437 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, speaking from my own observation, I would say that especially among the younger fans we see around here, 'rational analysis' or judging characters on their merits is pretty much out the window. It seems completely hormone driven for them. They're not debating the moral implications of characters' actions, the admirable strengths and understandable weaknesses of characters, the intriguing grey areas of morality, etc. They're more concerned with who is do-able and who is bro-worthy. Characters that don't wear their d'aww-ness or brotastic-ness on their sleeves are overlooked or misunderstood completely. Again, that's just speaking from my own personal observation of their behavior.

Right, I'm going to take that as a compliment, seeing as I'm 14, and probably one of the youngest fans here.
And by saying that they're judging them on their own merits, I'm not saying that hey're going like ''Let's see x does y, but also does z, so therefore I should take a few hours to judge whether or not I like x'', I'm saying that if they like the character, it's not because another character they like said ''Oh, that guy's cool'' it's because they themselves said ''Oh, that guy's cool''.
Also note that by ''rational arguments'', I was talking about this particular debate we are in right now.

And yet we just saw an avowed Jack fan taking potshots at Miranda in this very thread. Coincidence?

[Nodscouter]

That's more the case of ''Oh lookie, my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend. Certainly, you have no right to choose what to do in your own game''. Liara, Miranda, Jack, Ashley and Tali fans all take potshots at eachother, mostly. 'Tis the way the forum works.
So yes, bloody coincidence.

[SirCrashalot]

MGIII wrote...

Zaeed: can't talk with him, can't romance him, loyalty mission makes you renegade to keep him loyal.

Not true, you can take the Paragon path and still gain his loyalty.

[Barquiel]

The only Mass Effect character I strongly dislike is Garrus (for the same reasons as the OP).

BobbyTheI wrote...

I'd take the example of what will probably remain one of my favorite BioWare romances of all time, Jaheira in BG2.  Like Miranda, she's initially cold and dismissive of the PC's leadership abilities.  Both are initially wary of forming emotional attachments, considering the dangerous lives they lead and the important mission they're undertaking.  And with Jaheira, it takes about 20+ conversations to go from tsun tsun to dere dere.

I think all Mass Effect romances are too short and rather shallow...compared to the BG 2 romances (Viconia ).

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

That's more the case of ''Oh lookie, my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend. Certainly, you have no right to choose what to do in your own game''. Liara, Miranda, Jack, Ashley and Tali fans all take potshots at eachother, mostly. 'Tis the way the forum works.
So yes, bloody coincidence.

And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

[Seboist]

Siansonea II wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

That's more the case of ''Oh lookie, my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend. Certainly, you have no right to choose what to do in your own game''. Liara, Miranda, Jack, Ashley and Tali fans all take potshots at eachother, mostly. 'Tis the way the forum works.
So yes, bloody coincidence.

And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

My love of Tali hasn't affected my support of Cerberus.

[Siansonea]

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

That's more the case of ''Oh lookie, my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend. Certainly, you have no right to choose what to do in your own game''. Liara, Miranda, Jack, Ashley and Tali fans all take potshots at eachother, mostly. 'Tis the way the forum works.
So yes, bloody coincidence.

And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

My love of Tali hasn't affected my support of Cerberus.

You mean there are instances that don't agree with my general hypothesis? Good thing I didn't postulate it was true in ALL cases. That was a close one!

[Nodscouter]

And it's a good thing you didn't see the point in what he said. Awesome, isn't it?

Siansonea II wrote...
And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

Yes, yes it is.
That's why I'm not saying that.
And sure, perhaps some Jackmancers hates Miranda because of Jack. And perhaps some of us Talimancers hates Cerberus because of Tali.
However, if you do love Jack, would you really like Cerberus in the first place? Same for Tali. It's perhaps not Jack's hate for Miranda that drives Jackmancers away from Miranda, but their initial hate for Miranda and Cerberus that leads them to Jack.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 01 mai 2011 - 08:30 .

[ADLegend21]

darknoon5 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

no ones mentioned hating Wrex. you know why? because you can't hate Wrex. because Wrex is awesome. every other character was mentioned with a negative towards them.

I hated Wrex when he pulled a gun on me in ME1. I chose the option to beat him toa  pulp and shotgun him in the face. but when i saw how much of a douche in Brother was in ME1 I chose Wrex and his awesome "Shepard! my friend!" dialogue.

You killed Wrex? Monster!


(ironic Ash is your prof pic)

haha yes it is. but I didn't take to kindly to him turning on me so *BAM* but yeah Wreav is a complete douche. Wrex is awesome as clan leader.

[MGIII]

Nodscouter wrote...

However, if you do love Jack, would you really like Cerberus in the first place? Same for Tali. It's perhaps not Jack's hate for Miranda that drives Jackmancers away from Miranda, but their initial hate for Miranda and Cerberus that leads them to Jack.

/nods

Modifié par MGIII, 01 mai 2011 - 08:33 .

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

And it's a good thing you didn't see the point in what he said. Awesome, isn't it?

Siansonea II wrote...
And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

Yes, yes it is.
That's why I'm not saying that.
And sure, perhaps some Jackmancers hates Miranda because of Jack. And perhaps some of us Talimancers hates Cerberus because of Tali.
However, if you do love Jack, would you really like Cerberus in the first place? Same for Tali. It's perhaps not Jack's hate for Miranda that drives Jackmancers away from Miranda, but their initial hate for Miranda and Cerberus that leads them to Jack.

Well, that could very well be the case. In any event, it kind of shows that one's sympathies and dislikes don't crystallize independently, but rather in relation to each other, part of the whole point of my "enemy of favorite character is my enemy" hypothesis in the first place. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is irrelevant.

[Nodscouter]

Good to have your support MG.
Edit: Perhaps. But you have to remember, if you do hate Miranda & Cerberus, and this leads you to Jack, isn't that because your opinion is like hers? Isn't that, rather independently forming opinions about the character?

Modifié par Nodscouter, 01 mai 2011 - 08:36 .

[Seboist]

Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

That's more the case of ''Oh lookie, my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend. Certainly, you have no right to choose what to do in your own game''. Liara, Miranda, Jack, Ashley and Tali fans all take potshots at eachother, mostly. 'Tis the way the forum works.
So yes, bloody coincidence.

And yet, this phenomenon of "my fictional girlfriend is better than your fictional girlfriend" is pretty closely related to the "in-game enemy of my favorite character is my enemy" phenomenon. It's not judging a character on their own merits, but rather in comparison to the favorite character, whether in-game or from a metagame standpoint. If you loooooove Jack, then you'll sympathize with her attitude toward Miranda. If you loooooove Tali, you'll sympathize with her hatred of Cerberus and the geth. Similarly, if you looooooove Jack or Tali as an LI, you'll feel that the other LIs are inferior for various 'reasons'. The whole point is that an excessive attachment to a character colors your thinking about the other characters in the game. The idea that the majority of people are impartially evaluating each character dispassionately and formulating their approval of the character based solely on that characters actions as they play through the game is simply preposterous.

My love of Tali hasn't affected my support of Cerberus.

You mean there are instances that don't agree with my general hypothesis? Good thing I didn't postulate it was true in ALL cases. That was a close one!

Indeed and I would go so far as to say that my Shep would side with the Geth if she had to and leave the Quarians to rot on the count of their support being more vital against the Reapers.

[MGIII]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, that could very well be the case. In any event, it kind of shows that one's sympathies and dislikes don't crystallize independently, but rather in relation to each other, part of the whole point of my "enemy of favorite character is my enemy" hypothesis in the first place. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is irrelevant.

Analyzing characters in a vacuum independent of their interaction with the other characters and organizations in the story...doesn't leave much character left to analyze.

Modifié par MGIII, 01 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[Siansonea]

Nodscouter wrote...

Good to have your support MG.
Edit: Perhaps. But you have to remember, if you do hate Miranda & Cerberus, and this leads you to Jack, isn't that because your opinion is like hers? Isn't that, rather independently forming opinions about the character?

No, it's the opposite. You share a world view with a character, form an identification with that character, and approach other characters with the same world view as that character and come to many of the same conclusions about other characters. How is that not exactly what I was saying with the "enemy of favorite character is my enemy" idea? How is it in any way independent? My whole point is that having a significant identification with one character will lead you to sharing that character's opinions of other characters. Yes, this isn't always the case, but I've seen enough Jack fans who hate Miranda, (and vice versa, and other similar dynamics) that I've come to believe that this is a pretty common condition.

[Siansonea]

MGIII wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, that could very well be the case. In any event, it kind of shows that one's sympathies and dislikes don't crystallize independently, but rather in relation to each other, part of the whole point of my "enemy of favorite character is my enemy" hypothesis in the first place. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is irrelevant.

Analyzing characters in a vacuum independent of their interaction with the other characters and organizations in the story...doesn't leave much character left to analyze.

I agree. And I'm not saying it's worth doing. I'm just saying that most people don't do it. My whole point is that the opinion of your favorite character is more often than not going to be reflected in your own opinion. Whether you liked the character first, formed the opinion first, it doesn't matter.

[Nodscouter]

And if you do share the worldview of a character, you will obviously look at other characters the same way it does. Doesn't matter if you've heard their opinion or not.
If you share a worldview with a character, that doesn't mean make your worldview exactly bound to that character's.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Siansonea II wrote...

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

I don't hate any character really, but I do dislike some.
After the first playthrough, Miranda's character started to wear on me as she seemed pompous and followed the cliche of the bad sexy chick who kicks ass in space while wearing catsuits and can never trip and fall with her high heels on during combat... Same goes for Samara/Morinth. Too much of a nerd fantasy.
Ashley seemed to be more realistic when having her as a love interest, Kelly Chambers a close second. Despite what people think about the whole ordeal on Horizon, and I'm not going to go all Dr. Phil herebut it's a pretty believable act that alot of women play out, doesn't matter how irrational it may sound. And if people truly do understand why she did it, and actually been in (or are in) real life relationships, then you would have no reason to hate Ashley.
Now since Kaiden does the same thing, you can say that his implants are flaring up...

Well, the fact that you cite pop-psych guru Dr. Phil as an apparently reliable source of wisdom should have clued me in that the following remarks would be nonsense. "Believable act that a lot of women play out"? "Irrational"? What is irrational is your belief that an Alliance soldier should simply go along with the doppelganger of a confirmed-dead former Spectre who is in the company of known terrorists. That said Alliance operative should drop everything, essentially go AWOL from the Alliance, and follow this person without question. THAT is irrational. Everything Ashley and Kaidan say on Horizon makes perfect sense—unless you expect them to behave as if they have complete knowledge of the storyline and Shepard's 'motivation'. Yeah, if those characters were aware that they were video game characters and not actual people, and had read the entire script of the game before Horizon, then yeah, taking Shepard to task for showing up with Space Terrorists is completely irrational.

And way to frame that idea fail in the most misogynist way possible.<_<

Shepard exclaims he is not working with cerberus, that he is riding along with them for the sake of saving lives. Plus Shepard is right, she was too emotional; she couldn't stop for a second and think things through no matter what. She was holding herself back to go with shepard even when she really does trust and love him. Shepard couldve brought her on the Normandy and sat down with her to explain things, and eventually drop her off somewhere so she can report back to her superiors.  She might find out that not all of the crew members are such bad people. But she was mule headed in her principles and kept her real feelings locked up, then she just ran off... is that rational? No, but it makes sense she would do it anyway. You may call it misogynistic.... but honestly you can't doubt that there was a possibility for her to see at least some reason, she just chose not too. Besides, that message she sends you is a very girlish thing to do... Women do it all the time; they find it easy to convey something on paper (or by phone) rather than talking in person when it is of a real serious matter concerning their relationship. It's like they don't want to be seen when they let loose all of that emotion.
And the whole Dr. Phil thing, I was using it as a sarcastic and vague example... no need to blow it out of proportion and get mad over it; I know the guy is full of crap.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 01 mai 2011 - 09:03 .

[Nodscouter]

And yet, Kaidan did the exact same f*cking thing, so you can blame it on women as much as you can blame it on Mount Everest.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Nodscouter wrote...

And yet, Kaidan did the exact same f*cking thing, so you can blame it on women as much as you can blame it on Mount Everest.

His implants are flaring up. There ya go.

[Seboist]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

And yet, Kaidan did the exact same f*cking thing, so you can blame it on women as much as you can blame it on Mount Everest.

His implants are flaring up. There ya go.

Or he was taking estrogen treatments.

[Siansonea]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

I don't hate any character really, but I do dislike some.
After the first playthrough, Miranda's character started to wear on me as she seemed pompous and followed the cliche of the bad sexy chick who kicks ass in space while wearing catsuits and can never trip and fall with her high heels on during combat... Same goes for Samara/Morinth. Too much of a nerd fantasy.
Ashley seemed to be more realistic when having her as a love interest, Kelly Chambers a close second. Despite what people think about the whole ordeal on Horizon, and I'm not going to go all Dr. Phil herebut it's a pretty believable act that alot of women play out, doesn't matter how irrational it may sound. And if people truly do understand why she did it, and actually been in (or are in) real life relationships, then you would have no reason to hate Ashley.
Now since Kaiden does the same thing, you can say that his implants are flaring up...

Well, the fact that you cite pop-psych guru Dr. Phil as an apparently reliable source of wisdom should have clued me in that the following remarks would be nonsense. "Believable act that a lot of women play out"? "Irrational"? What is irrational is your belief that an Alliance soldier should simply go along with the doppelganger of a confirmed-dead former Spectre who is in the company of known terrorists. That said Alliance operative should drop everything, essentially go AWOL from the Alliance, and follow this person without question. THAT is irrational. Everything Ashley and Kaidan say on Horizon makes perfect sense—unless you expect them to behave as if they have complete knowledge of the storyline and Shepard's 'motivation'. Yeah, if those characters were aware that they were video game characters and not actual people, and had read the entire script of the game before Horizon, then yeah, taking Shepard to task for showing up with Space Terrorists is completely irrational.

And way to frame that idea fail in the most misogynist way possible.<_<

Shepard exclaims he/she is not working with cerberus, that he/she is riding along with them for the sake of saving lives. Plus Shepard is right, she was too emotional; she couldn't stop for a second and think things through no matter what. She was holding herself back to go with shepard even when she really does trust and love him. Shepard couldve brought her on the Normandy and sat down with her to explain things, and eventually drop her off somewhere so she can report back to her superiors.  She might find out that not all of the crew members are such bad people. But she was mule headed in her principles and kept her real feelings locked up, then she just ran off... is that rational? No, but it makes sense she would do it anyway. You may call it misogynistic.... but honestly you can't doubt that there was a possibility for her to see at least some reason, she just chose not too. Besides, that message she sends you is a very girlish thing to do... Women do it all the time; they find it easy to convey something on paper (or by phone) rather than talking in person when it is of a real serious matter concerning their relationship. It's like they don't want to be seen when they let loose all of that emotion.
And the whole Dr. Phil thing, I was using it as a sarcastic and vague example... no need to blow it out of proportion and get mad over it; I know the guy is full of crap.

Well, it's obviously you understand the situation from Shepard's point of view really well. Too bad Ashley doesn't have asari mind-meld capabilities or other loyalties that she has to consider. Ashley hasn't seen Shepard in two years. Last she heard, Shepard was DEAD. As in, not alive. Suddenly, after two years, after an attack by an unknown enemy, there is Shepard. Why, what an interesting coincidence. Not AT ALL suspicious. And this person claiming to be Shepard has just mentioned that she/he is there on Horizon under the auspices of Cerberus, a TERRORIST organization that Ashley and the real Shepard had tangled with before Sovereign attacked the Citadel. Why, what an ODD and SEEMINGLY CONTRADICTORY thing for this "Shepard" to be doing. And now this person, who may or may not be Shepard, wants me to abandon my Alliance career and everything else I've been doing over the last two years, just because she/he says so? And not to mention Shepard's own oddly uncaring attitude toward their own supposed 'resurrection', which has yet to be confirmed by Alliance intelligence. Yeah, you're right, Ashley was TOTALLY irrational. Except, you know, not.

And yeah, if you continue saying that women are irrational, unable to see 'reason' (in this case reason=Shepard's subjective viewpoint), then I will continue to call you misogynistic, because that's what your behavior IS.

[lolwut666]

Because fanboys can't like something without hating another.

The only character that has given me a reason to hate her is Miranda, but I still choose not to hate her 'cause I think hate is a waste of time and energy. I just ignore her.

[Siansonea]

Seboist wrote...

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

And yet, Kaidan did the exact same f*cking thing, so you can blame it on women as much as you can blame it on Mount Everest.

His implants are flaring up. There ya go.

Or he was taking estrogen treatments.

Haha, because women are irrational, teehee. All any of you are proving is that you are unable to see past the end of your nose. Mental myopia, so to speak.

Why, oh WHY doesn't BioWare somehow enforce a minimum age requirement to be a member in these forums?

[darknoon5]

[quote]ADLegend21 wrote...

[quote]darknoon5 wrote...

[quote]ADLegend21 wrote...

[quote]Clonedzero wrote...

no ones mentioned hating Wrex. you know why? because you can't hate Wrex. because Wrex is awesome. every other character was mentioned with a negative towards them.

[/quote]
I hated Wrex when he pulled a gun on me in ME1. I chose the option to beat him toa  pulp and shotgun him in the face. but when i saw how much of a douche in Brother was in ME1 I chose Wrex and his awesome "Shepard! my friend!" dialogue.
[/quote]You killed Wrex? Monster!


(ironic Ash is your prof pic)

[/quote]
haha yes it is. but I didn't take to kindly to him turning on me so *BAM* but yeah Wreav is a complete douche. Wrex is awesome as clan leader.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]