437 réponses à ce sujet

[ADLegend21]

Alienmorph wrote...

Guys, you all should just stop to analyze the opinions different than yours and go back to enjoy the game. No one likes your favourite character? Deal with it.

[1Minsc1]

Nodscouter wrote...

1: Yes, let's blatantly ignore the analogy here, how convenient.
2: So, the problem here is semantics. How I do enjoy debating that.
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.
3: That completely depends on the situation. Age is not a valid argument for innocence.
I'll be going to bed now, and continue debating in circles in the morrow!

2. i disagree, Ash too
3. i disagree, again. wiki:
Innocence is a term used to indicate a general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing. In a legal context, innocence refers to the lack of legal guilt of an individual, with respect to a crime.
Guilt is the fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense[1]. It is also a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.[2] It is closely related to the concept of remorse.

i dont think a 2years old child, which is not fully self-consciousness, can be guilty in any way

[Made Nightwing]

Ashley has no reason to dislike aliens? Are you ****ing kidding me? Her grandfather's command was suddenly and viciously attacked for no apparent reason by an unknown alien force. He and his garrisson fought long and hard, never giving up. Then, when he couldn't hold out any longer, when his men were starving to death instead of fighting, he made the choice to surrender. For that, her entire family has been blacklisted, her grandfather publicly ridiculed, her father spent all of his career as a private, and she's been stuck on **** details all her own career.

She has plenty of ****ing reason to dislike aliens.

[Alamar2078]

Nodscouter wrote...
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.

If you distrust other races that means that you likely have biases or are apt to prejudge the other race.  If you take that up a notch and hate everything there is about a race totally & completely this likely makes you a bigot.   If you believe that your race is superior to another race then that makes you a racist.

Edit:    "A dictionary is a terrible thing to waste".

Modifié par Alamar2078, 02 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[Made Nightwing]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

1: Yes, let's blatantly ignore the analogy here, how convenient.
2: So, the problem here is semantics. How I do enjoy debating that.
Anyone who distrusts other races are a racist, they may not outright say that they think their race is superior, but it certainly implies that.
3: That completely depends on the situation. Age is not a valid argument for innocence.
I'll be going to bed now, and continue debating in circles in the morrow!

2. i disagree, Ash too
3. i disagree, again. wiki:
Innocence is a term used to indicate a general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing. In a legal context, innocence refers to the lack of legal guilt of an individual, with respect to a crime.
Guilt is the fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense[1]. It is also a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.[2] It is closely related to the concept of remorse.

i dont think a 2years old child, which is not fully self-consciousness, can be guilty in any way

Here here. Mind you, with all the boogeyman stories of Rampant AI's, it's not surprising that the quarian's reacted violently. But I think they should have tried to establish a rapport with their creations before destroying them.

[Alamar2078]

I will cut the Quarians slack IFF [if and only if] all other AIs in history have immediately & violently turned against their creators. ME1 may not have said this directly but [IMHO] the game wanted to give you the impression that is invariably where AI research would lead.

On the other hand if a toaster becomes sentient and you go to war with the toasters then you need to deal with the [virtual] blood on your hands.

Edit:  I feel that I should restate that I'm a Tali fan.  That doesn't make me blind to what Tali has said & done over the last couple of games.  BTW:  I do feel that she was raised in an environment where the idea of dealing with the Geth as equals was a totally foreign idea.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 02 mai 2011 - 10:41 .

[Siansonea]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

*snip*

*snip*
Tali: The fact that you admitted to hindsight kills your arguement. In the same situation many would have done the same thing the quarians did. Also, racism requires.... A RACE. Tali is not a racist. The Geth are machines, sentient machines yes, but machines. They are not a species.

Well, what a convenient loophole. Because the geth's sentience model is very different from organic life's various sentience models, it doesn't "count" as a race, species, what-have-you. History tells us that this is an all too common pretext used to subjugate and exterminate groups of living, thinking beings. And regardless of what you believe about the geth, it is an undeniable fact that within the ME universe, they are living, thinking beings. They're just not carbon-based life, like humans.

One could just as easily argue that turians and quarians aren't really beings worthy of consideration because they're dextro-amino acid lifeforms rather than levo-amino acid lifeforms. I mean, they're not really people are they? They can't even eat the same food as "us"!

Where DO you draw the line of who gets to be considered "people"?

[Alamar2078]

Hmm this thread is going downhill fast .... maybe it's "lock time"???

Edit:  No I'm not targeting any one person or post.  I just don't see this thread heading anywhere meaningful

Modifié par Alamar2078, 02 mai 2011 - 10:43 .

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Legion says not to judge him by the standards of an organic race.

because benign anthropomorphism is racist. :/

I agree with Legion. We shouldn't judge them by the standards of an organic race, because they are fundamentally dissimilar from organic races. Just as turian and quarian physiology is fundamentally dissimilar to human and asari physiology. But the geth shouldn't be exterminated simply because they are so different from organics. Allowing them the courtesy—nay, the right—to not be utterly destroyed by quarian zealots is not the same as benign anthropomorphism.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

And I never said the geth should be exterminated.

But I don't blame the quarian's reactions to the geth.

Care to elaborate?

The way I see it, the quarians started the Morning War. The geth defended themselves against aggression, prevailed somehow, and drove the quarians from their homeworld, but they did NOT seek total extermination of the quarians, they left the Migrant Fleet in peace, and retired behind the Perseus Veil for 300 years. Unbenknownst to the geth, a group of them had been indoctrinated by the Reaper Nazara, and those indoctrinated Heretics left geth space and attacked Eden Prime, Feros, a few other sites on other worlds like Therum and Virmire, and ultimately attacked the Citadel, all the while led by a partially indoctrinated TURIAN. Not once did anyone even consider the possibility that there might be multiple factions of geth, and that some might not desire conflict with organic sentient races, but would rather have peace with them. Now granted, the True Geth could have done a better job advertising that fact, but it is patently obvious that the quarians don't really have much 'moral high ground' to stand on where the geth are concerned. Are their 'feelings' toward the geth understandable? I suppose so, in some ways. But that doesn't mean that their actions in the Morning War and since haven't been marked by extreme prejudice and unfair treatment of the geth. Unless, of course, you don't accept that geth are really "people", I mean. And I mean the term people in the most non-anthropomorphic way possible, of course.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 02 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Clonedzero]

Nodscouter wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Is it wrong that I was fairly neutral and didn't care about Tali, but after seeing all the crazy Tali fans and all they post about her, I now hate her alot?

My opinion is yes, unless some of us Talimancers showed you something about Tali that you hated. Generally, I support people forming their own opinions of the character, rather than looking at the fans and judging the character after what their fans may or may not have done.
Then again, it's your choice who to hate and why, not going to stop you doing that.
Edit: Just out of curiosity, what did we, as a whole, ever post to incite such hatred in you?

well they seem to give her WAY too much credit. i basically ignored her for the most part but then inspired by how much love tali fans have i talked to her alot more and paid attention to her story archs.

i discovered she's the most illogical character in the game. she's barely an adult. has no combat training. has absolutely no reason to join shepards crew other than "i gave you geth data can i tag along? teehee!". is a member of a species that has no notable immune system and a minor suit rupture can be fatal. a compelte liability on the field. not to mention NO COMBAT TRAINING.

her character makes no sense in the context with the story.her being a non-combat member of the crew would have been acceptable, but her being a squadmate for combat purposes MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

not to mention how in ME1 all she did was spew out facts about quarians and geth. a glorified codex page and then suddenly in ME2 she's a super naive cute nerd girl? wtf? its like her character got dumber and more immature as she got older and more responsibilities. makes absolutely NO sense.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

The geth knew about the heretics. And the heretics weren't indoctrinated because that doesn't work on synthetic organisms. As Legion says, "the heretics chose their own path"

Not to mention how Legion's geth shoot down any organic ship that enters their space with no warning.

And to explain the quarian's actions during the Morning War: They were scared ****less. A machine that is not supposed to ever gain self awareness had, well, gained self awareness. They freaked. I'm not saying what they did was right (in my opinion, both sides went too far) but it is totally understandable to try and shut down a huge risk to the galaxy at large.

And why would anyone consider the possibility of there being multiple geth factions? The geth never communicate with anyone.

Nazara introduced a subtle change in the Heretic Geth runtimes, to cause them to conclude that Nazara's logic was correct. The infamous "math error" that Legion's virus sought to eradicate on Heretic Station. Maybe it differs in mechanism to the indoctrination of organic species, but the end result is the same: a race unknowingly reduced to serving the Reapers against their will, indeed subverting every aspect of free will. Maybe you don't call it indoctrination, but I see very little difference.

[Siansonea]

Please, let's not let this thread devolve into a Tali-bashing thread. That's not it's purpose.

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Please, let's not let this thread devolve into a Tali-bashing thread. That's not it's purpose.

i was responding to someones reply oh glorious fake mod.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Sovereign had nothing to do with the original schism other than offering them true unity, which is what the geth want more than anything else.

The virus in Legion's loyalty mission was provided to the heretics by Sovereign. But there is no evidence that it was used on the geth before.

And said earlier by Legion, "We believe all life should self-determinate. The heretics chose to follow Sovereign"

Wait. What? Are we playing different games? Did I imagine the whole line of questioning from Legion in which he explained why the Heretics 'chose' to follow Nazara?

And the virus created to rewrite the True Geth to accept Nazara's influence, that was provided to the Heretics by Nazara, and was repurposed by Legion to remove Nazara's influence from the Heretics themselves. I'm not sure what your point about this is, and what the "no evidence it was used on the geth before" line means. If the Heretics weren't robo-indoctrinated by Nazara in the first place, there would be no need for and indeed no efficacy of the 'rewrite virus'. So much for geth "free will" and lack of meddling by Nazara.

And your remark about Nazara offering the geth "true unity"? Where does that come from? "Hey geth, I know you were all unified and whatnot before I offered you this Reaper technology, but I can unify you all again if you'll just ALL accept it?" That's a pretty big Logic Fail, if you ask me. Nazara introduced the schism in the two geth factions, those who accepted his tech and were 'rewritten', the Heretics, and those who chose to explore other paths on their own, the True Geth. I'm not sure why this is even in question, and how any of this paints the quarians in any better light.

[Siansonea]

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Please, let's not let this thread devolve into a Tali-bashing thread. That's not it's purpose.

i was responding to someones reply oh glorious fake mod.

Somebody's a bit touchy today?

There are ways to say things that don't come across as bashing, and that's the preferred way of communicating if your goal is to actually have an intelligent conversation. If you just want people to know that you hate Tali and she sux!!!!...well, mission accomplished, I guess. Thanks for playing.

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Please, let's not let this thread devolve into a Tali-bashing thread. That's not it's purpose.

i was responding to someones reply oh glorious fake mod.

Somebody's a bit touchy today?

There are ways to say things that don't come across as bashing, and that's the preferred way of communicating if your goal is to actually have an intelligent conversation. If you just want people to know that you hate Tali and she sux!!!!...well, mission accomplished, I guess. Thanks for playing.

yeah, ignore all my actual reasons for disliking her and reduce everything i said to "i hate tali and she sux!!!" if thats what it takes for you to feel superior, well mission accomplished, i guess. thanks for playing.

[Siansonea]

mrsph wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And your remark about Nazara offering the geth "true unity"? Where does that come from? "Hey geth, I know you were all unified and whatnot before I offered you this Reaper technology, but I can unify you all again if you'll just ALL accept it?" That's a pretty big Logic Fail, if you ask me. Nazara introduced the schism in the two geth factions, those who accepted his tech and were 'rewritten', the Heretics, and those who chose to explore other paths on their own, the True Geth. I'm not sure why this is even in question, and how any of this paints the quarians in any better light.

The geth want to build a dyson sphere and upload all of their programs in it. Becoming one singular being. Sovereign offered them a shortcut by saying it would give them a Reaper shell to inhabit, lying of course.

And some of them wisely chose not to take the offer, realizing that achieving their goal through their own efforts was far preferable to a prepackaged solution from a source they know little or nothing about, especially where said source's agenda/motives are concerned. I still don't understand the overall point you're trying to make with regards to the Heretics, the True Geth, the rewrite virus, and the moral burden of the quarians for the Morning War and the recent conflicts between quarians and the geth.

[PMC65]

Clonedzero wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Is it wrong that I was fairly neutral and didn't care about Tali, but after seeing all the crazy Tali fans and all they post about her, I now hate her alot?

My opinion is yes, unless some of us Talimancers showed you something about Tali that you hated. Generally, I support people forming their own opinions of the character, rather than looking at the fans and judging the character after what their fans may or may not have done.
Then again, it's your choice who to hate and why, not going to stop you doing that.
Edit: Just out of curiosity, what did we, as a whole, ever post to incite such hatred in you?

well they seem to give her WAY too much credit. i basically ignored her for the most part but then inspired by how much love tali fans have i talked to her alot more and paid attention to her story archs.

i discovered she's the most illogical character in the game. she's barely an adult. has no combat training. has absolutely no reason to join shepards crew other than "i gave you geth data can i tag along? teehee!". is a member of a species that has no notable immune system and a minor suit rupture can be fatal. a compelte liability on the field. not to mention NO COMBAT TRAINING.

her character makes no sense in the context with the story.her being a non-combat member of the crew would have been acceptable, but her being a squadmate for combat purposes MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

not to mention how in ME1 all she did was spew out facts about quarians and geth. a glorified codex page and then suddenly in ME2 she's a super naive cute nerd girl? wtf? its like her character got dumber and more immature as she got older and more responsibilities. makes absolutely NO sense.

In ME1, Tali was my little codebreaker on the planets ... but ME2 that wasn't required so she felt a little lost to me. That made me get a little creative and I started playing her like Kaylee Frye, as in Serenity's mechanic, in ME2. You know,  I saw her helping to keep the Normandy running and on occasion helping Shepard crack something. But I didn't take her on missions for combat purposes.