437 réponses à ce sujet

[TomY90]

I do think miranda and Jacob get poorly treated at times and I do agree with you they are really good characters especially miranda like you rightly noted she is about the only character who is an equal to shepherd and Jacob I think he issue was he was more plainer than the other characters in dialogue (apart from LI) .

i do not see much criticism of garrus though polls show he is the 2nd most popular character, the only time I have is with male shepherd conversations with him having barely any conversation at all and just saying calibrations.

With Tali I completely agree with you and the issue i tend to find of tali is no real progression of the LI its straight from just talking ME1 (no signs of romantic interest) to I want to be with you and risk my life just to be with you (does not suit her character that and no progression in my eyes)

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

TomY90 wrote...
With Tali I completely agree with you and the issue i tend to find of tali is no real progression of the LI its straight from just talking ME1 (no signs of romantic interest) to I want to be with you and risk my life just to be with you (does not suit her character that and no progression in my eyes)

This is literally every character. There is no believeable progression in any of the romances other than a switch being hit and them loving Shepard.

I dunno about that. Liara seems to be attracted to Shepard pretty much immediately. And Ashley seems to take a shine to him pretty quickly, but not after an unnaturally dry series of interactions. Kaidan actually has to be drawn out by Shepard, but once he gets the memo, he's into it. So I think the ME1 romances developed pretty naturally. The problem I think some people are having is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of 'spark' between Shepard and Tali or Garrus in ME1, but then in the second game there is. I personally don't have a problem with that, after all, we can't say we know everything there is to know about what's going with Tali or Garrus based solely on what they choose to tell Shepard in the first game. And maybe their interest in Shepard in ME2 IS a new thing. If so, that's okay too.

[hawat333]

Interesting thread filled with compelling thoughts, let me collaborate. Some may have come up, I've only read the opening post yet.
Jack: Easily one of the more polarizing characters out there. It's simple: She is a killing machine. Apparently she has no regrets, no remorse. It's hard to swallow it even knowing she has a past that distorted her this way. She is willing to kill anyone who gets in her way. But again, her past distorted her. This type of personality only works along the main character if we... basically if we get the paragon result of her loyalty mission. Only if the character shows to be willing to change.
But character development was cut short, and after one talk, if Shepard doesn't romance her, we get a simply "f..k off" as a response. Bad writing. Maybe not bad, but certainly limited by time restraints, or I don't know what.
Also Jack overacts her "my life is death, I hate everything" cover to the level of a comic book character - it's not subtle enough to be believable. Personally, I like this character very much by the way. Somehow she is out of place a bit.
Let's see my favourite charater in the trilogy (this far).
Ashley Williams: The problem with Ash is easy. You have to see, consider her perspective. You also have to comprehend that she is human.
Racism: For a proud and passionate woman, it's unbearable to swallow quietly the fact that her family's reputation was broken down. And why? Because an alien species decided that they should wipe out a colony and her grandfather rightfully defended it as long as he could. Than he was taken in irons. The rightful blame is on Earth politicians, but it's easier to lay the blame on something, someone from the outside. It's not racism, it's mistrust by distorted experiences invoked by a past event shaking the family's whole life. It's more about the unjust shame her beloved father had to take than about aliens. Is it right? Not one bit. But here is the bright spot: She is willing to reconsider. It's a slow process, but it's there. She is willing to see and change. ((Something that can't be said about ADLegend21 by the way, but the Opening Post described it very well. Although it can be remedied but characterizing her further in the third game.)) The mistrust is still there but it's the same mistrust she has against humans.
Wrex: Pretty easy situation. A superior (and possibly one she has feelings for) is at gunpoint by someone who (and the whole species by extension) is known to be enraged by being upset. Known to be willing to pull the trigger in these situations. Without regret and remorse. On top of that, the given superior is the only thing standing between galactic existence and galactic obliteration. The communication is apparently failing. I would pull the trigger. Twice. While Wrex is also on my top five list, it's a completely reasonable act.
Horizon: Someone shows up after believed dead. After two years of grief, tears, mourning. Someone shows up after this, without the tiniest note of his/her miracolous reborn (don't tell me there was no way to send at least a one line note to her), your beloved or close friend shows up and acts like everything is normal. And he is wearing the colors of a common enemy, one who did many acts that are simply untolerable. My reaction would be summed up the same way. "Thank god you're alive. Now stick that grenade up your as... behind." Why? Because it's the human thing to do in that situation.

That's the three hot topics about her as long as I know, and why all three is understandable, it usually comes up when someone doesn't actually pays attention to what is happening there. I can completely understand why some dislike her, but to hate her, it speaks of overlooking some very reasonable explanations.

[Mufasa92]

Too be honest, I hate mechs. They are the worst characters in the game and for some reason always want to kill you. I find them mean, dangerous, and not cool.



But seriously I don't like Jack. She's a pretender and claims you are the needy one when it's so obvious she's the one who needs help. Not only is she a ****, but also completely pathetic.

[lolwut666]

Mufasa92 wrote...

Too be honest, I hate mechs. They are the worst characters in the game and for some reason always want to kill you. I find them mean, dangerous, and not cool.



But seriously I don't like Jack. She's a pretender and claims you are the needy one when it's so obvious she's the one who needs help. Not only is she a ****, but also completely pathetic.

wat

How is she a pretender? And when does she accuse you of being needy?

And the only reason I can imagine for you to call her pathetic is your intense dislike for her.

[Antivenger]

lolwut666 wrote...

Mufasa92 wrote...

Too be honest, I hate mechs. They are the worst characters in the game and for some reason always want to kill you. I find them mean, dangerous, and not cool.



But seriously I don't like Jack. She's a pretender and claims you are the needy one when it's so obvious she's the one who needs help. Not only is she a ****, but also completely pathetic.

wat

How is she a pretender? And when does she accuse you of being needy?

And the only reason I can imagine for you to call her pathetic is your intense dislike for her.

I had a friend named Rafiqi, his english wasn't that good either. Hurr durr

I think he means that the tough girl persona is just a facade that Jack hides under. My guess is that it's who she really is, but hey, she cries if you romance her.

[lolwut666]

@Antivenger

Well, sorry if my english bothers you, but there isn't a lot I can do about it.

It's not my native language, and I'm self-taught.

[Mondo47]

Ok... I'll look at some of the characters I loved from moment one, and others didn't, and ones I didn't care for but came to in the end.

Wrex - I love Wrex  I think I fell in love the moment I saw his big wrinkly smooshed rhino-toad face. People do seem to point him out as a character who flies off the handle at nothing and is "potentially unstable." Well, maybe, if you judge him by human standards. Wrex comes from a culture that respects martial strength and the will to simply do, and the strongest leaders then are followed by others. He's also lived for several human lifespans as a part of this culture; hundreds of years as a warrior who has to do to survive. I mean, look at Tuchanka - the planet has an ecosystem that makes a trip though a park full of starving bears with bacon in your pockets look hospitable and a nice place for a family holiday, not to mention the air and water are so radioactive they're likely to kill you outright or make you sterile at best. That has to alter perspectives. Humans can end up mental wrecks after a few days of combat - imagine centuries of that, from birth to death pretty much.

The best way to deal with krogan is on their own level; to express a strong will and to do; if Shepard can demonstrate that to Wrex, the big guy is ultimately the most stable and stalwart member of the crew there. He won't flinch, he won't back down, and he'll fight to his last breath for you. Pulling a gun on Shep on Virmire... once again, think about the perspective on this; his species is dying, and the chance to stop it from happening is in his grasp, and then someone who barely knows a thing about this extinction process, who has never lived it, tells him it has to be destroyed. Seriously, put yourself in the same situation and tell me you wouldn't doubt Shepard at least a little. It's all about survival here, not just for one being, but a whole race - if Shepard is strong enough to convince Wrex though, he'll . At the end of the day, I'd rather have Wrex at my back than any other character, because he won't have a crisis of conscience or care about status or reward more than getting the job done.

Jack - I love Jack too. I think there are two camps of Jack-haters; those that just look at the exterior, and those that judge her by her behaviour and past actions. The former you can just put down to personal taste - if you don't like women that shave their heads, or have lots of tattoos, fine. It's purely a surface judgement though, and it has nothing to do with what's inside that woman. It's no more than that. Any attempt to make it into more than judging a book by its cover is doomed to failure.

Those that look at what's inside Jack often seem to trip up on the persona Jack projects. Jack has been through a nightmare of a life, that has taken in human experimentation, torture, slavery, sexual violence, and circulation in the criminal fraternity. Jack though has a gift for making all the bones in the bodies of people that mess with her shatter like glass. She has an almighty power which usually has all the finesse of a runaway train. Considering where she has been and what she has seen, her reactions are, while still unsavory, understandable. She's had to kill to survive, and she has seen that the weak are preyed upon by the strong. She has not been parented, she has had no real role models that have not proved to be morally corrupt in one manner or another. Everyone that has come along has used her and discarded her afterwards. So she sees the universe in simple terms; the weak are used by the strong, so it's better to be one of the strong. To expect any great moral soul-searching from someone that has clawed their way out of the sewers is unrealistic; if this was the case, you wouldn't end up with higher crime rates in impoverished areas, or high rates of recidivism among prison populations - everyone would have these shiny little epiphanies about how we were doing things wrong and would all get on the straight and narrow. We don't though. Human nature for you. While it doesn't excuse her actions, it does make them understandable. The world, however, is not black and white.

So Jack is violent and aggressive and an unrepentant criminal. And she brags about it. If you don't want someone to f*ck with you, you make sure they know how dangerous you are. So, Jack pushes out a front; she presents herself as a deadly criminal in order to be left alone, because chances are she doesn't want to be at the bottom of the pecking order. Also, we have no clear outline of how many of Jack's crimes even took place - she may well be embellishing the truth in order to bolster the facade for the benefit of others. All we know is Cerberus pays to have her dragged back into a prison whenever she escapes. While I'm positive she's no angel, we cannot be sure how much of a potential criminal record is fact and how much is fiction. Judging her on what she says is being a little short sighted - though it does show that people will buy into her projected persona... so it does work

Miranda - I really didn't care for her to start with. She was arrogant, aloof and outright snotty 80% of the time. She never stops bemoaning her genetic perfection like some whining vampire in some fop-goth movie being all woe-is-me about never seeing a sunrise again. She burbles Cerberus apologies every five minutes - oh, we tried blowing up a ship on the quarian flotilla, but we had our reasons. Yeah... I'm sure everyone that has blown up a school bus or office building had their "reasons" too <_< I think this really hits its nadir when she tries to sidestep responsibility for the Teltin project when Jack confronts her about it. By her own admission, if she is working on a project, she asks for her resources and gets them from Cerberus. To argue that it wasn't really Cerberus because the project had crossed some hazy line of management culpability is frankly pathetic. The money came from somewhere, the facilities came from somewhere, and someone had to be looking at the receipts if Cerberus has any kind of management... and if we want any more evidence, look at the Teltin logs... "When he sees results, the Illusive Man won't care what we've done."

The thing is, I started to see a lot more to Miranda than the catsuit. She's essentially being loyal to the only family she's had for years (the appalling job done by her biofather excepted); she probably doesn't want to believe that they're capable of some of the things they've done. If she's told something was stopped as soon as a point was reached, she has no reason to disbelieve it. She isn't amoral, but she doesn't want to see the worst in her family. And who doesn't? And she does have her reasons, too - it's for humanity. Not for her, not for Cerberus, but for every human. To her, it's laudable. She has faith it's being done for the right reasons. when she sees what TIM is really capable of though, she turns her back on him. Not because of the influence of the almighty Shepard, but because she has a moral compass of her own.

Another thing that made me like her was the Shadowbroker dossier on her. I know it seriously polarised some fans, but to know that Miranda has needs like any other woman that can't be fulfilled by her work made me empathise with her a lot more. So she uses an online introduction agency to screen potential partners without the hassle of dating; wasting time or taking time away from work when she just has an itch to scratch... that's human. That I can relate to! Anyone that has ever thought f*ck it, I may as well go home with him has done the same thing. It's not terribly amoral, it's human nature once again. That and her research into having children (pehaps even having tried and failed without prior knowledge of her infertility) gave me something I could like at last, and even find sympathy for. For all her perfection, Miranda is still very much an ordinary woman under it all.

[termokanden]

Perhaps it's because you wrote "wat". The comment doesn't make sense otherwise as there's nothing wrong with your English.

I knew a guy who called himself Venger once. But this is Antivenger. Interesting. Actually it's clearly a coincidence. I'll stop writing now.

[Antivenger]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Antivenger

Well, sorry if my english bothers you, but there isn't a lot I can do about it.

It's not my native language, and I'm self-taught.

I actually meant the Mufasa guy. Mufasa? Rafiqi?

I'll stop writing now.

Modifié par Antivenger, 02 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[Pwener2313]

Tali - No explanation necessary.

[Mufasa92]

There is no spellcheck when I use the standard from of posting so that probably made my post hard to understand, sorry.

As for when she calls you needy, it happens in one of the conversations that initiate romance (I think Sheppard replies with a sarcastic "right"). Honestly that whole emotional defense mechanism bothers me a lot. It's not "who she is" it's a defense for the tough environment she was brought up in. I guess I kinda found it degrading that she tries to go about Sheppard like any other guy even though she first hand sees how he's not ordinary. That might actually be the reason she acts so defensively and tries to project her own issues on him, the fact that he's no ordinary guy.

Also what I feel towards the character is FAR from intense dislike (as stated before I really hate mechs more). I just don't like character traits she posses, but for what those traits are I think she was fantastically written.

[Xeranx]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Jack: she has a personality that puts a lot of people off, makes a very bad first impression and for some they'll never get over that. She just makes herself hard to like, so it basically comes down to the player's willingness to peel off the layers and really get to know her, and then whether or not they are into the high-maintenance types. Some players probably are flat-out not man enough to handle her =P

I don't like Jack because she's a huge cliche.  From the first video they showed of her I knew how her story would play out.  I didn't know specifics, but I knew that she'd be fixed somehow close to the end of the game.  I watched her romance play out before I actually went through with it so I'd know whether to avoid it or not, but everything happened as I knew it would.  In most media, having a girl/woman that swears as much as she does, dresses contrary to what people consider normal screams "she needs a shrink".

[Quole]

Eiliestl wrote...

I get why Tali's hated . But not Miranda,Garrus and Jacob. Some people are morons .

Whats interesting is; I get why Miranda and Jacob are hated but not Tali and Garrus. Some people are idiots.

Actually, everyone is an idiot. God I hate people. In fact why do I still talk to all of you?
btw, the OP of this thread is INCREDIBLY idiotic.

Modifié par Quole, 02 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[Nodscouter]

[quote]Eiliestl wrote...

I get why Tali's hated . But not Miranda,Garrus and Jacob. Some people are morons .[/quote]
[/quote]
Right, because people not sharing your exact opinion? Obviously complete idiots who don't deserve to exist.
[quote]Xeranx wrote...

[quote]Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Jack: she has a personality that puts a lot of people off, makes a very bad first impression and for some they'll never get over that. She just makes herself hard to like, so it basically comes down to the player's willingness to peel off the layers and really get to know her, and then whether or not they are into the high-maintenance types. Some players probably are flat-out not man enough to handle her =P
[/quote]

I don't like Jack because she's a huge cliche.  From the first video they showed of her I knew how her story would play out.  I didn't know specifics, but I knew that she'd be fixed somehow close to the end of the game.  I watched her romance play out before I actually went through with it so I'd know whether to avoid it or not, but everything happened as I knew it would.  In most media, having a girl/woman that swears as much as she does, dresses contrary to what people consider normal screams "she needs a shrink".

[/quote]
As much as that is true, you can say that about every goddamn character. There is not a single character in a single game, film or book that can't be defined as a cliché. It's not because the writers are lazy or bad, but because we've found a cliché for everything.
A few examples:
Garrus: classic Vigilante.
Zaeed & Wrex: Old Bitter Mercenary.
Miranda: Femme fatale
Thane: Religious assasin.
And so on...

Modifié par Nodscouter, 02 mai 2011 - 05:46 .

[Nodscouter]

Edit: This forum would really benefit from a ''delete post'' button.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 02 mai 2011 - 05:46 .

[Antivenger]

Quole wrote...
Actually, everyone is an idiot.

This is fact, unfortunely. Though some more than others.

I just finished replaying Virmire and... doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Tali doesn't seem fazed by what happened there? The VS is torn up about leaving a squad member, Wrex is RAGE at Saren for the cloning and indoctrination of his species and Garrus is worried they will fail. Tali.... "Hey Commander. Need something?"

[Nodscouter]

Garrus is worried they will fail anyway. Doesn't have anything to do with Virmire, it's just another conversation you can have after any mission. I got it way before Virmire.

[lolwut666]

"Commander, I wanted to thank you..."

[PMC65]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I also have enough points to Paragon out of that situation, but I resent that they make me do it. In real life, I would have preferred to support Jack openly, because she needs support. Then, when I go to talk to Miranda about it, I shouldn't have to kiss her butt... I should just be able to say "can't you see we need to help Jack?" and have her agree. Miranda should be stronger, is all I'm saying.

And Jack's line is "the Cheerleader won't admit that what Cerberus did to me was wrong."
"It wasn't Cerberus, not really... but clearly you were a mistake."

Ugh, that line... it's so condescending and backhanded. Maybe it's the writers' fault, but there are so many much more mature ways Miranda could have handled it. She was egging Jack on, though, and that's just not cool. She can have whatever "feelings" about Jack she wants to have, but if she expects me to trust her as an XO, she has to learn humility and diplomacy.

I don't actually hate Miranda and I'm not trying to flame, but that one confrontation moved her to the bottom of my rankings. I don't dislike anyone on my crew, I just like Miranda the least.

I hated that fight as well and felt that you should have only been able to side with either Miranda or Jack. If you sided with Jack, then you could go back and work things out with Miranda (after she cooled down). If you sided with Jack? Good luck ever talking to her again.

The way that I looked at the fight itself was Shepard is walking into the tail end. Since it is in Miranda's cabin I think I can safely assume that Jack went there looking for a fight. There was probably some heavy button pushing to lead to chairs being thrown, etc ... and when I heard Miranda say that awful line? ... I have said worse in a fit of anger. Not proud of it, but can't deny that anger can make people say stupid & hurtful things.

Both were wrong in that moment ...

[Clonedzero]

is it wrong that i was fairly neutral and didnt care about tali, but after seeing all the crazy tali fans and all they post about her, i now hate her alot?