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[Satyricon331]

My understanding is that present-day Tevinter is supposed to parallel Byzantium, and the Qunari the Islamic world (at least loosely).  That got me thinking whether BW might have them develop the way their real-world analogues did.  If so, the Qunari would eventually take over all of Tevinter except Minrathous for awhile, until the city itself falls.

Do you think the devs would have the societies develop that way?  They're already foreshadowing a Chantry schism a la the Protestants - even apart from the already existing Black/White Chantry divide that mimics Othodoxy/Catholicism.  (Another thread mentions if you keep Sister Petrice alive and talk to her in Act III then she'll mention she's working towards a schism within the (white) Chantry.)  There are some other existing examples.  So it might not be a stretch to think they'll use new parallels to real-world events, and having the Qunari overwhelm Tevinter might be one.

If they did so, would you like it?  Do you like it when fantasy settings closely parallel real world history, like would often happen in Toril?

And fwiw, I don't think they're following RW history too closely - the mage rebellion doesn't have any obvious parallel that's coming to mind.  Stretching it, I can think of some pre-Reformation events you could shoehorn in (the heresies?), but nothing good.

[IanPolaris]

I think that Fereldan is roughly equivalent to England (which was considered a backwater during the thirty years war period) and forshadowing a protestant style reformation because of Church abuses, King Alistair is making it quietly clear that Fereldan is about to go "Church of England" over the White Chantry w/r/t the issue of magic (while IRL it was because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce)....but I think otherwise the parallel holds.

-Polaris

[TheBlackBaron]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think that Fereldan is roughly equivalent to England (which was considered a backwater during the thirty years war period) and forshadowing a protestant style reformation because of Church abuses, King Alistair is making it quietly clear that Fereldan is about to go "Church of England" over the White Chantry w/r/t the issue of magic (while IRL it was because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce)....but I think otherwise the parallel holds.

-Polaris

The devs have explicity stated that Ferelden is based on an Anglo-Saxon England that had, circa 1200 AD, thrown off the Normans (represented here by the Orlesians). Highever is sort of like Scotland and Ireland, having been militarily conquered by Calenhad just as the above were frequently invaded by England.

EDIT: Also, on the Mage-Templar War: reminds me of the Thirty Years War in many ways. It'll start off as a religious conflict (think of the mages as playing a vaguely similar role to the Lutherans and Calvinists) but eventually morph into a struggle for political dominance between Orlais and Tevinter. With the qunari ever lurking on the horizon, of course - they've not had their Siege of Vienna yet. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 01 mai 2011 - 09:15 .

[JoHnDoE14]

I do hope however that the Tevinter Imperium will not fall. It would be tragic to see another Byzantium (and the magisters falling).

[Coous]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think that Fereldan is roughly equivalent to England (which was considered a backwater during the thirty years war period) and forshadowing a protestant style reformation because of Church abuses, King Alistair is making it quietly clear that Fereldan is about to go "Church of England" over the White Chantry w/r/t the issue of magic (while IRL it was because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce)....but I think otherwise the parallel holds.




-Polaris

The devs have explicity stated that Ferelden is based on an Anglo-Saxon England that had, circa 1200 AD, thrown off the Normans (represented here by the Orlesians). Highever is sort of like Scotland and Ireland, having been militarily conquered by Calenhad just as the above were frequently invaded by England.

EDIT: Also, on the Mage-Templar War: reminds me of the Thirty Years War in many ways. It'll start off as a religious conflict (think of the mages as playing a vaguely similar role to the Lutherans and Calvinists) but eventually morph into a struggle for political dominance between Orlais and Tevinter. With the qunari ever lurking on the horizon, of course - they've not had their Siege of Vienna yet. 

The Normans merely replaced the aristocracy of England when Duke William came took over the throne in 1066. Orlais on the other hand is not Norman based if you ask me, they're more based on a later France, a people that think of themselves as French not Brenton,Norman, etc so this is a France based on after Hundred Years war. The game draws its basis from various points in history not just one so that should be kept in mind,  Also England wasn't a total backwater either, after 1066 and the Normans bring continental influences to the Isles it was moved towards just as advance as most continental kingdoms.

Modifié par Coous, 01 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Coous,

Until the 18th century, England was considered a backwater of Europe.

-Polaris

[Jedi Master of Orion]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think that Fereldan is roughly equivalent to England (which was considered a backwater during the thirty years war period) and forshadowing a protestant style reformation because of Church abuses, King Alistair is making it quietly clear that Fereldan is about to go "Church of England" over the White Chantry w/r/t the issue of magic (while IRL it was because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce)....but I think otherwise the parallel holds.

-Polaris

The devs have explicity stated that Ferelden is based on an Anglo-Saxon England that had, circa 1200 AD, thrown off the Normans (represented here by the Orlesians). Highever is sort of like Scotland and Ireland, having been militarily conquered by Calenhad just as the above were frequently invaded by England.

EDIT: Also, on the Mage-Templar War: reminds me of the Thirty Years War in many ways. It'll start off as a religious conflict (think of the mages as playing a vaguely similar role to the Lutherans and Calvinists) but eventually morph into a struggle for political dominance between Orlais and Tevinter. With the qunari ever lurking on the horizon, of course - they've not had their Siege of Vienna yet. 

I would imagine we'd probably see a "Fall of Constantinople/Minrathous" first. That was a pretty significant event in it's own right. Then again, I don't know if Bioware would deprive the setting of such an effective group of villians as the Tevinter Magisters seem to be.

[Satyricon331]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think that Fereldan is roughly equivalent to England (which was considered a backwater during the thirty years war period) and forshadowing a protestant style reformation because of Church abuses, King Alistair is making it quietly clear that Fereldan is about to go "Church of England" over the White Chantry w/r/t the issue of magic (while IRL it was because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce)....but I think otherwise the parallel holds.

-Polaris

The devs have explicity stated that Ferelden is based on an Anglo-Saxon England that had, circa 1200 AD, thrown off the Normans (represented here by the Orlesians). Highever is sort of like Scotland and Ireland, having been militarily conquered by Calenhad just as the above were frequently invaded by England.

EDIT: Also, on the Mage-Templar War: reminds me of the Thirty Years War in many ways. It'll start off as a religious conflict (think of the mages as playing a vaguely similar role to the Lutherans and Calvinists) but eventually morph into a struggle for political dominance between Orlais and Tevinter. With the qunari ever lurking on the horizon, of course - they've not had their Siege of Vienna yet. 

I would imagine we'd probably see a "Fall of Constantinople/Minrathous" first. That was a pretty significant event in it's own right. Then again, I don't know if Bioware would deprive the setting of such an effective group of villians as the Tevinter Magisters seem to be.

I agree they'd be making a mistake to have Tevinter fall off-screen... but it might make for a DA game's main political issue, either leaving the city's fate up to the player or something less dramatic like having the player be in the city, either helping the magisters evacuate, helping the Qunar somehow, etc.

And could I definitely see Alistair splitting from the Chantry, but do you think it'd be on his own?  I think it'd be easier to see it if the schism starts elsewhere, or the Chantry's discontents collect around him and prompt him - but if they do then there'd be the issue that they might be more like Petrice than Alistair. (Ohh!  There's another parallel to Henry VIII - the devs seemed to go to some lengths to ensure Alistair/Anora will be childless, although I don't know what the significance will be, especially not in relation to religion.)

[IanPolaris]

Satyricon331 wrote...

And could I definitely see Alistair splitting from the Chantry, but do you think it'd be on his own?  I think it'd be easier to see it if the schism starts elsewhere, or the Chantry's discontents collect around him and prompt him - but if they do then there'd be the issue that they might be more like Petrice than Alistair. (Ohh!  There's another parallel to Henry VIII - the devs seemed to go to some lengths to ensure Alistair/Anora will be childless, although I don't know what the significance will be, especially not in relation to religion.)

I don't think Alistair will be on his own, but I see him being first and significantly different from the other Chantry Breakups.  [Warning the following is JIMHO but it's informed opinion]

In Fereldan we already see Alistair "nationalizing" magic either by freeing the circle (or trying to) and/or making Fereldan a Mage Haven, and it's pretty clear he's told the Templars to "go fish" and even before things go haywire in Kirkwall, it seems clear tha the Chantry/Templars either can not or will not bring him to heel (the best Meredith can do is making threatening noises).  Also remember that the Mages in Fereldan tended to be the most moderate in Thedas and the Templars tended to be the most liberal making the Fereldan circle easily the most lax and liberal circle in all of Thedas (outside Tevinter anyway).

So given all that, I see Alistair declaring himself to have the sole authority to appoint the Grand Cleric of Denerim and makes himself "Defender of the Faith" and in one fell swoop puts all the Chantry property, resources, and personelle including the Templars under direct Royal oversight.  Given the aftermath of Kirkwall and facing an incipent invasion by Orlais, I can see both Irving and Gregoire going along with this too (with varying degrees of enthusiasm).  This is why I see Fereldan going "Church of England" on the Chantry and the Chantry would actually change very little (or even not at all) for daily life other than a strong liberalization of the rules of magic and who is in charge.

I see it happening very differently elsewhere.  Elsewhere, I see the mages gaining wide support within the nobility (much as the Lutherans did in Nothern Germany) not because the nobles love mages but because they like wondering rogish bands of armed thugs wandering through their lands less (and the Templars have become just that having divorced themselves from the Chantry).  Thus elsewhere I see a religious schism along magic lines that is a poor disquise for nobles fighting chantry supported royalty in Orlais, Nevarra, and elsewhere.

-Polaris

[Satyricon331]

I don't know if you're right, but if the Ferelden Chantry were making an issue of the country's mage policies, then you've persuaded me that Alistair (esp. hardened) could split from the Chantry without having other people plant the idea in his head. It's not nearly as implausible as I had imagined. (and with Anora it's easy to see.)

[IanPolaris]

Satyricon331 wrote...

I don't know if you're right, but if the Ferelden Chantry were making an issue of the country's mage policies, then you've persuaded me that Alistair (esp. hardened) could split from the Chantry without having other people plant the idea in his head. It's not nearly as implausible as I had imagined. (and with Anora it's easy to see.)

We know that Meredith is making an issue of it...she virtually spits in King Alistair's face.  As for the chantry, he (Alistair) says that he and the chantry don't see eye to eye when it comes to magic, and that makes the Chantry 'upset' (or something very much like it).

In any event, we know for a fact that the Chantry is making an issue of Fereldan's mage policies even before the Kirkwall debacle.

-Polaris

[Satyricon331]

Yes, I meant the local Chantry though. W/o Templars, "The" Chantry doesn't have much input without the cooperation of the local Chantry officials, I would imagine. If King Alistair says the Chantry's unhappy with him then perhaps he is referring to its officials back home in Ferelden.

Anyways, do you like it when events mirror real-world events? For me it's a tradeoff since I like having a structure that can fuel speculation but it also can reduce the setting's imaginativeness (in my eye).

[IanPolaris]

The thing is though that the senior chantry clerics are already skating on thin ice because they openly backed a brutal Orlesian occupation and most Fereldans haven't forgotten that. I expect that if King Alistair went "Church of England" on the Divine, the Grand Cleric would have to be replaced but if KC Gregoire went along (and I think he would grudgingly), that would be that. I think most of the local "Mothers" would fall in line especially given the feelings of their worshippers.

That is largely what happened in England. At least initially the spit from Rome was almost invisible to the average peasent and thus largely supported since it freed up a lot of wealth for everyone that had been tied up in Ecclesiastic property rights.

-Polaris

[Satyricon331]

As I recall, in England, it also lowered peasants' church taxes (I can't recall the term).

In any case, I hadn't heard the Chantry clerics supported the Orlesians. Was that in the books?

[IanPolaris]

Satyricon331 wrote...

As I recall, in England, it also lowered peasants' church taxes (I can't recall the term).

In any case, I hadn't heard the Chantry clerics supported the Orlesians. Was that in the books?

Yes.  It was in the Calling IIRC.  King Maric and Gen Loghain came within a whisker of throwing out the Chantry because of their overt and explicit backing of a hated Orlesian occupation.

That wasn't all that long ago....

-Polaris

[Satyricon331]

Wow, it makes you wonder how deep belief in the Chantry's religion actually runs.

[IanPolaris]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Wow, it makes you wonder how deep belief in the Chantry's religion actually runs.

Near as I can tell, the typical peasent in Thedas is a lot like Alistair.  They believe in the maker well enough, but for the most part can't be bothered with the details of the Chantry.  I rather suspect that was true for late midaeval/early rennessiance Europe as well.  For the average person (even the average noble), church politics was best left to churchmen.

That's why King Henry VIII got away with what he did....and while England was the only one that went "Church of England" on Rome, it wasn't the only nation that almost did.  During the same period of time, the Churches of both Spain and France (for political reasons) came within a hair of also breaking with Rome.

-Polaris

[blothulfur]

Don't think Alistairs got the stones however if Anora is ruling beside him that's another matter, besides if Thedas is set around the thirteenth century then Tevinter being Byzantium would still have a couple of centuries to slowly collapse while the qunari eat up their provinces. Constantinople fell 1453 if I remember correctly.

[IanPolaris]

blothulfur wrote...

Don't think Alistairs got the stones however if Anora is ruling beside him that's another matter, besides if Thedas is set around the thirteenth century then Tevinter being Byzantium would still have a couple of centuries to slowly collapse while the qunari eat up their provinces. Constantinople fell 1453 if I remember correctly.

Yeah, but:

1.  I don't think the writers of DA are going to be held to the historical timeline.
2.  The Byzantine Empire was little more than a city state long before Constantiople actually fell, and the Turks were well into the Balkans by the time it did.

As for Alistair having the stones, judging by his cameo in DA2, he does have the stones for it either with Anora or without (probably supplied by the Hero of Fereldan).  Just saying.

-Polaris

Edit:  I actually think politically, Thedas is set more like 1600 AD rather than 1300s.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 02 mai 2011 - 09:02 .

[Coous]

IanPolaris wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

And could I definitely see Alistair splitting from the Chantry, but do you think it'd be on his own?  I think it'd be easier to see it if the schism starts elsewhere, or the Chantry's discontents collect around him and prompt him - but if they do then there'd be the issue that they might be more like Petrice than Alistair. (Ohh!  There's another parallel to Henry VIII - the devs seemed to go to some lengths to ensure Alistair/Anora will be childless, although I don't know what the significance will be, especially not in relation to religion.)

I don't think Alistair will be on his own, but I see him being first and significantly different from the other Chantry Breakups.  [Warning the following is JIMHO but it's informed opinion]

In Fereldan we already see Alistair "nationalizing" magic either by freeing the circle (or trying to) and/or making Fereldan a Mage Haven, and it's pretty clear he's told the Templars to "go fish" and even before things go haywire in Kirkwall, it seems clear tha the Chantry/Templars either can not or will not bring him to heel (the best Meredith can do is making threatening noises).  Also remember that the Mages in Fereldan tended to be the most moderate in Thedas and the Templars tended to be the most liberal making the Fereldan circle easily the most lax and liberal circle in all of Thedas (outside Tevinter anyway).

So given all that, I see Alistair declaring himself to have the sole authority to appoint the Grand Cleric of Denerim and makes himself "Defender of the Faith" and in one fell swoop puts all the Chantry property, resources, and personelle including the Templars under direct Royal oversight.  Given the aftermath of Kirkwall and facing an incipent invasion by Orlais, I can see both Irving and Gregoire going along with this too (with varying degrees of enthusiasm).  This is why I see Fereldan going "Church of England" on the Chantry and the Chantry would actually change very little (or even not at all) for daily life other than a strong liberalization of the rules of magic and who is in charge.

I see it happening very differently elsewhere.  Elsewhere, I see the mages gaining wide support within the nobility (much as the Lutherans did in Nothern Germany) not because the nobles love mages but because they like wondering rogish bands of armed thugs wandering through their lands less (and the Templars have become just that having divorced themselves from the Chantry).  Thus elsewhere I see a religious schism along magic lines that is a poor disquise for nobles fighting chantry supported royalty in Orlais, Nevarra, and elsewhere.

-Polaris

Agreed.

I think it's a case of Nobility not neccesartly supporting a moral issue for moral sakes(although don't get me wrong there are that clearly due and it is seen at beginning of Act 3) but I think it's some cunning nobility taking advantage to gain more power. You must remember in a protestant country the ruler is name defender of the faith and not possible forgien organization making the calls. 

You can also probably see some strong power like say France with person you know like Cardinal Richaleu take this oppurtunitty to have his country finnancial back some countrys like Fereldan fight chantry forces and countries that support them as did Richaleu to the various states of the HRE to weaken its mortal enemy. I can easily see Tevinter backing some countries who would take steps as described above the idea of nationalizing magic.  

You also have Nevarra becoming very powerful like nation as well even able to rival Orlais in power that can help form a mock Protestant Union v.s. Catholic League. Another way I can see this being a Tevinter funded operation is what they gain is a well weakened southern border of countries that will be fighting against eachother for a long time and if Tevinter plays their cards right can sweep them all aside with an awesome Gustav Adolphous move gaining some nice chunk of land.  


EDIT: I like to point I'd like, and think it's more likely Bioware will take stuff historical route sure,but defintly not verbatum and wont always act like the country it's based off of that's why I'd like to personally see a Tevinter Gustav go in. But let's also not forget Byzantium by 1399 was looking pretty down an out, though they showed capable makings of a small comeback for a number of years in 1407ish they did retake some of their Greek territory back so don't count the Byzatines as totally done for a little bit. You also must remember that earlier the Latin Crusaders that sacked Constaninople in I believe e the 4th Crusade was a huge blow to the Empire.

Modifié par Coous, 02 mai 2011 - 09:25 .

[blothulfur]

The armour would definitely bear out your dating i'm just going by what's been said by the writers as to Ferelden being analagous to thirteenth century england (though it could be said to be behind the times compared to the majority of Thedas), Alistair i'm somewhat biased on as even hardened he seems too much of a yes man but the gritty realities of actually ruling may well have made him somewhat more ruthless.

It is a possibility that he may simply be wrangling with the clergy over his right to rule undisputed in Ferelden as one can assume the divines stooges are not too fond of independant kings and are testing to see how much of the pie they can take from him as a young and untried king.

[Critical Miss]

I suppose Thedas is ready for a reformation of some sort, and a new age of reason. The Chantry stands in the way of that happening, it seems. As far as Tevinter is concerned, I consider it to be another Thay, rather than anything that's existed in human history.

[Morroian]

With the chantry splitting apart I can't see Alistair not taking advantage to take control of the mage circle.

I can easily see DA3 being set across more than 1 country to show the affects and outcomes of the conflict across Thedas.

Modifié par Morroian, 02 mai 2011 - 11:11 .

[Ulicus]

Why the fixation on Alistair? I realise he's the only who gets the cameo, but I'm pretty sure that if BioWare go down the "Chantry of Ferelden" route, they'll do it irrespective of who took the throne.

[HSHAW]

Ulicus wrote...

Why the fixation on Alistair? I realise he's the only who gets the cameo, but I'm pretty sure that if BioWare go down the "Chantry of Ferelden" route, they'll do it irrespective of who took the throne.

They're fixating on Alistair because the majority of people put him on the throne over Anora.