216 réponses à ce sujet

[88mphSlayer]

jlb524 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

and would the Templars not also claim self-defense?

I'm not sure how they could, given that they were in no immediate danger from mages or anyone...they were the aggressors.

88mphSlayer wrote...

Merrill brought danger on the clan and the response is that she's more important than the clan eh?

Any threat Merrill possibly posed wasn't obvious or immediate and can't be compared to Templars hunting down mages with big swords...now that's an obvious immediate threat to life.  I also don't find the Merrill fear justified and I think most of it was due to demon-possessed Marethari whipping them into a frenzy.

Marethari was the only member of the Dalish clan friendly to Merrill the entire game and even she was extremely cautious, the rest of the Dalish clan downright disliked Merrill's goals from the very start, even your companions don't like it and Anders thinks you're an idiot for trusting her so much

Merrill's stubborness led to death, that Marethari sacrificed herself so Merrill wouldn't be possessed is redundant - Merrill would've brought danger to the clan regardless because of her actions, there were obvious warnings the entire time that she did not heed and if you go through with things you did not heed either

that people pass off the Dalish clan as "throwing themselves on your swords" because they were never as forgiving from the start? that sounds like brushing burdens under the rug to me

[88mphSlayer]

Rifneno wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...
if rogue mages from the circle were destroying the templars from the inside out long before the right of annulment is called then that's self-defense, no matter how extremist the solution may be

And in turn, those rogue mages could claim self detense because the templars are condemning them to life in prison in a haunted slave prison because they were born wrong.  Thanks for playing, better luck next time.  

easy: stop using blood magic, stop killing innocents, then we'll talk

[Rifneno]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...
if rogue mages from the circle were destroying the templars from the inside out long before the right of annulment is called then that's self-defense, no matter how extremist the solution may be

And in turn, those rogue mages could claim self detense because the templars are condemning them to life in prison in a haunted slave prison because they were born wrong.  Thanks for playing, better luck next time.  

easy: stop using blood magic, stop killing innocents, then we'll talk

And for the templars:  stop stealing people's souls, stop raping everyone in sight, then we'll talk.

[Humakt83]

I had no moral dilemmas taking templar side. There was not a single good mage in Kirkwall, either they were Tevinter slavers, practicers of blood magic, possessed or simple thugs. In the end Rite of Annulment was like slaying whole host of demon spawns.

I did show mercy on few mages who surrendered though. And to Hawke's sister.

Maybe if the game had shown more of that supposed oppression templars committed I might have felt otherwise. But like good Knight-Captain Cullen mentioned, siding with the oppressed mages is the popular thing to do no matter how well justified the oppression is, which is clearly reflected on these forums. To me mages in Kirkwall were clearly portrayed at least as a sinister if not straight evil force.

And like Leliana mentioned, there was a group working covert for the purposes of enticing rebellion and with a goal of mage supremacy. Maybe Anders worked with them.

[IanPolaris]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Marethari was the only member of the Dalish clan friendly to Merrill the entire game and even she was extremely cautious, the rest of the Dalish clan downright disliked Merrill's goals from the very start, even your companions don't like it and Anders thinks you're an idiot for trusting her so much

They disliked Merrill because of the misinformation (and even downright lies) that Merathari told them (and it's quite possible that Merethari was possessed for a lot longer than the game wants you to assume).

Merrill's stubborness led to death, that Marethari sacrificed herself so Merrill wouldn't be possessed is redundant - Merrill would've brought danger to the clan regardless because of her actions, there were obvious warnings the entire time that she did not heed and if you go through with things you did not heed either

I deny negative responsibility.  Merrill knew perfectly well what risks she took dealing with a demon and took positive steps (including getting Hawke to kill her if she was possessed) so that she and only she would have to pay the price for that.  It was Merethari that chose to become possessed with no safeguards (which probably was Audacity's plan from the start) and we learn of the supposed demon plan (which contradicts existing lore regarding the Elluvian btw) AFTER Merethari is possessed.

In short, you are taking a Pride Abomination's word at face value.  :facepalm:

that people pass off the Dalish clan as "throwing themselves on your swords" because they were never as forgiving from the start? that sounds like brushing burdens under the rug to me

Not at all.  The Dalish clan made up their minds and weren't about to listen to anything other than Merrill was completely at fault.  Who's to blame for this?  Merethari.  In the case where the Dalish clan doesn't attack, the chief hunter even grudgingly admits that Merethari supposedly loved Merril more than she loved the clan....not a good trait in a Keeper.

-Polaris

[jlb524]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Merrill's stubborness led to death, that Marethari sacrificed herself so Merrill wouldn't be possessed is redundant - Merrill would've brought danger to the clan regardless because of her actions, there were obvious warnings the entire time that she did not heed and if you go through with things you did not heed either

That's debatable, that Merrill was to bring danger regardless....especially considering the clan was supposed to have moved on well before year 7.

88mphSlayer wrote...
that people pass off the Dalish clan as "throwing themselves on your swords" because they were never as forgiving from the start? that sounds like brushing burdens under the rug to me

It was...Merrill posed no immediate threat to them and they didn't want to listen to Hawke's explanation.

I'm not saying that I don't understand their reaction, but they were not acting in self-defense at that moment and their situation cannot be compared to the mages' reaction to Meredith.

[Iosev]

I think the ending would have been better if these things happened:

If you sided with the Templars to enforce the Rite of Annulment, then not only should you witness innocent magi be slaughtered (including children), but you shouldn't be able to protect Bethany (if she was sent to the Circle) from Meredith. If you agree to annul the Circle, then that decision should be made with the knowledge that Bethany is a part of the Circle, and allowing you to save her puts far less weight in the decision.

Contrastingly, if you decide to protect the magi from the annulment, then you should witness several corrupt magi brutally murder templars, and then escape, with the assumption that they killed more innocents later on. In addition, you should be aware that several good templars are killed because you tried to protect the magi; this includes both Cullen and Carver (if he became a templar).

I think if these things occurred, if would give your decision far more weight, and illustrate the negatives of both decisions. If you side with the magi, then you should witness that you are also protecting several corrupt magi, and if you side with the templars, then you should witness that you are also killing several innocent people.

As it is now, you never feel the gravity of the Rite of Annulment because you don't really experience the negatives of each outcome. 

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 mai 2011 - 07:05 .

[jlb524]

Humakt83 wrote...

I had no moral dilemmas taking templar side. There was not a single good mage in Kirkwall, either they were Tevinter slavers, practicers of blood magic, possessed or simple thugs. In the end Rite of Annulment was like slaying whole host of demon spawns.

The problem is that you're not going to see many good mages as you play the game as you are only going to fight the bad ones...but you can hardly leap to the conclusion that all mages are bad.  That's like saying all Mabari hounds are bad b/c the only ones I ever see in game attack me.

...then it's funny you go on to mention Bethany who is a good mage but assume there's no more like her in Kirkwall...

[Agamo45]

The Rite was absolutely justified, the Kirkwall circle was corrupt from top to bottom, even Orsino was knowingly harboring a blood mage. And when Anders blew up the Chantry, it was the catalyst for the whole circle to revolt. They had to be wiped out.

[Humakt83]

You people realize that you can do Merril's Quest without killing the whole clan? Just don't try to kill Keeper when the chance for it is presented. Then they won't assume that Merril killed her,

[v_ware]

Slaughtering the Dalish was much worse.

The Dalish are not a danger, to anyone. The mages are really dangerous as seen plenty of times in DA2. (I find the Right of Anulment also very very very wrong)

[IanPolaris]

Humakt83 wrote...

You people realize that you can do Merril's Quest without killing the whole clan? Just don't try to kill Keeper when the chance for it is presented. Then they won't assume that Merril killed her,

False.  You have to kill the Keeper since she becomes a Pride abomination and attacks you and tries to kill you.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

If you side with the Templar and talk with Aveline, she says that Donnic has to protect the citizens from the mages (if you side with the mages, she says that Donnic is stopping citizens from joining the battle against mages).

So yes, I feel perfectly justified in slaughtering the mages when the majority of them were turning to blood magic, were openly supporting treason in the streets, were mind controlling people to use against you and are now attacking innocent civilians.

And I don't compare it to morally evil or compare it to destroying the Dalish in DA:O.

[Humakt83]

IanPolaris wrote...

False.  You have to kill the Keeper since she becomes a Pride abomination and attacks you and tries to kill you.

-Polaris

Eventually you have to. But I'm talking about the point where you can influence Merril to thrust a dagger through the keeper. If you kill the Pride Demon second time, you can avoid the fight with the Dalish.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you side with the Templar and talk with Aveline, she says that Donnic has to protect the citizens from the mages (if you side with the mages, she says that Donnic is stopping citizens from joining the battle against mages).

So yes, I feel perfectly justified in slaughtering the mages when the majority of them were turning to blood magic, were openly supporting treason in the streets, were mind controlling people to use against you and are now attacking innocent civilians.

And I don't compare it to morally evil or compare it to destroying the Dalish in DA:O.

No Dave, she does NOT say that.  I've done a couple of Templar Play throughs (because I'm a completionists) and she does NOT finger the mages in the way you say.  Her line is the same regardless of which side you pick except you have the option of getting the City Guard to help if you side with the Templars.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Humakt83 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

False.  You have to kill the Keeper since she becomes a Pride abomination and attacks you and tries to kill you.

-Polaris

Eventually you have to. But I'm talking about the point where you can influence Merril to thrust a dagger through the keeper. If you kill the Pride Demon second time, you can avoid the fight with the Dalish.

You can avoid a fight with the Dalish regardless if you let Merrill take all the blame.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Xilizhra]

If you side with the Templar and talk with Aveline, she says that Donnic has to protect the citizens from the mages (if you side with the mages, she says that Donnic is stopping citizens from joining the battle against mages).

Erm, no. She's saying that the guardsmen won't be siding with the templars.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

No Dave, she does NOT say that.  I've done a couple of Templar Play throughs (because I'm a completionists) and she does NOT finger the mages in the way you say.  Her line is the same regardless of which side you pick except you have the option of getting the City Guard to help if you side with the Templars.

-Polaris

Donnic has kept the guard protecting civilians, Meredith will have no support from them.

^ Mages.

Donnic has kept the guard protecting civilians, it's been contained so far but we really need some luck going ahead.

^Templar.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 07:26 .

[Xilizhra]

Donnic has kept the guard protecting civilians, Meredith will have no support from them.

See my quote.

Donnic has kept the guard protecting civilians, it's been contained so far but we really need some luck going ahead.

Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 07:32 .

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.

Anders' stunt can't exactly have helped the state of the Veil either.

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

I only recall encountering one blood mage outside the tower, and one inside

edit: during the annullment, that is

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 mai 2011 - 07:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

And the fact that there were more demons appearing on their own than being summoned by mages makes no difference?

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

In this case yes they are.  There was no city emergency (other than search and rescue in the ruins of the Chantry) UNTIL Meredith declared war on all mages.  In any event, the dialog doesn't say what you think it does.

-Polaris