216 réponses à ce sujet

[Jade Elf]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we know when Alain turned to blood magic?  Aside from his own, rather dubious, testimony when he's trying not to get slaughtered out of hand.

He ran away from the group because they were using blood magic and summoning the dead, I doubt he'd have cared about that if he was a blood mage himself.

Well, he does use blood magic to "wake up" your kidnapped sibling or companion...

[Dave of Canada]

Jade Elf wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we know when Alain turned to blood magic?  Aside from his own, rather dubious, testimony when he's trying not to get slaughtered out of hand.

He ran away from the group because they were using blood magic and summoning the dead, I doubt he'd have cared about that if he was a blood mage himself.

Well, he does use blood magic to "wake up" your kidnapped sibling or companion...

Yeah, I know. Was just saying he wasn't a blood mage in act 1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but they aren't annihilated if Hawke sides with the mages. I'm not counting templar casualties because they're the aggressors.

That's a cultural view, but not a universal one: you can just as well go 'all lives are equal' as a cultural belief, and let that guide you. Nor does 'aggressor' automatically mean 'unjust' any more than 'defender' mean 'innocent.'

There's also the matter of the civilian populace, and how the off-screen bleedover into hurting the civilians with the chaos.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, so it's best to end the fight as fast as possible. Which work with either side. I simply don't choose the repugnant one.

That's not actually true: when victory by one side is already known (as it is by the Templars), slowing down the Templars in opposition only extends the fighting. To fight the Templars is to extend the time it takes them to bring the fighting to a close by whatever your measure is, with more casualties to the victors as well. To side with the Templars is to end the inevitable that much faster.

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If you side with the Templar and talk with Aveline, she says that Donnic has to protect the citizens from the mages (if you side with the mages, she says that Donnic is stopping citizens from joining the battle against mages).

So yes, I feel perfectly justified in slaughtering the mages when the majority of them were turning to blood magic, were openly supporting treason in the streets, were mind controlling people to use against you and are now attacking innocent civilians.

And I don't compare it to morally evil or compare it to destroying the Dalish in DA:O.

Strange i never seem to get that reponse from her. She only states that the guards are protecting the civilians but not anyone specifically. However varric does confirm that their is generally a state of disorder and looting and chaos was rampant.

Which would fit because most mages would be in the gallows not in the city itself.

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She became possessed after she ran away from the Circle, we're hunting blood mages in the quest. I think they might've mentioned an abomination.

Emile wasn't a blood mage, and Meredith is... paranoid, to say the least.

He admit that he was telling people he was a blood mage to look dangerous.

Do not take everything at face vaulue lad. emile lied.

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

He ran away from the group because they were using blood magic and summoning the dead, I doubt he'd have cared about that if he was a blood mage himself.

He seems to be the type to have belated attacks of conscience.  Grace makes similar claims to him

Doesn't she mention how they used to tolerate the anti-Chantry fraternities but now they are getting violent?

Yes, but she talks about the resolutionists as an outside group.  Looking at the codex about them, they're described as "open apostates" - so they're not members of the circle.  They're also suggested to have connections to the mage underground in Kirkwall.

He was telling people he was, so the Templar thought he was one.

The Templars probably assumed Evelina was a blood mage because she killed those trying to arrest her.  From what we later learn, it seems clear that this was in fact because she became an abomination.

It's one of those situations that I doubt would've been brought up in casual conversation by Meredith, + I'd see blood mages surrendering if they could spare their families (since hiding an apostate is now considered a hanging offense).

One of the reasons Meredith gets Hawke involved in tracking these escapees because she wants to convince the Champion her methods are necessary.  She's surely likely emphasise any blood magic related incidents.

If I was a revolutionary blood mage who had the opportunity to run away and no Phylactery to allow me to be traced, I wouldn't decide to run to the first place the Templars would look.  Unless I was totally nuts like Huon, in which case I wouldn't surrender.

[Jade Elf]

DKJaigen wrote...

Do not take everything at face vaulue lad. emile lied.

It's possible, but we don't really know for certain.

[LobselVith8]

88mphSlayer wrote...

if rogue mages from the circle were destroying the templars from the inside out long before the right of annulment is called then that's self-defense, no matter how extremist the solution may be

Yet we don't have any evidence about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are like. Our exposure to the actual denizens of the Gallows is fairly limited to specific people, and the most exposure we have is with the First Enchanter Orsino and Bethany.

88mphSlayer wrote...

and the clan attacked because Merrill basically killed Marathari with her desire to restore the mirror against wisdom and the wishes of the clan, if you were put in the shoes of the Dalish you might want to reply to that act as well, Merrill was not above the clan

Merrill was already exiled. Marethari made her own choice to become an abomination, she was an adult and acted of her own accord. The clan attempting to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if they are told that the Keeper became an abomination and forcing Hawke and Merrill to defend themselves against this assault isn't Merrill's fault.

88mphSlayer wrote...

and the templars did their duty, that the circle couldn't handle any unforeseen threats to their establishment is the circle's problem, that it spun so out of control as to corrupt both sides means there's no morally superior choice

Meredith makes it clear that her invoking the Right of Annulment has to do with Anders' attack on the Kirkwall Chantry. She makes it explicitly clear when she says how the Champion must admit that this attack "cannot be tolerated" and says, after Anders' explanation for why he blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, that she couldn't stop the Right because "the people will demand blood."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Siding with the Templars is the only moral responsible choice you can make. Saving the mages because you don't have the guts to do what must be done, and then hide behind a facade of "doing the right thing" and "think of the children" outcries, just serves to hold up the mage sympathizers own spineless corpus.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Siding with the Templars is the only moral responsible choice you can make. Saving the mages because you don't have the guts to do what must be done, and then hide behind a facade of "doing the right thing" and "think of the children" outcries, just serves to hold up the mage sympathizers own spineless corpus.

WTF? so how is defending the mages spineless? anyway neither david or you will have any decent arguments except that their are some rotten bloodmages in the circle. while that fact is true their are plenty of rotten templars in the circles and yet you dont see many people calling for the death of all templars even if you meet unsavory people karas and alrick.

But the templars are wrong in this case. If the circle was really a demonic hellhole i would have no problems killing the mages. but in this case its just one group of people blamed for the actions of one person.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Siding with the Templars is the only moral responsible choice you can make. Saving the mages because you don't have the guts to do what must be done, and then hide behind a facade of "doing the right thing" and "think of the children" outcries, just serves to hold up the mage sympathizers own spineless corpus.

WTF? so how is defending the mages spineless? anyway neither david or you will have any decent arguments except that their are some rotten bloodmages in the circle. while that fact is true their are plenty of rotten templars in the circles and yet you dont see many people calling for the death of all templars even if you meet unsavory people karas and alrick.

But the templars are wrong in this case. If the circle was really a demonic hellhole i would have no problems killing the mages. but in this case its just one group of people blamed for the actions of one person.

They are spineles because they keep trying to throw mud at the Templar supporters, this entire thread is one such attempt. And yet they refuse to own up to their own (virtual) actions. How many innocent lives are the life of an innocent mage worth? By helping the mages survive in Kirkwall, you have let loose Blood Mages, who will kill again. Those deaths are on the mage-supporters hands. Yet they keep refusing to acknowledge this, and try to turn the conversation back to how some poor mage child died.

My question is: Why is a mage child worth more than a peasant child?

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

At the point in the game where it is time to make a hard choice it is hardly an easy choice for me unlike the many that only see poor persecuted mages ala Anders.

That's probably because Meredith is condemning an entire population of Circle mages to death in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches because of the actions of an apostate who is trying to start a conflict between the two sides.

Beerfish wrote...

Mages have done enough vile, ambitious, crazy things up to that point to give a person a real pause in thinking. As unfortuante as it is for the normal mages, every mage and his dog is a blood mage.

Every antagonist that we encounter in Kirkwall tries to kill Hawke, whether they are a member of the carta or one of many different criminal organizations, and we do encounter mage antagonists among these criminals who try to kill Hawke. However, blaming the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages outside of the Gallows doesn't sound like an argument that should compel me to side with the templars.

Beerfish wrote...

Now the wail from the pro mage side is that "It isn't their fault! The chantry and the templars made all of us use blood magic and do bad things!"

I believe the argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Our lack of knowledge about the many members of the Circle of Kirkwall doesn't allow us to form a positive or negative opinion about them, but we're provided with the Knight-Commander demanding Hawke's cooperation because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina, the same apostate she'll handwave as she orders the execution of enchanters, mages, and even apprentices.

Beerfish wrote...

At that point in the game it is irrelevant because the gates have been tossed open and there are tons of mages using blood magic roaming around. Yeah, lets wipe out the bully templars and then just let this legion of blood mages settle into whatever local village they like.

You mean the many mages living in the Gallows we know relatively little about because we're never afforded the opportunity to see what they are like, and the closest we get to see the Circle mage lifestyle is from the letter that Bethany writes to Hawke? And I think the argument is that the Circle mages shouldn't be held accountable for Anders' actions.

Beerfish wrote...

No, by that point in the game there is a very good reason to side with the crazed templar, whether the situation was the mages fault or not it is out of hand now.

I respectfully disagree. Meredith's reasoning is that the people will demand blood, and that isn't enough justification for me to side with Meredith against the mages.

Beerfish wrote...

Further to that it could be argued that annulment could overall benefit more mages than it destroys. The rest of Thedas is watching, if annulement takes place and the mage threat (like it or not a mage blew up the chantry) is contained then it is less likely that the Divine will send an army to wipe Kirkwall and that whole area clean. It also lessens the likelyhood for all mages being pariahs in all areas of Thedas.

Anders is the one who blew up the Chantry, not the Circle mages of Kirkwall. Killing Circle mages for an act they are not responsible doesn't sound like justice to me, and Meredith addresses that she ordered the Right since the people "will demand blood," so it's act of giving in to the mob mentality. Of course there ends up being violence in the streets when templars are fighting mages because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment, and mages are fighting for their lives from the people who are ordered to execute them.

[Dave of Canada]

DKJaigen wrote...

so how is defending the mages spineless?

I don't agree with the spineless comment but he does have a point that mage supporters try to make templar supporters feel bad.

I've been called a **** supporter.
I've been told I support homophobia, racism, slavery, genocide, rape, ect because I don't support mages.

anyway neither david or you will have any decent arguments except that their are some rotten bloodmages in the circle.

Excuse me, princess.

while that fact is true their are plenty of rotten templars in the circles and yet you dont see many people calling for the death of all templars even if you meet unsavory people karas and alrick.

Templar can't destroy buildings with their minds, can't mind control people, can't raise the dead, can't be possessed against their will, can't summon demons, can't use the blood of other living beings to fuel their magic.

A "bad" mage can do far more damage than the "bad" templar, the "bad" templar cannot corrupt the "good" ones. Can't the same for mages.

But the templars are wrong in this case. If the circle was really a demonic hellhole i would have no problems killing the mages. but in this case its just one group of people blamed for the actions of one person.

... and did you ignore everything that was happening before the Chantry's destruction?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 mai 2011 - 09:55 .

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Templar can't destroy buildings with their minds, can't mind control people, can't raise the dead, can't be possessed against their will, can't summon demons, can't use the blood of other living beings to fuel their magic.

They're pretty good at chopping people into bits though.  Particularly those damn Templar Hunters.

A "bad" mage can do far more damage than the "bad" templar, the "bad" templar cannot corrupt the "good" ones. Can't the same for mages.

Meredith does plenty of damage, and does a good job at corrupting the rest of the order too, given their acceptance of her order to murder innocents.

[TJPags]

Sorry, I got to go back to the OP here:

Slaughtering the Dalish in DAO was less of an atrocity than the Right of Anullment in DA2?  Because fewer people are killed? 

Really?

The Elves in DAO did NOTHING to deserve being killed.  The only one seemingly worthy of death is Zathrien.  And you can kill him without slaughtering the clan.

The werewolves do not want to destroy the elves - you have to convince them to do it.

So you, the PC, must choose to convince one group of people to murder another, lead them in it, when one and only one person there did anything worthy of death.

Contrast DA2:

We see multiple examples of Circle mages using blood magic.  We see multiple examples of blood mages breaking the law by leaving the Circle without permission.  We see multiple Circle mages turning to abominations and using blood magic in the course of the fight, whichever side you fight on - and they attack you whichever side you fight on.  The First Enchanter goes Harvester and attacks his allies.
And this is a fight which will happen no matter WHAT you do.
So you, the PC, can choose to assist with the Right of Anullment, which will happen no matter what you do or say, and spare mages who surrender in the process.

And because you think you see more deaths on screen - are you counting the abominations in those deaths, btw? -  during the DA2 Right of Anullment than during the slaughter of the Dalish in DAO, you think the Right of Anullment is the worse choice?

Wow.  Just wow.

[Get Magna Carter]

It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.

Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?

Both options are simultaneously right and wrong

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Personally I would have imagined an entire clan of elves is larger than a Circle of Magi. There is always going to be a limit to how many characters can appear onscreen so the amount of deaths you see in the game isn't really going to reflect that.

[Jade Elf]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.

Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?

Both options are simultaneously right and wrong

That's the crux of it. The fun part are the various playthroughs taking one side or the other, depending on how I'm RP'ing Hawke.

[TJPags]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Personally I would have imagined an entire clan of elves is larger than a Circle of Magi. There is always going to be a limit to how many characters can appear onscreen so the amount of deaths you see in the game isn't really going to reflect that.

Indeed.

I'd also think there are just as many, if not more, children in a Dalish clan than there are in the Circle.

Certainly you SEE children with the Dalish in DAO, and you don't see any mage-children in DA2.

[Dave of Canada]

Wulfram wrote...

Particularly those damn Templar Hunters.

Damn them for stealing my potions.

Meredith does plenty of damage

Because she's in a position of power, not because she's a templar. The average templar like Keran or Cullen can't suddenly go insane and destroy an entire village for example, the average mage could.

and does a good job at corrupting the rest of the order too, given their acceptance of her order to murder innocents.

It's not Meredith that "corrupted" them, it's simply a world without modern world ideals where people worship innocents and place them on a pedestal and it's the templar simply doing their job. A man/woman doesn't join the templar thinking it'll be walking around looking at mages having fun every day.

[Sussurus]

Impartially I'd say stemming the anarchy in Kirkwall proper would be the true thing to do as champion.
Whether it be Bloodmages, apostates, demons, templars just following orders, looters, thugs.. whatever.
Keep the bloodshed and emotions to a minimum for the 90%+ of the population that can't defend themselves from either group.

Given the two options however, since Meredith refused any solution beyond death for all, I'd personally side with the circle.

[Jade Elf]

If anything was corrupting it was that "damn idol", to quote Varric.

[LobselVith8]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.

Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?

Both options are simultaneously right and wrong

Guard-Captain Aveline maintains order among the people with the city-guard.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Get Magna Carter wrote...

It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.

Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?

Both options are simultaneously right and wrong

Guard-Captain Aveline maintains order among the people with the city-guard.

Yet when I fought on the side of the Mages, Fenris showed up to attack me with several City Guards at his side.

So we don't exactly know how effective that was, or if it holds throughout the fight.