dislike Garrus, but I wouldn't hold that particular line against him, or any of them for that matter.

that's true and it was mostly a side point, but it's alot more vicious than any other line about sacraficing them. Ashley's is more accurate because they ahven't done anything for Humanity, but garrus is a member of a council race and for him to say that they had to be sacraficed like it was a fact was just....ugh.

[Seboist]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Zaeed also talks about missions Shepard completed in ME2 and makes comments about other squadmates. Which is something Jacob and the rest of the crew for that matter (except Kasumi) don't do.

Zaeed is a good man.

he's a DLC character so he can only make comments on the crew (joker does so wth who you went out on the last mission with)  Also a good man, doesn't let civilians die he can kill one man. I don't let him kill Vido anymore, but I do take him on mission that cripple the blue suns because I refuse to let civilians die to make on man happy.

Vido was a scumbag that's behind a lot of the blue sun's misdeeds in ME2. He had to be taken out and my femshep was happy to oblige.

He's the kind of guy I'd like to "get loud and spill some drinks on the citadel" with as Jacob would say.

Zaeed is also a scumbag. he leaves people behind on dangerous missions so he can survive. he has no grasp of teamwork and puts innocents in dager and lets them die that's worse than what Vido did. He starts the fire and then doesn't even wanna put it out. it was basically one bastard killing another, plus there are tons of other sid emissions about the blue suns that go with, with or without Vido so theoutcome of Zaeed's mission doens't have any effect on the blue suns whatsoever.

Zaeed never said he left people behind on missions. They just weren't as cool as he was and got killed.

[ADLegend21]

Arcian wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
Miranda is the ideal XO in this regard. She is the only one on the ship with 24hr access to the Illusive Man. She is the only one on the ship who can get Cerberus to deliver weapons, ammunition and equipment. Trust has ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THSI JOB!

They are on an independent ship which produces its own weapons, ammunition and equipment. Cerberus delivers nothing. Everything else, Shepard has to buy with his own money.

uih no. Miranda is the in game reason for all the DLC weapons and armor she requested them from other cells and such. The Normandy just upgrades them and Shepard doesn't buy weapons anymore, She finds them on missions.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly, my only reason for not liking Miranda is the Jack confrontation. I felt that Miranda should have been smarter and more mature than she was in that situation (especially with my Femshep, where there wasn't an added layer of romantic tension). When an abuse survivor is angry about their past abuse, you don't try to excuse it away.

If Miranda had been saying something like "Yes, that was terrible, and it shows a side of Cerberus that I hope we've managed to eliminate. I promise I'll do my best to make sure nothing like that happens in this organization again." and Jack had been refusing to listen to reason, I would have been cool with the fight. But saying "it wasn't Cerberus, not really," in that condescending voice, to a girl who is obviously mentally ill and needs some help? That ticked me off more than anything any of my squadmates have ever done.

Well, other than Zaeed setting that oil refinery on fire. But I said "screw your loyalty, we're saving these people" and he still managed to get over it and deal. Because he's a professional.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 mai 2011 - 05:15 .

[ADLegend21]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, my only reason for not liking Miranda is the Jack confrontation. I felt that Miranda should have been smarter and more mature than she was in that situation (especially with my Femshep, where there wasn't an added layer of romantic tension). When an abuse survivor is angry about their past abuse, you don't try to excuse it away.

If Miranda had been saying something like "Yes, that was terrible, and it shows a side of Cerberus that I hope we've managed to eliminate. I promise I'll do my best to make sure nothing like that happens in this organization again." and Jack had been refusing to listen to reason, I would have been cool with the fight. But saying "it wasn't Cerberus, not really," in that condescending voice, to a girl who is obviously mentally ill and needs some help? That ticked me off more than anything any of my squadmates have ever done.

Well, other than Zaeed setting that oil refinery on fire. But I said "screw your loyalty, we're saving these people" and he still managed to get over it and deal. Because he's a professional.

zaeed's is in mission and he's  DLC so he can't have a loyalty confrontation. Also Jack probably blamed Miranda for what happened to her which is completely untrue. just speculation, but I always have enough so that I don't lose either of them.

[Eradyn]

And here I thought this was going to be a parody thread, which would have been brilliant.  Alas, it is but another recycled thread perpetuating flames and hate.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also have enough points to Paragon out of that situation, but I resent that they make me do it. In real life, I would have preferred to support Jack openly, because she needs support. Then, when I go to talk to Miranda about it, I shouldn't have to kiss her butt... I should just be able to say "can't you see we need to help Jack?" and have her agree. Miranda should be stronger, is all I'm saying.

And Jack's line is "the Cheerleader won't admit that what Cerberus did to me was wrong."
"It wasn't Cerberus, not really... but clearly you were a mistake."

Ugh, that line... it's so condescending and backhanded. Maybe it's the writers' fault, but there are so many much more mature ways Miranda could have handled it. She was egging Jack on, though, and that's just not cool. She can have whatever "feelings" about Jack she wants to have, but if she expects me to trust her as an XO, she has to learn humility and diplomacy.

I don't actually hate Miranda and I'm not trying to flame, but that one confrontation moved her to the bottom of my rankings. I don't dislike anyone on my crew, I just like Miranda the least.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[ADLegend21]

Eradyn wrote...

And here I thought this was going to be a parody thread, which would have been brilliant.  Alas, it is but another recycled thread perpetuating flames and hate.

it's not perpetuating anything, it's based on things I've seen trhoughout the BSN in my time here.if you don't like it, oh well, can't please everyone.

[Siansonea]

Virmire Survivor: I don’t hate either of them, but Ash did rub me the wrong way in ME1. I have since learned to appreciate Ash’s strength and other fine qualities. I always thought Kaidan got a bad rap, but it was mostly from young males, so I ignored it. All in all, most people who seem to really hate the Horizon encounter seem to be operating on Fail Logic. That is, they seem to think that the Virmire Survivor should be acting upon the player’s knowledge of events, rather than the knowledge that the characters themselves have. When I heard Kaidan ripping into Devon Shepard on Horizon the first time, I was actually applauding the fact that someone was calling him out for working with Cerberus. Garrus was all “Cerberus? Oh yeah, those terrorists who killed all those innocents in the first game. Whatever. I’m all about righting wrongs and helping the helpless and all that, but somehow that doesn’t apply to Cerberus.” Or words to that effect.

Jacob: My biggest problem with Jacob has always been his Bad Tactical Advice. Dude is supposed to be the most military-minded person on the squad, and he volunteers HIMSELF to go into the vents? Pretty much every time he gives you advice about combat tactics, you have to do the opposite to get the best results, and it sucks that his character got stuck with having to deliver those lines. I also think his voice actor isn’t that great, he often sounds “petulant”, for lack of a better word. “Satisfied, Miranda?” Whoa, where’s the attitude comin’ from J? And his snippy attitude toward Thane is kind of ridiculous too. Dude, you work for CERBERUS. And you’re contemptuous of a paid assassin? That said, I actually don’t dislike Jacob, and I think some of his flaws make him a more interesting character.

Garrus: I really like the Garrus voice actor, but I get why some people are kinda over him. There’s just not enough content there, not to mention the fact that Garrus is kind of a vigilante. I’m not crazy about that character type. And calibrations...

Tali: I think ADLegend makes a lot of good points about Tali, but I also think Tali is just immature. She would rather be EXILED than soil her father’s memory. Which would be admirable, except that her father committed WAR CRIMES and she becomes “disloyal” if you do the right thing by exposing his war crimes to the Admiralty Board. So, in order to keep Tali’s loyalty, you have to collude with her in covering up her father’s war crimes, either by lying outright, or by distracting the Admiralty Board with rhetoric. So all of the people on the Alarei who died (“Be strong for Daddy, Mommy loves you very much”) get no justice, and Rael’Zorah’s single-minded geth hatred goes unpunished. NOT COOL. Just like Garrus’ vigilantism, this ‘end justifies the means’ mentality is really off-putting. Tali’s schoolgirl crush on Shepard, and its ridiculous biological complications and ramifications don’t help matters.

Miranda: I LOVE Miranda. She’s her own woman, she knows who she is, and she’ll put you in your place if you cross her. What’s not to love? Well, if you expect all women to treat you like a saviour (Space Jesus?) or just generally fall at your feet and worship you (see Tali) then you will naturally hate Miranda. But the beauty of that is, Miranda STILL WON’T CARE, because she knows that you, Shepard, are a douche anyway.

[MGIII]

Miranda: people think she's a ****, "panders".

Jacob: people think he's boring.

Zaeed: can't talk with him, can't romance him, loyalty mission makes you renegade to keep him loyal.

Kasumi: can't talk with her, can't romance her.

Garrus: half his face blown off, complains a lot, he looks like a chicken, always calibrating.

Thane: dying, the way his voice sounds.

Legion: geth, comes in super late into the story, wears a part of Shepard's old armor, constantly reminds the player how inefficient we are.

Jack: psychotic, confrontational, wears next to nothing, bald.

Mordin: talks differently, not romance-able,

Tali: never shows her face, doesn't join the player right away, funky accent.

Samara: can't romance her, "panders," her code

Grunt: looks like a frog, doesn't understand himself or his purpose, attacks Shepard to begin their relationship.

If I had to guess why others dislike these characters, those would be the reasons. Also, people like to hate on others like, so there's that as well.

Modifié par MGIII, 01 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Why any character in a work of fiction is hated, ever:

1. A person analyzes the character from a literary standpoint and disagrees with the author's choices and/or believes he or she did a lousy job. This can include anything from lack of continuity to being an "author's pet."

2. A person analyzes the character as another person, and finds him/her/it to be unlikable in some way. He or she may dislike the character's personality traits, disagree with the character's actions or points of view, or find the character unattractive.

3. A person judges a character on others who either like or dislike that character, and either join in on the hate or grow tired of the obnoxious behavior of that character's fanbase.

4. Sh*ts and giggles.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Why any character in a work of fiction is hated, ever:

1. A person analyzes the character from a literary standpoint and disagrees with the author's choices and/or believes he or she did a lousy job. This can include anything from lack of continuity to being an "author's pet."

2. A person analyzes the character as another person, and finds him/her/it to be unlikable in some way. He or she may dislike the character's personality traits, disagree with the character's actions or points of view, or find the character unattractive.

3. A person judges a character on others who either like or dislike that character, and either join in on the hate or grow tired of the obnoxious behavior of that character's fanbase.

4. Sh*ts and giggles.

I would say point 2 is the sign of a well crafted character. Since you don't hate them from a meta-gaming standpoint.

[Nodscouter]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Miranda: She's on Shepard's level. She's as close to an equal (pending the filling in of the VS's time during Shepard's death"  Shepard has. She's incredibly intelligent, and amazing leader, extrordinalriy talent in combat  incredibly beautiful and she knows it. She rubs alot of people the wrong way, but despite that she gets the job done. She's the perfect XO for shepard because she's a task manager and knows the squad's strengths and weaknesses and can plan accordingly. I'd have no worries should Shepard have to leave the Normandy for an extended period of time during ME3 because I know Miri's got it under control.

Right, I can see your points on other characters, although I disagree on why they're hated, or even if they're hated, but this... Is just random. You say that you're explaining why people hate certain characters, but this part is just why you like her, not why others hate her. I am curious as to why you decided to include this in your post. The only part where this even have some resemblance to the purpose of this thread is ''She rubs alot of people the wrong way'', and despite that that might be true, it's just stating a fact. Not giving a reason as to why that fact is true, which would seem what this thread was made to be.

[MGIII]

Nodscouter wrote...

Right, I can see your points on other characters, although I disagree on why they're hated, or even if they're hated, but this... Is just random. You say that you're explaining why people hate certain characters, but this part is just why you like her, not why others hate her. I am curious as to why you decided to include this in your post. The only part where this even have some resemblance to the purpose of this thread is ''She rubs alot of people the wrong way'', and despite that that might be true, it's just stating a fact. Not giving a reason as to why that fact is true, which would seem what this thread was made to be.

Most of the Miranda hate stems from the fact that she's obviously made to be attractive to that "18-30 male" crowd, with her tight suit that accentuates her "gifts". So, people just write her off from that attribute alone, and pervert most of her characterization as nothing more than justification to have a "bimbo in space."

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

I would say point 2 is the sign of a well crafted character. Since you don't hate them from a meta-gaming standpoint.

It is, indeed.  And that's why, even though I really don't like Ashley, I can appreciate her as a character.  It's also why I give Garrus' hotheadedness and Tali's close-mindedness about the geth a pass.  They're character traits meant to polarize the audience.  Because of this, I wind up liking a lot of characters I'm supposed to hate.

Liara, however, I dislike for reason #1, even though there are very few #2 reasons to hate on her.  Tali suffers a bit from #1 as well (thanks to the whole damsel-in-distress thing).  However, I can still like these characters for their personality traits.

The only character I legitimately hate is Harbinger.  And that's because he's a goddamn troll.

[Nodscouter]

@mrsph Most points are completely correct, but most hate against Thane seems to stem from his philosophies that excuse himself from the guilt.

MGIII wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Right, I can see your points on other characters, although I disagree on why they're hated, or even if they're hated, but this... Is just random. You say that you're explaining why people hate certain characters, but this part is just why you like her, not why others hate her. I am curious as to why you decided to include this in your post. The only part where this even have some resemblance to the purpose of this thread is ''She rubs alot of people the wrong way'', and despite that that might be true, it's just stating a fact. Not giving a reason as to why that fact is true, which would seem what this thread was made to be.

Most of the Miranda hate stems from the fact that she's obviously made to be attractive to that "18-30 male" crowd, with her tight suit that accentuates her "gifts". So, people just write her off from that attribute alone, and pervert most of her characterization as nothing more than justification to have a "bimbo in space."

That kind of answer was what I wanted in the first post, not explained when someone asked him about it.
While I do dislike Miranda, it's not because of that, and it's not my dislike of her that made me write that post. I was just pointing out that instead of providing a summing up of why people hate or dislike her and then providing accurate reasons to why you shouldn't hate her for earlier mentioned reasons or just prove that their reasons are completely innacurate, the OP just made a post about why he liked her.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 01 mai 2011 - 06:30 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I would say point 2 is the sign of a well crafted character. Since you don't hate them from a meta-gaming standpoint.

It is, indeed.  And that's why, even though I really don't like Ashley, I can appreciate her as a character.  It's also why I give Garrus' hotheadedness and Tali's close-mindedness about the geth a pass.  They're character traits meant to polarize the audience.  Because of this, I wind up liking a lot of characters I'm supposed to hate.

Liara, however, I dislike for reason #1, even though there are very few #2 reasons to hate on her.  Tali suffers a bit from #1 as well (thanks to the whole damsel-in-distress thing).  However, I can still like these characters for their personality traits.

The only character I legitimately hate is Harbinger.  And that's because he's a goddamn troll.

Indeed, I think that Miranda's utter failure to rationally deal with Jack is an important part of her character... she's not used to having to deal with people problems of this particular variety. She's used to having everyone respect her; normally she coudl just get rid of anyone who doesn't fall in with her perception of how the mission should be completed - she doesn't understand that we can't just dump Jack off at the nearest spaceport, that we actually need her. Working with someone who isn't an efficient Cerberus operative is outside of her comfort zone, so we get to see a flaw in her "perfection." 

It just happens to be that the one flaw in her perfection is the thing I really can't stand. Compassion for people who are in pain is one of the most important things for me, and if you claim to be perfect but you lack that compassion, then you ain't perfect. This actually makes Miranda more interesting from my perspective, but less likeable.

I used to dislike Zaeed for similar reasons, the fact that he was willing to let those factory workers die, but then I realized disliking Zaeed for not caring about casualties is like disliking a seal for eating penguins - sure it's not the most charming thing, but it's a fundamental part of their nature, and they never pretended to be anything different.

And Jacob, poor Jacob. I actually realized recently that one of the things that put him lower on my favorite crew member rankings is how... disconcerted he is by Shepard's awful flirting. I felt like every time I talked to that guy I was making him uncomfortable, so I eventually decided to give him a break and stop talking to him. After I was all hooked up with someone else, he went back to being a cool bro.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 mai 2011 - 06:32 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
It is, indeed.  And that's why, even though I really don't like Ashley, I can appreciate her as a character.  It's also why I give Garrus' hotheadedness and Tali's close-mindedness about the geth a pass.  They're character traits meant to polarize the audience.  Because of this, I wind up liking a lot of characters I'm supposed to hate.

Liara, however, I dislike for reason #1, even though there are very few #2 reasons to hate on her.  Tali suffers a bit from #1 as well (thanks to the whole damsel-in-distress thing).  However, I can still like these characters for their personality traits.

The only character I legitimately hate is Harbinger.  And that's because he's a goddamn troll.

Indeed. Most of the characters I complain about is often those I hate from a meta-gaming standpoint, characters I just wished did not exist in the first place and unless they were given a major re-write, the story would have been better off without them in it (Bioware being able to spend resources elsewhere and all that).

This whole thing about disliking a character from either a meta-gaming or in-story standpoint is why I think most character surveys are kinds pointless. Since most people rarely distinguish between what characters they hate, and what characters they love to hate.

[Seboist]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I would say point 2 is the sign of a well crafted character. Since you don't hate them from a meta-gaming standpoint.

It is, indeed.  And that's why, even though I really don't like Ashley, I can appreciate her as a character.  It's also why I give Garrus' hotheadedness and Tali's close-mindedness about the geth a pass.  They're character traits meant to polarize the audience.  Because of this, I wind up liking a lot of characters I'm supposed to hate.

Liara, however, I dislike for reason #1, even though there are very few #2 reasons to hate on her.  Tali suffers a bit from #1 as well (thanks to the whole damsel-in-distress thing).  However, I can still like these characters for their personality traits.

The only character I legitimately hate is Harbinger.  And that's because he's a goddamn troll.

Sounds like Harbinger did a good job then.

[MGIII]

For what Miranda is, she handled the Jack situation in a way that's consistent with her character. A lot of TIM's qualities have been imprinted on her, despite her naive outlook on Cerberus' goals and excuses she makes for them.