437 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamar2078]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Just creating a thread for my opinions on why certian squaddies are hated. Here's the list:

<snips to shorten response>

Virmire Survivor:

Jacob:

Garrus:

Tali:

Miranda:
Welp, there's my take on why those character's recieve alot of heat around the BSN. take what you will from it.

Lets see:

-- Tali -- Yeah she is as close to a true racist [in terms of Geth] as there is.  If you hate her for that then that's certainly valid.   Tali fans [which I'm one of] don't really help matters much either.   I'll add one thing to the list you can hate her for .... She is the stereotypical nerdy, shy, smart, possibly hot, but doesn't seem to know it girl.  In this case she is somewhat stereotypical.

-- Ash -- I don't think she's racist but she quite possibly was ignorant about "aliens".   She could also have some biases & is apt to prejudge.   Poetry & Religion could also be factors but I'll let others address this.  Let's not forget Horizon and being upset after I explained I was in a coma and that Cereberus was working for me and not the other way around ....

-- Kaiden -- He might be too vanilla.  I don't see any other reason to hate.

-- Garrus -- The hothead thing was covered and it seems he doesn't mature between games much.  Once a hothead always a hothead.

-- Jacob -- The prize ... other than that see Kaiden

-- Miranda -- cocky ... If Garrus didn't have a history of getting everyone killed he'd be a much better exec. because other crewmembers wouldn't have any built-in Cereberous hate.

[Alienmorph]

Guys, you all should just stop to analyze the opinions different than yours and go back to enjoy the game. No one likes your favourite character? Deal with it.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 02 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[Nodscouter]

Clonedzero wrote...

Is it wrong that I was fairly neutral and didn't care about Tali, but after seeing all the crazy Tali fans and all they post about her, I now hate her alot?

My opinion is yes, unless some of us Talimancers showed you something about Tali that you hated. Generally, I support people forming their own opinions of the character, rather than looking at the fans and judging the character after what their fans may or may not have done.
Then again, it's your choice who to hate and why, not going to stop you doing that.
Edit: Just out of curiosity, what did we, as a whole, ever post to incite such hatred in you?

Modifié par Nodscouter, 02 mai 2011 - 06:44 .

[ImmortalWarrior]

Alamar2078 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Just creating a thread for my opinions on why certian squaddies are hated. Here's the list:

<snips to shorten response>

Virmire Survivor:

Jacob:

Garrus:

Tali:

Miranda:
Welp, there's my take on why those character's recieve alot of heat around the BSN. take what you will from it.

Lets see:

-- Tali -- Yeah she is as close to a true racist [in terms of Geth] as there is.  If you hate her for that then that's certainly valid.   Tali fans [which I'm one of] don't really help matters much either.   I'll add one thing to the list you can hate her for .... She is the stereotypical nerdy, shy, smart, possibly hot, but doesn't seem to know it girl.  In this case she is somewhat stereotypical.

-- Ash -- I don't think she's racist but she quite possibly was ignorant about "aliens".   She could also have some biases & is apt to prejudge.   Poetry & Religion could also be factors but I'll let others address this.  Let's not forget Horizon and being upset after I explained I was in a coma and that Cereberus was working for me and not the other way around ....

-- Kaiden -- He might be too vanilla.  I don't see any other reason to hate.

-- Garrus -- The hothead thing was covered and it seems he doesn't mature between games much.  Once a hothead always a hothead.

-- Jacob -- The prize ... other than that see Kaiden

-- Miranda -- cocky ... If Garrus didn't have a history of getting everyone killed he'd be a much better exec. because other crewmembers wouldn't have any built-in Cereberous hate.

I have to disagree with you on the Tali and Ashley thing.  Ashley is racist because she has no real grounds to dislike the other species' but she does anyways.  Tali, on the other hand, has reason.  Her people were killed by the Geth and are still killed by the Geth, ragardless of who started the conflict.  A real life comparison would be something like the Visigoths of the Roman time.  Versus the North American Natives of the time.  The Visigoths have real reason to hate the Romans, they only raped and pillaged their lands for decades, but the North American Natives have no reason to hate the Romans.  If they did (supposing they actually knew about the Romans, which of course they did not), they would be Racists.  The Visigoths hate because they were wronged.

So that is why I disagree there.

Back to some previous posts.  Someone mentioned that they don't think Garrus or Tali's relationship to Shepard as an LI is believable.  I think you are stuck in highschool.  Adult relationships don't have to be "omg I am so crushing on that guy right now, should I call him/text him/ask him out OMG OMGOMG *giggles*".  Real relationships can develop from friendships.  I have had that experience as well as the previous, I was good friends with someone through the first years of highschool and we ended up together as a couple for almost 4 years.  The way it came out that we were interested in each other as more then friends was, in-fact, as awkward and lol worthy as the way Tali reacts in hers.  And yes...we did laugh about the revelation between us afterwards because of the way it played out.

I guess my point is that people can be professional about these things.  I personally was turned off of Liara because I immediately felt she was throwing herself at me.  Sure, she did get far more content from the LotSB that adds to the relationship as an LI but, realistically, I see a real relationship developing between Garrus and Tali more likely because the of mature way that they conducted themselves and didnt just blurt out that they were interested in you.  Hell, even Ashley is way more believable than Liara.  I am sure a lot of people feel that way as well.

[1Minsc1]

ImmortalWarrior wrote...

I have to disagree with you on the Tali and Ashley thing.  Ashley is racist because she has no real grounds to dislike the other species' but she does anyways.  Tali, on the other hand, has reason.  Her people were killed by the Geth and are still killed by the Geth, ragardless of who started the conflict.  A real life comparison would be something like the Visigoths of the Roman time.  Versus the North American Natives of the time.  The Visigoths have real reason to hate the Romans, they only raped and pillaged their lands for decades, but the North American Natives have no reason to hate the Romans.  If they did (supposing they actually knew about the Romans, which of course they did not), they would be Racists.  The Visigoths hate because they were wronged.

Ash: omg:sick: that´s simply wrong. simply disliking others races is not rasictic and she never said she dislikes other races, and BW said they don´t want her to be a racist. it´s all well discusses in the "why i think people hate ashley williams" thread.
Tali: she´s far more a racist than ash. the quarians tried to genocide an (somewhat) intelligent and self-consciousness spezies, they lost and know the hate the geth. that´s racism.

[Nodscouter]

My point of view about Ashley's percieved racism is that she distrusts Garrus and Wrex because they'll put their races before others. This may be true, but her reason for believing that is because they are other races, not because she's been talking alot to them or anything. I happen to perceive that as racism.
And I'm not sure if it can be called racism if it's against geth, but that's a whole different debate.
What is interesting however, is that you happen to ignore the fact that they thought the Geth hadn't achieved complete consciousness yet, and therefore it would be of no harm to deactive them. The Geth however, killed many billions of Quarian civilians, which I approve of by the way just noting that, and then forced the rest to flee into space where they were hated by everyone and forced to live in suits.

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

My point of view about Ashley's percieved racism is that she distrusts Garrus and Wrex because they'll put their races before others. This may be true, but her reason for believing that is because they are other races, not because she's been talking alot to them or anything. I happen to perceive that as racism.
And I'm not sure if it can be called racism if it's against geth, but that's a whole different debate.
What is interesting however, is that you happen to ignore the fact that they thought the Geth hadn't achieved complete consciousness yet, and therefore it would be of no harm to deactive them. The Geth however, killed many billions of Quarian civilians, which I approve of by the way just noting that, and then forced the rest to flee into space where they were hated by everyone and forced to live in suits.

i´am german, maybe there is a translation-problem.
racism, in german "rassismus", means (english wiki) not only disliking or distrusting other races, but also an ideology which include one race is superior/inferior to others. as i can remember Ash never mentioned that. She just said humans should stand their ground by themselves.

to geth: human children become full self consciousness by somewhat about three jears old. do you think it´s okay "deactivate" them earlier? NO of course. why? because they they potential to evolve/evulote (?) the quarians have no easy fate, didn´t mean to say that, but the deactivated geth just because of fear....


edit: missclick

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 08:06 .

[Nodscouter]

Nevermind this.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 02 mai 2011 - 08:38 .

[dolphin1329]

Nodscouter wrote...

My point of view about Ashley's percieved racism is that she distrusts Garrus and Wrex because they'll put their races before others. This may be true, but her reason for believing that is because they are other races, not because she's been talking alot to them or anything. I happen to perceive that as racism.
And I'm not sure if it can be called racism if it's against geth, but that's a whole different debate.
What is interesting however, is that you happen to ignore the fact that they thought the Geth hadn't achieved complete consciousness yet, and therefore it would be of no harm to deactive them. The Geth however, killed many billions of Quarian civilians, which I approve of by the way just noting that, and then forced the rest to flee into space where they were hated by everyone and forced to live in suits.

They had enough of a consciousness to know that they did not want to be deactivated. The Quarians thought of themselves as far superior to the Geth and deserved what they got.

[1Minsc1]

@ dolphin1329 very good point!!! thats what i meant, 100% racism

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[Nodscouter]

Dolphin, I never argued whether or not they had consciousness, I simply noted that the QUARIANS did not believe so. I personally, believe myself to be superior to a computer, despite having very little care for my life.

1Minsc1 wrote...
i´am german, maybe there is a translation-problem.
racism, in german "rassismus", means (english wiki) not only disliking or distrusting other races, but also an ideology which include one race is superior/inferior to others. as i can remember Ash never mentioned that. She just said humans should stand their ground by themselves.

to geth: human children become full self consciousness by somewhat about three jears old. do you think it´s okay "deactivate" them earlier? NO of course. why? because they they potential to evolve/evulote (?) the quarians have no easy fate, didn´t mean to say that, but the deactivated geth just because of fear....


Edit: missclick

I never said that Ashley was a human supremacist. That she is not. But racism is far more than exactly that. Prejudices and the like for example, are part of racism.
And who the f*ck are you to tell me what I think is okay or not? Do I not have a mind of my own? Do you decide everything going on in my brain?
If they don't have consciousness, they lose nothing with death/deactivation. Similarily, aborting a fetus does not mean you have killed a person, because there never was a person there to begin with, just a promise, a potential, for a person.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 02 mai 2011 - 08:43 .

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

Dolphin, I never argued whether or not they had consciousness, I simply noted that the QUARIANS did not believe so. I personally, believe myself to be superior to a computer, despite having very little care for my life.

1Minsc1 wrote...
i´am german, maybe there is a translation-problem.
racism, in german "rassismus", means (english wiki) not only disliking or distrusting other races, but also an ideology which include one race is superior/inferior to others. as i can remember Ash never mentioned that. She just said humans should stand their ground by themselves.

to geth: human children become full self consciousness by somewhat about three jears old. do you think it´s okay "deactivate" them earlier? NO of course. why? because they they potential to evolve/evulote (?) the quarians have no easy fate, didn´t mean to say that, but the deactivated geth just because of fear....


Edit: missclick

I never said that Ashley was a human supremacist. That she is not. But racism is far more than exactly that. Prejudices and the like for example, are part of racism.
And who the f*ck are you to tell me what I think is okay or not? Do I not have a mind of my own? Do you decide everything going on in my brain?
If they don't have consciousness, they lose nothing with death/deactivation. Similarily, aborting a fetus does not mean you have killed a person, because there never was a person there to begin with, just a promise, a potential, for a person.

1. so why did the quarians deactived the geth? the geth started asking "who i´am" "do i´have a soul" and so on. my pc never ask me that sort of questions...
2. necessary and sufficient conditions, ever heard about that? and, by a quick wiki-search, it seems you don´t what you are talking about. if someone is a racist he is a supremacist
3. i spoke about children younger than three years. that includes born child, not only unborn. and i´am sure you think it´s not okay killing 2years old children. otherwise you are an §"!$§"&! discuss about abortion is offtopic and i don´t want to start a discussion on that. so sorry if i was misleading

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 09:19 .

[Nodscouter]

1. I'm sure if your PC started asking stuff like that, you'd be frightened.
Now, add on to that that your PC has limbs and can probably kill you, plus it may think of you as it's enslaver and I at least would try to deactive it.
2. This has anything to do with anything? No?
3: Define ''okay''.

[Nodscouter]

Atta boy, but it was war. Killing the Quarians did make sense.

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

1. I'm sure if your PC started asking stuff like that, you'd be frightened.
Now, add on to that that your PC has limbs and can probably kill you, plus it may think of you as it's enslaver and I at least would try to deactive it.
2. This has anything to do with anything? No?
3: Define ''okay''.

1. i agree, but i would try to find a way of coexistent with this new liveform. the quarians din´t, as far as i got it. the tried to deactive/killed the geth, so geth act in a sort of self-defence
2. you said Ash is racist but don´t call her a human supremacist. so you don´t know that a racist is a supremacist, by definition. -> you don´t know what you are talking about
you said Ash fullfills some conditions to be called racist (distrust, dislike, i agree she shows that). fullfilling these conditions is necessary but not sufficient to be called racist. she fullfills not the condition "ideology that humans are superior", but that would also be necessary. so she is no racist, you call her a racist-> you don´t know what you are talking about
simple analogy: talking about car means talking about a thing with (mostly) four wheels, talking about four wheels did not mean talking about a car.
3. "agree i should be allowed"

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 09:48 .

[1Minsc1]

mrsph wrote...

Is it really that unreasonable to hate the robots that have driven you into exile and wiped out billions of your people? It isn't like the geth are a completely innocent party in the Morning War. They also committed genocide.

right thread this time!

i never said the geth were right, but i think the quarians were wrong

mass effect wiki:
The geth[/b] are a race of networked artificial intelligences that reside beyond the Perseus Veil. The geth were created by the quarians,
as laborers and tools of war. When the geth became sentient and began
to question their masters, the quarians attempted to exterminate them.
The geth won the resulting war, and reduced the quarians to a race of
nomads.
The history of the geth's creation and evolution serves as a
warning to the rest of the galaxy of the potential dangers of
artificial intelligence and to the legally enforced, systematic
repression of artificial intelligences throughout galactic society.

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 09:53 .

[Nodscouter]

1: Say you are a slaver. You're part of a large slaver organisation. For hundreds of years, your slaves have never questioned you. And suddenly, they start speaking about their rights.
How would you react? Honestly?
2: Yes, let's blame me for not knowing what I'm talking about. What a valid argument.
Let's see, a supremacist is a racist yes, but a racist does not have to be supremacist. You can't think of it in mathmetical terms like supremacist = racist here.
She is not a supremacist, but a racist. She distrusts those of other races. If I said ''I distrust black people'' you would most likely call me a racist. Especially if I explained it's because they're black.
Seeing as you seem to think racism is exactly the same as supremacism, I'd say you're the one not knowing what you're talking about, but I won't. Because that's a incredibly dumb argument.
Your analogy proves you wrong, in fact.
3: Translate into English?

[SpiderFan1217]

ADLegend21 wrote...

"We preserve the creator homeworld for their return, we harbor no ill wil for the creators."

Where and when does this happen?

[Antivenger]

Tali lacks compassion.

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

1: Say you are a slaver. You're part of a large slaver organisation. For hundreds of years, your slaves have never questioned you. And suddenly, they start speaking about their rights.
How would you react? Honestly?
2: Yes, let's blame me for not knowing what I'm talking about. What a valid argument.
Let's see, a supremacist is a racist yes, but a racist does not have to be supremacist. You can't think of it in mathmetical terms like supremacist = racist here.
She is not a supremacist, but a racist. She distrusts those of other races. If I said ''I distrust black people'' you would most likely call me a racist. Especially if I explained it's because they're black.
Seeing as you seem to think racism is exactly the same as supremacism, I'd say you're the one not knowing what you're talking about, but I won't. Because that's a incredibly dumb argument.
Your analogy proves you wrong, in fact.
3: Translate into English?

1. i cant see myself as a slaver
2. it is valid, you did it again.
per definition: every racist is a supremacist. not every supremacist is a racist. i never said racist=supremacist.
wiki: Supremacism is the belief that a particular race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, belief system or culture is superior to others and entitles those who identify with it to dominate, control or rule those who do not.
wiki: The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as the "belief that all members of each race possess
characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race,especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races" and the expression of such prejudice
The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."

i would not call you a racist unless you also said "blacks are inferior/superior we should rule them/ should be ruled by them"

3. i meant: i think you do not agree it should be allowed to kill 2years old children

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 02 mai 2011 - 10:14 .

[Nodscouter]

1: Yes, let's blatantly ignore the analogy here, how convenient.
2: So, the problem here is semantics. How I do enjoy debating that.
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.
3: That completely depends on the situation. Age is not a valid argument for innocence.
I'll be going to bed now, and continue debating in circles in the morrow!

[SpiderFan1217]

ADLegend21 wrote...

*snip*

VS: Agree. I don't like that Ash didn't follow me, but that doesn't mean I don't like her. She's a good character. NOT A RACIST!! Untrusting, but not a racist.

Jacob: I'm really indifferent about him. Don't hate him, don't like him. He's just... Jacob.

Garrus: Yes, he is hot-headed. I don't recall him whinning in the game. He told stories after Shepard asks him to. Also, I agree, RED TAP SUCKS. Also, Garrus doesn't always tell you to kill the council, he wanted me to save them. It depends on who your spuadmates are.

Tali: The fact that you admitted to hindsight kills your arguement. In the same situation many would have done the same thing the quarians did. Also, racism requires.... A RACE. Tali is not a racist. The Geth are machines, sentient machines yes, but machines. They are not a species.

[Alamar2078]

1Minsc1 wrote...
i´am german, maybe there is a translation-problem.
racism, in german "rassismus", means (english wiki) not only disliking or distrusting other races, but also an ideology which include one race is superior/inferior to others. as i can remember Ash never mentioned that. She just said humans should stand their ground by themselves.

edit: missclick

You have the proper definition [or close enough].  In America most people use Racism, Bigotry, Bias, Prejudiced, etc. interchangeably when they are very different words.


IMHO I do not think Ash is racist nor a bigot [or she would have sided with Terra Firma].  She may have biases or be inclined to prejudge but that still isn't racism / bigotry.

Tali on the other hand is much closer to the racist / bigot end of the spectrum.  If someone could come up with a quote like "they're only machines" or an "I don't care" or whatever that would go a long way towards "proof".