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[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

I only recall encountering one blood mage outside the tower, and one inside

edit: during the annullment, that is

Yes, and that bloodmage and it's summoned Pride Demon attacks you no matter what side you take.  That tells me that the Bloodmage is likely an outside mage (and quite possibly a Resolutionsist who's mission was to cause a war).

-Polaris

[Agamo45]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Right.

The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.

Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.

I only recall encountering one blood mage outside the tower, and one inside

edit: during the annullment, that is

Yes, and that bloodmage and it's summoned Pride Demon attacks you no matter what side you take.  That tells me that the Bloodmage is likely an outside mage (and quite possibly a Resolutionsist who's mission was to cause a war).

-Polaris

When you break into the Gallows the mages summon a bunch of demons and skeletons to fight you.

[IanPolaris]

Agamo45 wrote...

When you break into the Gallows the mages summon a bunch of demons and skeletons to fight you.

The mages use forbidden magic to try to save their lives.

Oh the horror of it all.  Mages clearly don't have the right to defend themselves by any means available unlike all other sentient beings.

Please.

Also if you side with the mages or even if you look at the cut scenes, only a VERY FEW mages ever use 'forbidden' magic.

-Polaris

[Agamo45]

IanPolaris wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

When you break into the Gallows the mages summon a bunch of demons and skeletons to fight you.

The mages use forbidden magic to try to save their lives.

Oh the horror of it all.  Mages clearly don't have the right to defend themselves by any means available unlike all other sentient beings.

Please.

Also if you side with the mages or even if you look at the cut scenes, only a VERY FEW mages ever use 'forbidden' magic.

-Polaris

The knowledge to do that didn't suddenly materialize.

[Dave of Canada]

Grace and her gang, Alain (who found his conscious when cornered), the Bloodragers, the Resolutionists, Huon and Evelina. These were all known blood mages running around attacking people in the streets and using demons even before Annulment was called on the mages.

Do you expect me to believe they had nothing to do with the Circle? That so many mages just materialized out of thin air? Many people were resorting to blood magic and having thralls, summoning demons and summoning the dead even before the Chantry went kaboom.

Meredith's been trying to search the tower for blood magic and Orsino is stopping her  from doing it. When siding with either side, we see a bunch of mages summoning demons and raising the dead. What does this mean? Does this mean that *gasp* Meredith could've been right and there's a bunch of blood mages in the Circle? Let's ask Orsino.

Oh wait.

And about the Aveline quote, why does Donnic stop the citizens from joining in when siding with the mages but he's forced to defend them if siding with the mages? Wouldnt' the "defending them from demons summoned by the actions of the templar" be referenced if you still sided with the mages? Wouldn't there be equally enough demons?

[Humakt83]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And about the Aveline quote, why does Donnic stop the citizens from joining in when siding with the mages but he's forced to defend them if siding with the mages? Wouldnt' the "defending them from demons summoned by the actions of the templar" be referenced if you still sided with the mages? Wouldn't there be equally enough demons?

I agree with your other points, but Aveline is referring to her guards helping templars not the citizen.

[Dave of Canada]

Humakt83 wrote...

I agree with your other points, but Aveline is referring to her guards helping templars not the citizen.

I understood it more like the templar won't be getting help from the civilians.

Though that works.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 07:58 .

[IanPolaris]

Agamo45 wrote...

The knowledge to do that didn't suddenly materialize.

In the case of possession, it does actually.  As for the rest, I never said that EVERY mage was innocent, but if even one were innocent (and we know that's certainly true), then the RoA is an unjustified act of genocide because mass murder is ordered because a mage is a mage and for no other reason.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Huon and Evina were sane before going to the gallows (and Evina was a circle mage is good standing for years). They became mentally unbalanced afterwards.

Hmmm.....

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

Going through the Templar ending, I see there's actually one clearly identified blood mage in the tower and a couple of enchanters who seem to summon shades, in addition to First Enchanter Crazy.  Still a long way from a majority - and we have to assume that everyone edit: who can use it isn't holding back.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grace and her gang, Alain (who found his conscious when cornered), the Bloodragers, the Resolutionists, Huon and Evelina. These were all known blood mages running around attacking people in the streets and using demons even before Annulment was called on the mages.

Grace and her gang were from Starkhaven, the Resolutionists were clearly identified as an outside agency by Leliana and I don't recall any evidence Evelina was a blood mage - she was possessed, which is different.  Plus, we know that the majority of people who escaped from the tower in the incident which set Huon, Evelina and Emile were captured without incident after fleeing to their families - we only meet the problem cases.

Modifié par Wulfram, 01 mai 2011 - 08:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the rest, I never said that EVERY mage was innocent, but if even one were innocent (and we know that's certainly true), then the RoA is an unjustified act of genocide because mass murder is ordered because a mage is a mage and for no other reason.

-Polaris

So you would've left the mages turn more to blood magic? You would've left the rebellion happen with blood mages in greater number? Oh, who cares if all of society would turn against them! Blood mages would never harm an "innocent".

[Dave of Canada]

Wulfram wrote...

Grace and her gang were from Starkhaven

And not all of them had turned to blood magic until act 3, Alain for example. They had been in the Kirkwall Circle and eventually gathered more blood mages than what was in the cave in act 1.

the Resolutionists were clearly identified as an outside agency by Leliana

IIRC, Leliana mentions it's a fraternity in the Circle of Magi that's getting out of hand.

and I don't recall any evidence Evelina was a blood mage - she was possessed, which is different.

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Plus, we know that the majority of people who escaped from the tower in the incident which set Huon, Evelina and Emile were captured without incident after fleeing to their families - we only meet the problem cases.

We only meet those they didn't find yet, it doesn't mean that the others weren't blood mages (but it doesn't mean that they were either).

[Big I]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Do you expect me to believe they had nothing to do with the Circle? That so many mages just materialized out of thin air? Many people were resorting to blood magic and having thralls, summoning demons and summoning the dead even before the Chantry went kaboom.

That's handwaved by the Enigma of Kirkwall. It's not some blood mage conspiracy in the Circle that's behind the rise of blood mages and of abominations, it's an effect of living in Kirkwall because of whatever the Tevinters did to the city.

[Dave of Canada]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

That's handwaved by the Enigma of Kirkwall. It's not some blood mage conspiracy in the Circle that's behind the rise of blood mages and of abominations, it's an effect of living in Kirkwall because of whatever the Tevinters did to the city.

A mage living in Kirkwall suddenly becomes a blood mage without knowing it?


*haven't read the Enigma yet*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 08:12 .

[Xilizhra]

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Emile wasn't a blood mage, and Meredith is... paranoid, to say the least.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Emile wasn't a blood mage, and Meredith is... paranoid, to say the least.

He admit that he was telling people he was a blood mage to look dangerous.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 08:14 .

[Alex Kershaw]

I don't think it's even possible to have a rational discussion on this topic because the game world in DA2 is simply ridiculous. Every templar is evil and every mage is evil. It's as if they wanted to make sure that it wasn't a good/bad split and in attempting to balance it, ended up with an entire city full of lunatics.

Every mage and templar attacks you without question for no reason whatsoever. Every mage is a blood mage and eventually becomes an abomination. If we're going off what we've seen solely from DA2, there's no reason not to envoke the right of annullment because you won't be killing anybody innocent anyway.

Still, I like to see past the poor writing and assume there are innocents in the tower, and not invoke the right...

[Big I]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A mage living in Kirkwall suddenly becomes a blood mage without knowing it?


*haven't read the Enigma yet*

The short version is that mages (and even non-mages) are more likely to become blood mages or abominations because of something the Tevinters did to thin the Veil.

Alex Kershaw wrote...
Every templar is evil and every mage is evil. It's as if they wanted to make sure that it wasn't a good/bad split and in attempting to balance it, ended up with an entire city full of lunatics.

I've always assumed that was exactly what happened.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 01 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And not all of them had turned to blood magic until act 3, Alain for example.

Do we know when Alain turned to blood magic?  Aside from his own, rather dubious, testimony when he's trying not to get slaughtered out of hand.

IIRC, Leliana mentions it's a fraternity in the Circle of Magi that's getting out of hand.

She says that the divine long suspected Kirkwall's problems were being spurred by an outside group, and that this attack proves she is right

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Meredith tends to assume everyone is a blood mage, as IIRC her pet tranquil says at the start of the quest.  Emile wasn't.

We only meet those they didn't find yet, it doesn't mean that the others weren't blood mages (but it doesn't mean that they were either).

I find it unlikely that blood mages would surrender so tamely - or flee so unwisely.  Some might have, but there would surely have been incidents if blood mages were in a majority.

[Iosev]

@Alex Kershaw

That's inline with what I mentioned earlier. There should be dire consequences for either decision.

If you decide to protect the magi from the Rite of Annulment, then you should also witness several of the magi you protect committing heinous acts on templars and citizens, and then escaping, with the knowledge that you let these corrupt magi loose. In addition, Cullen and Carver should both be some of the good templars that die because of your decision.

If you decide to support Meredith with invoking the Rite of Annulment, then you should witness several innocent magi slain under the Rite (including children). In addition, you choosing to annul the Circle should result in Meredith killing Bethany as well; allowing you to save her drastically reduces the gravity of your decision.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the game, but I just feel the Rite of Annulment should have had more consequences.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 mai 2011 - 08:32 .

[Wrathra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Emile wasn't a blood mage, and Meredith is... paranoid, to say the least.

He admit that he was telling people he was a blood mage to look dangerous.

Because he wanted to pick up girls.  he thought it made him look like a bad boy. 

I could tell people I'm Elvis Presley. It doesn't make it so.

[Dave of Canada]

Wrathra wrote...

Because he wanted to pick up girls.  he thought it made him look like a bad boy. 

I could tell people I'm Elvis Presley. It doesn't make it so.

... and that wasn't the point I was making, I was saying that the Templar thought Emile was a blood mage because it turns out he was only telling people about it. You were sent to track down three blood mages, one's a blood mage / the other is pretending he's a blood mage and the other is an abomination.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 08:40 .

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

and would the Templars not also claim self-defense? Merrill brought danger on the clan and the response is that she's more important than the clan eh? and i'm sure Anders could claim self-defense too for blowing up the chantry if he wasn't so prepped for martyrdom

The difference is that the Dalish clan members attempt to murder Merrill when they are informed about what happened to Keeper Marethari, who become an abomination of her own volition, while Meredith orders all the Circle mages to be executed because Anders - an apostate - blew up the Kirkwall Chantry.

88mphSlayer wrote...

everything Orsino did basically justified annulment,

Orsino is one single man. How do the actions of one man justify the execution of countless men, women, and children who aren't responsible for his actions?

88mphSlayer wrote...

the circle failed and the Templars were getting corrupted left and right (and we're not talking about the moderate Templars like Thrask who got killed by extremist mages anyways, even Cullen who does not believe in Meredith's extremist view and will draw his sword to protect you even if you're a rebel mage still supported annulment)

Except Cullen doesn't stop the Right of Annulment, Cullen stops Meredith from trying to kill Hawke specifically.

88mphSlayer wrote...

the real problem anyways is that the circle and templars brought civil war upon themselves through complacency, just how many bloodthirsty templars and insane apostates need to wreck Kirkwall before anybody does anything? inevitably if i have to pick a side it's going to be the side that ensures law and order is maintained the city populated by charles manson type murderers on every corner

Given that Hawke never meets the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Gallows while he does encounter mage antagonists outside the Gallows, I don't see how you can blame the Circle of Kirkwall for the criminal element any more than people can place blame on the dwarves for the actions of the carta who Hawke encounters.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[Dave of Canada]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The short version is that mages (and even non-mages) are more likely to become blood mages or abominations because of something the Tevinters did to thin the Veil.

Odd that they'd leave that out.

Wulfram wrote...

Do we know when Alain turned to blood magic?  Aside from his own, rather dubious, testimony when he's trying not to get slaughtered out of hand.

He ran away from the group because they were using blood magic and summoning the dead, I doubt he'd have cared about that if he was a blood mage himself.

She says that the divine long suspected Kirkwall's problems were being spurred by an outside group, and that this attack proves she is right

Doesn't she mention how they used to tolerate the anti-Chantry fraternities but now they are getting violent?

Meredith tends to assume everyone is a blood mage, as IIRC her pet tranquil says at the start of the quest.

Don't remember what the tranquil says, though I'm close to doing the quest right now. I'll post when I have it.

Emile wasn't.

He was telling people he was, so the Templar thought he was one.

I find it unlikely that blood mages would surrender so tamely - or flee so unwisely.  Some might have, but there would surely have been incidents if blood mages were in a majority.

It's one of those situations that I doubt would've been brought up in casual conversation by Meredith, + I'd see blood mages surrendering if they could spare their families (since hiding an apostate is now considered a hanging offense).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 08:46 .

[Dave of Canada]

Alright, Elsa says that Meredith assumes all apostates practice blood magic because she "prefers to err on the side of caution".