Mages are spoiled whining brats who bleat for freedom when they have proven time and again they deserve only punishment and whine of opression from their decadent palaces of hedonism and corruption while feudal peasants outside toil to their death for pampered nobility and know not a single day of luxury or learning.
Templars are drug addled idiots who have failed in their duty repeatedly, whether it be in protecting the chantry from a known apostate who has dwelt amongst them for seven years or hunting down the hordes of maleficar that escape from their jurisdiction and wreak havoc in a city where they are supposedly strongest.
Neither group is fit for purpose, there is only one solution and rejoice for under the Qun the saarebas will be given responsibilty, respect and a place in the world while the templars will be shown the true way to control those who would surrender themselves to abominations.
Thought for the day: Under the Qun all are equal and the feudal tyranny of the strong that your nobility foisted upon you ages ago is known as slavery.
Anaan esaam Qun
The Rite of Annulment: a comparison of morality
Débuté par
Xilizhra
, mai 01 2011 05:09
Retour en haut
#102
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 10:28
LobselVith8
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TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Get Magna Carter wrote...
It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.
Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?
Both options are simultaneously right and wrong
Guard-Captain Aveline maintains order among the people with the city-guard.
Yet when I fought on the side of the Mages, Fenris showed up to attack me with several City Guards at his side.
So we don't exactly know how effective that was, or if it holds throughout the fight.
Aveline mentions that some of the city guard defect to side with the templars if she isn't married to Donnic.
#103
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 10:38
EmperorSahlertz
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Didn't you guys just spend 7 years trying to find a book, which shouldn't have been lost in the first place?blothulfur wrote...
Mages are spoiled whining brats who bleat for freedom when they have proven time and again they deserve only punishment and whine of opression from their decadent palaces of hedonism and corruption while feudal peasants outside toil to their death for pampered nobility and know not a single day of luxury or learning.
Templars are drug addled idiots who have failed in their duty repeatedly, whether it be in protecting the chantry from a known apostate who has dwelt amongst them for seven years or hunting down the hordes of maleficar that escape from their jurisdiction and wreak havoc in a city where they are supposedly strongest.
Neither group is fit for purpose, there is only one solution and rejoice for under the Qun the saarebas will be given responsibilty, respect and a place in the world while the templars will be shown the true way to control those who would surrender themselves to abominations.
Thought for the day: Under the Qun all are equal and the feudal tyranny of the strong that your nobility foisted upon you ages ago is known as slavery.
Anaan esaam Qun
#105
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 10:42
EmperorSahlertz
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Right.blothulfur wrote...
No.
Your dwarf lied.
#106
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 10:46
Sussurus
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Didn't you guys just spend 7 years trying to find a book, which shouldn't have been lost in the first place?blothulfur wrote...
Mages are spoiled whining brats who bleat for freedom when they have proven time and again they deserve only punishment and whine of opression from their decadent palaces of hedonism and corruption while feudal peasants outside toil to their death for pampered nobility and know not a single day of luxury or learning.
Templars are drug addled idiots who have failed in their duty repeatedly, whether it be in protecting the chantry from a known apostate who has dwelt amongst them for seven years or hunting down the hordes of maleficar that escape from their jurisdiction and wreak havoc in a city where they are supposedly strongest.
Neither group is fit for purpose, there is only one solution and rejoice for under the Qun the saarebas will be given responsibilty, respect and a place in the world while the templars will be shown the true way to control those who would surrender themselves to abominations.
Thought for the day: Under the Qun all are equal and the feudal tyranny of the strong that your nobility foisted upon you ages ago is known as slavery.
Anaan esaam Qun
The Qun and Chantry are not exactly up to date on magic and its use.
Join the Dalish, you get to frolic with deranged mages in skimpy outfits who are into forbidden lore.
All I can say is three sociopaths and one case of grand possession is minor compared to the circles, imperium, Kirkwall and Tal Vashoth.
Modifié par Sussurus, 01 mai 2011 - 10:54 .
#107
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 11:00
TJPags
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LobselVith8 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Get Magna Carter wrote...
It's a deliberately morally ambiguous choice between justice and order.
Do you fight to maintain order on the streets?
or do you fight to prevent innocents being executed?
Both options are simultaneously right and wrong
Guard-Captain Aveline maintains order among the people with the city-guard.
Yet when I fought on the side of the Mages, Fenris showed up to attack me with several City Guards at his side.
So we don't exactly know how effective that was, or if it holds throughout the fight.
Aveline mentions that some of the city guard defect to side with the templars if she isn't married to Donnic.
She was married to him.
#108
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 11:04
Beerfish
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That's probably because Meredith is condemning an entire population of Circle mages to death in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches because of the actions of an apostate who is trying to start a conflict between the two sides.
No, once again, as usual you are totally selective in your arguements. You mention only Anders when Meredith was ready to do away with mages before hand. Anders was the last straw after tons of examples of dangerous out of control mages.
Every antagonist that we encounter in Kirkwall tries to kill Hawke, whether they are a member of the carta or one of many different criminal organizations, and we do encounter mage antagonists among these criminals who try to kill Hawke. However, blaming the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages outside of the Gallows doesn't sound like an argument that should compel me to side with the templars.
That doesn't matter a bit because at end game it is beyond the time for reason and Orsiono refuses to let Meredith search the tower. A mage is a mage is a mage and it's interesting that you are happy to toss no circle mages under the bus when convenient and yet you actually want to do away with the circle thus making all mages unregulated.
I believe the argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Our lack of knowledge about the many members of the Circle of Kirkwall doesn't allow us to form a positive or negative opinion about them, but we're provided with the Knight-Commander demanding Hawke's cooperation because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina, the same apostate she'll handwave as she orders the execution of enchanters, mages, and even apprentices.
Once again you are focusing on Anders and ignoring all that happened up until then. Heck even a mage sympathizer, thrask was killed by circle mages during the kidnapping quest. At the end point of the game, after all the problems that mages have caused and after their leader refuses to cooperate with the templars the time to play nice is over. As bat**** crazy as Meredith was she was proven totally correct when Orsino went off the deep end, even if you support him.
You mean the many mages living in the Gallows we know relatively little about because we're never afforded the opportunity to see what they are like, and the closest we get to see the Circle mage lifestyle is from the letter that Bethany writes to Hawke? And I think the argument is that the Circle mages shouldn't be held accountable for Anders' actions.
Yup, unfortunate that the circle leader utterly refused to cooperate with the templars when there was a chance for them to be investigated. It's very unfortunate that innocent mages must die but when every seconmd mage you encouter is possessed or a blood mage and the leader is a problem then annulment is the only answer. Circumstance dictates that you can't sit down and nicey nice interview each mage by that point. Would I rather have a number of innocent mages killed or risk a bunch of mages running loose willy nilly in the country side. sorry I'll take defenseless citizens over a mage any day....just like Redcliffe.
I respectfully disagree. Meredith's reasoning is that the people will demand blood, and that isn't enough justification for me to side with Meredith against the mages.
She had already decided she wanted to get rid of the mages that was obvious. Her assertion was correct though and acknoledge by Orsino himself that Anders had doomed them. The high number of blood mages, escapes, conspiracies in the circle and the refusal of the circle leader to do anything at all doomed them as much as Anders.
Anders is the one who blew up the Chantry, not the Circle mages of Kirkwall. Killing Circle mages for an act they are not responsible doesn't sound like justice to me, and Meredith addresses that she ordered the Right since the people "will demand blood," so it's act of giving in to the mob mentality. Of course there ends up being violence in the streets when templars are fighting mages because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment, and mages are fighting for their lives from the people who are ordered to execute them.
It doesn't matter, Orsino as I said agrees at the time that Anders doomed them all. Mages everywhere only hope is that the mages in kirkwall could be totally irradicated and shown that the threat is totally gone. The divine is not going to say "Oh, okay it was only one mage, well in that cases go on about your business. Nor are the commoners and nobles of the area they are going to see all the people killed due to the act of a mages, see all the blood mage activity inside and outside the circle and proably want all mages offed. Do you think that in the other circles things will get better for the mages or worse? Much worse and it is an apostate mage (good reason to not allow any such thing to happen again) and a circle that was not tightly controlled. The Divine and the other circles are not going to think better of mages after this.
No, once again, as usual you are totally selective in your arguements. You mention only Anders when Meredith was ready to do away with mages before hand. Anders was the last straw after tons of examples of dangerous out of control mages.
Every antagonist that we encounter in Kirkwall tries to kill Hawke, whether they are a member of the carta or one of many different criminal organizations, and we do encounter mage antagonists among these criminals who try to kill Hawke. However, blaming the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages outside of the Gallows doesn't sound like an argument that should compel me to side with the templars.
That doesn't matter a bit because at end game it is beyond the time for reason and Orsiono refuses to let Meredith search the tower. A mage is a mage is a mage and it's interesting that you are happy to toss no circle mages under the bus when convenient and yet you actually want to do away with the circle thus making all mages unregulated.
I believe the argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Our lack of knowledge about the many members of the Circle of Kirkwall doesn't allow us to form a positive or negative opinion about them, but we're provided with the Knight-Commander demanding Hawke's cooperation because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina, the same apostate she'll handwave as she orders the execution of enchanters, mages, and even apprentices.
Once again you are focusing on Anders and ignoring all that happened up until then. Heck even a mage sympathizer, thrask was killed by circle mages during the kidnapping quest. At the end point of the game, after all the problems that mages have caused and after their leader refuses to cooperate with the templars the time to play nice is over. As bat**** crazy as Meredith was she was proven totally correct when Orsino went off the deep end, even if you support him.
You mean the many mages living in the Gallows we know relatively little about because we're never afforded the opportunity to see what they are like, and the closest we get to see the Circle mage lifestyle is from the letter that Bethany writes to Hawke? And I think the argument is that the Circle mages shouldn't be held accountable for Anders' actions.
Yup, unfortunate that the circle leader utterly refused to cooperate with the templars when there was a chance for them to be investigated. It's very unfortunate that innocent mages must die but when every seconmd mage you encouter is possessed or a blood mage and the leader is a problem then annulment is the only answer. Circumstance dictates that you can't sit down and nicey nice interview each mage by that point. Would I rather have a number of innocent mages killed or risk a bunch of mages running loose willy nilly in the country side. sorry I'll take defenseless citizens over a mage any day....just like Redcliffe.
I respectfully disagree. Meredith's reasoning is that the people will demand blood, and that isn't enough justification for me to side with Meredith against the mages.
She had already decided she wanted to get rid of the mages that was obvious. Her assertion was correct though and acknoledge by Orsino himself that Anders had doomed them. The high number of blood mages, escapes, conspiracies in the circle and the refusal of the circle leader to do anything at all doomed them as much as Anders.
Anders is the one who blew up the Chantry, not the Circle mages of Kirkwall. Killing Circle mages for an act they are not responsible doesn't sound like justice to me, and Meredith addresses that she ordered the Right since the people "will demand blood," so it's act of giving in to the mob mentality. Of course there ends up being violence in the streets when templars are fighting mages because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment, and mages are fighting for their lives from the people who are ordered to execute them.
It doesn't matter, Orsino as I said agrees at the time that Anders doomed them all. Mages everywhere only hope is that the mages in kirkwall could be totally irradicated and shown that the threat is totally gone. The divine is not going to say "Oh, okay it was only one mage, well in that cases go on about your business. Nor are the commoners and nobles of the area they are going to see all the people killed due to the act of a mages, see all the blood mage activity inside and outside the circle and proably want all mages offed. Do you think that in the other circles things will get better for the mages or worse? Much worse and it is an apostate mage (good reason to not allow any such thing to happen again) and a circle that was not tightly controlled. The Divine and the other circles are not going to think better of mages after this.
#109
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 11:28
LobselVith8
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[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That's probably because Meredith is condemning an entire population of Circle mages to death in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches because of the actions of an apostate who is trying to start a conflict between the two sides. [/quote]
No, once again, as usual you are totally selective in your arguements. You mention only Anders when Meredith was ready to do away with mages before hand. Anders was the last straw after tons of examples of dangerous out of control mages. [/quote]
Although we know from Ser Kerras that Meredith has requested the Right of Annulment from the Divine, we have no proof either way whether there's a real problem with the Circle of Kirkwall or not. Meredith never mentions corruption when she addresses Hawke, she says that this act cannot stand and that the people will demand blood - she specifically addresses what Anders did as the reason for the Right of Annulment.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Every antagonist that we encounter in Kirkwall tries to kill Hawke, whether they are a member of the carta or one of many different criminal organizations, and we do encounter mage antagonists among these criminals who try to kill Hawke. However, blaming the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages outside of the Gallows doesn't sound like an argument that should compel me to side with the templars. [/quote]
That doesn't matter a bit because at end game it is beyond the time for reason and Orsiono refuses to let Meredith search the tower. A mage is a mage is a mage and it's interesting that you are happy to toss no circle mages under the bus when convenient and yet you actually want to do away with the circle thus making all mages unregulated. [/quote]
This statement doesn't really support your argument. Orsino doesn't want to permit her to search the Gallows, and heads to Grand Cleric Elthina to resolve the dispute. Even when Orsino backs down and gives in to what Meredith demands, she refuses to revoke the Right of Annulment. Given that Meredith made it clear that she's ordered the execution of the Circle because of Anders' actions, I see no reason to support Meredith.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I believe the argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Our lack of knowledge about the many members of the Circle of Kirkwall doesn't allow us to form a positive or negative opinion about them, but we're provided with the Knight-Commander demanding Hawke's cooperation because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina, the same apostate she'll handwave as she orders the execution of enchanters, mages, and even apprentices. [/quote]
Once again you are focusing on Anders and ignoring all that happened up until then. Heck even a mage sympathizer, thrask was killed by circle mages during the kidnapping quest. At the end point of the game, after all the problems that mages have caused and after their leader refuses to cooperate with the templars the time to play nice is over. As bat**** crazy as Meredith was she was proven totally correct when Orsino went off the deep end, even if you support him. [/quote]
Thrask was killed by Grace, and Alrik was killed by Hawke when he implied that he would rape the child Ella after making her tranquil because she wanted to tell her mother what happened to her. I don't see the point. There are good and bad people on both sides.
And there's no evidence that Meredith was correct about the Kirkwall Circle, because we're never provided an opportunity to see the many mages of the Gallows before Meredith orders the Right of Annulment is called, and then we fight waves of antagonists like we do in every other quest.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean the many mages living in the Gallows we know relatively little about because we're never afforded the opportunity to see what they are like, and the closest we get to see the Circle mage lifestyle is from the letter that Bethany writes to Hawke? And I think the argument is that the Circle mages shouldn't be held accountable for Anders' actions. [/quote]
Yup, unfortunate that the circle leader utterly refused to cooperate with the templars when there was a chance for them to be investigated. It's very unfortunate that innocent mages must die but when every seconmd mage you encouter is possessed or a blood mage and the leader is a problem then annulment is the only answer. Circumstance dictates that you can't sit down and nicey nice interview each mage by that point. Would I rather have a number of innocent mages killed or risk a bunch of mages running loose willy nilly in the country side. sorry I'll take defenseless citizens over a mage any day....just like Redcliffe. [/quote]
Aveline orders her men to protect the civilians while the templars and mages are fighting because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment. The person who is looking out for the civilians isn't Meredith or Orsino - it's the Guard-Captain Aveline.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Meredith's reasoning is that the people will demand blood, and that isn't enough justification for me to side with Meredith against the mages. [/quote]
She had already decided she wanted to get rid of the mages that was obvious. Her assertion was correct though and acknoledge by Orsino himself that Anders had doomed them. The high number of blood mages, escapes, conspiracies in the circle and the refusal of the circle leader to do anything at all doomed them as much as Anders. [/quote]
By "obvious," you mean you're interjecting your opinions as fact? And by "high number," you mean your theory on the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices Hawke never actually meets? There's no facts that the Gallows had a high number of blood mages when we never met the many denizens who were part of the Kirkwall Circle. Our exposure to them was severely limited.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders is the one who blew up the Chantry, not the Circle mages of Kirkwall. Killing Circle mages for an act they are not responsible doesn't sound like justice to me, and Meredith addresses that she ordered the Right since the people "will demand blood," so it's act of giving in to the mob mentality. Of course there ends up being violence in the streets when templars are fighting mages because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment, and mages are fighting for their lives from the people who are ordered to execute them. [/quote]
It doesn't matter, Orsino as I said agrees at the time that Anders doomed them all. Mages everywhere only hope is that the mages in kirkwall could be totally irradicated and shown that the threat is totally gone. The divine is not going to say "Oh, okay it was only one mage, well in that cases go on about your business. Nor are the commoners and nobles of the area they are going to see all the people killed due to the act of a mages, see all the blood mage activity inside and outside the circle and proably want all mages offed. Do you think that in the other circles things will get better for the mages or worse? Much worse and it is an apostate mage (good reason to not allow any such thing to happen again) and a circle that was not tightly controlled. The Divine and the other circles are not going to think better of mages after this. [/quote]
There is no threat - Anders blew up the Chantry, not the Circle of Kirkwall. Instead of isolating the mages to the Gallows, Meredith ordered their execution because the people "would demand blood." She gives in to the mob, and I don't see a reason to side with her and kill people for something they are innocent of doing. I see no reason to execute countless men, women, and children because Anders - an apostate - blew up the Chantry in order to start a war between templars and mages.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That's probably because Meredith is condemning an entire population of Circle mages to death in the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches because of the actions of an apostate who is trying to start a conflict between the two sides. [/quote]
No, once again, as usual you are totally selective in your arguements. You mention only Anders when Meredith was ready to do away with mages before hand. Anders was the last straw after tons of examples of dangerous out of control mages. [/quote]
Although we know from Ser Kerras that Meredith has requested the Right of Annulment from the Divine, we have no proof either way whether there's a real problem with the Circle of Kirkwall or not. Meredith never mentions corruption when she addresses Hawke, she says that this act cannot stand and that the people will demand blood - she specifically addresses what Anders did as the reason for the Right of Annulment.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Every antagonist that we encounter in Kirkwall tries to kill Hawke, whether they are a member of the carta or one of many different criminal organizations, and we do encounter mage antagonists among these criminals who try to kill Hawke. However, blaming the Circle of Kirkwall for the actions of mages outside of the Gallows doesn't sound like an argument that should compel me to side with the templars. [/quote]
That doesn't matter a bit because at end game it is beyond the time for reason and Orsiono refuses to let Meredith search the tower. A mage is a mage is a mage and it's interesting that you are happy to toss no circle mages under the bus when convenient and yet you actually want to do away with the circle thus making all mages unregulated. [/quote]
This statement doesn't really support your argument. Orsino doesn't want to permit her to search the Gallows, and heads to Grand Cleric Elthina to resolve the dispute. Even when Orsino backs down and gives in to what Meredith demands, she refuses to revoke the Right of Annulment. Given that Meredith made it clear that she's ordered the execution of the Circle because of Anders' actions, I see no reason to support Meredith.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I believe the argument is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Our lack of knowledge about the many members of the Circle of Kirkwall doesn't allow us to form a positive or negative opinion about them, but we're provided with the Knight-Commander demanding Hawke's cooperation because an apostate killed Grand Cleric Elthina, the same apostate she'll handwave as she orders the execution of enchanters, mages, and even apprentices. [/quote]
Once again you are focusing on Anders and ignoring all that happened up until then. Heck even a mage sympathizer, thrask was killed by circle mages during the kidnapping quest. At the end point of the game, after all the problems that mages have caused and after their leader refuses to cooperate with the templars the time to play nice is over. As bat**** crazy as Meredith was she was proven totally correct when Orsino went off the deep end, even if you support him. [/quote]
Thrask was killed by Grace, and Alrik was killed by Hawke when he implied that he would rape the child Ella after making her tranquil because she wanted to tell her mother what happened to her. I don't see the point. There are good and bad people on both sides.
And there's no evidence that Meredith was correct about the Kirkwall Circle, because we're never provided an opportunity to see the many mages of the Gallows before Meredith orders the Right of Annulment is called, and then we fight waves of antagonists like we do in every other quest.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean the many mages living in the Gallows we know relatively little about because we're never afforded the opportunity to see what they are like, and the closest we get to see the Circle mage lifestyle is from the letter that Bethany writes to Hawke? And I think the argument is that the Circle mages shouldn't be held accountable for Anders' actions. [/quote]
Yup, unfortunate that the circle leader utterly refused to cooperate with the templars when there was a chance for them to be investigated. It's very unfortunate that innocent mages must die but when every seconmd mage you encouter is possessed or a blood mage and the leader is a problem then annulment is the only answer. Circumstance dictates that you can't sit down and nicey nice interview each mage by that point. Would I rather have a number of innocent mages killed or risk a bunch of mages running loose willy nilly in the country side. sorry I'll take defenseless citizens over a mage any day....just like Redcliffe. [/quote]
Aveline orders her men to protect the civilians while the templars and mages are fighting because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment. The person who is looking out for the civilians isn't Meredith or Orsino - it's the Guard-Captain Aveline.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I respectfully disagree. Meredith's reasoning is that the people will demand blood, and that isn't enough justification for me to side with Meredith against the mages. [/quote]
She had already decided she wanted to get rid of the mages that was obvious. Her assertion was correct though and acknoledge by Orsino himself that Anders had doomed them. The high number of blood mages, escapes, conspiracies in the circle and the refusal of the circle leader to do anything at all doomed them as much as Anders. [/quote]
By "obvious," you mean you're interjecting your opinions as fact? And by "high number," you mean your theory on the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices Hawke never actually meets? There's no facts that the Gallows had a high number of blood mages when we never met the many denizens who were part of the Kirkwall Circle. Our exposure to them was severely limited.
[quote]Beerfish wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders is the one who blew up the Chantry, not the Circle mages of Kirkwall. Killing Circle mages for an act they are not responsible doesn't sound like justice to me, and Meredith addresses that she ordered the Right since the people "will demand blood," so it's act of giving in to the mob mentality. Of course there ends up being violence in the streets when templars are fighting mages because Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment, and mages are fighting for their lives from the people who are ordered to execute them. [/quote]
It doesn't matter, Orsino as I said agrees at the time that Anders doomed them all. Mages everywhere only hope is that the mages in kirkwall could be totally irradicated and shown that the threat is totally gone. The divine is not going to say "Oh, okay it was only one mage, well in that cases go on about your business. Nor are the commoners and nobles of the area they are going to see all the people killed due to the act of a mages, see all the blood mage activity inside and outside the circle and proably want all mages offed. Do you think that in the other circles things will get better for the mages or worse? Much worse and it is an apostate mage (good reason to not allow any such thing to happen again) and a circle that was not tightly controlled. The Divine and the other circles are not going to think better of mages after this. [/quote]
There is no threat - Anders blew up the Chantry, not the Circle of Kirkwall. Instead of isolating the mages to the Gallows, Meredith ordered their execution because the people "would demand blood." She gives in to the mob, and I don't see a reason to side with her and kill people for something they are innocent of doing. I see no reason to execute countless men, women, and children because Anders - an apostate - blew up the Chantry in order to start a war between templars and mages.
#110
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 11:38
Dave of Canada
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I guess all the blood mages and demons I saw through all of act 3 were part of my imagination.
#111
Posté 01 mai 2011 - 11:44
LobselVith8
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Dave of Canada wrote...
I guess all the blood mages and demons I saw through all of act 3 were part of my imagination.
And how many blood mages comprised the enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Gallows? How many of the denizens of the Circle of Kirkwall did you actually meet? Did you enter the Gallows and see them living in the cells, see Bethany teaching the children, or witness blood magic being instructed to others? I don't see why we should make any positive or negative analysis of people we know so little about.
I see a great deal of speculation about what the Circle mages must be like based on the antagonists Hawke faces, but that's all. It's known that we face "waves" of enemies - with some fans being critical of how enemies appear from the ceiling and out of thin air because it breaks immersion, and how "waves" of enemies attack. Fighting mage antagonists isn't any different in this regard, and game mechanics doesn't provide us with any information about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were actually like.
#112
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:02
TJPags
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Dave of Canada wrote...
I guess all the blood mages and demons I saw through all of act 3 were part of my imagination.
And how many blood mages comprised the enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Gallows? How many of the denizens of the Circle of Kirkwall did you actually meet? Did you enter the Gallows and see them living in the cells, see Bethany teaching the children, or witness blood magic being instructed to others? I don't see why we should make any positive or negative analysis of people we know so little about.
I see a great deal of speculation about what the Circle mages must be like based on the antagonists Hawke faces, but that's all. It's known that we face "waves" of enemies - with some fans being critical of how enemies appear from the ceiling and out of thin air because it breaks immersion, and how "waves" of enemies attack. Fighting mage antagonists isn't any different in this regard, and game mechanics doesn't provide us with any information about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were actually like.
Be fair, Lob.
We do see some mages that we can positively identify as Circle Mages. Grace, without a doubt. Huon, without a doubt. Alain, though hardly what I would consider evil, is in fact a blood mage. We fight some mages who are labelled as "Circle Mage" before the end game sequence.
I know you argue that these are not necesarily representative of the Circle as a whole, and that's fine - we disagree on that, of course, but I get your argument. But we do in fact see several identifiable Circle mages who use blood magic and/or attack Hawke.
So it's a distortion to say there "the game mechanics don't provide us with any evidence" of what the Circle mages are like. There is evidence. How convincing you find it is up for debate.
#113
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:05
Dave of Canada
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LobselVith8 wrote...
And how many blood mages comprised the enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Gallows? How many of the denizens of the Circle of Kirkwall did you actually meet? Did you enter the Gallows and see them living in the cells, see Bethany teaching the children, or witness blood magic being instructed to others? I don't see why we should make any positive or negative analysis of people we know so little about.
And yet you have no evidence to the contrary, you have to use what is presented to you and what's presented is that the majority of the mages are doing desperate and blood mage things. Meredith is proven right a lot of the time in Act 3.
[pre-Chantry]
Enough Blood Mages that they've formed a gang in order to take over Hightown, they are mind controlling thralls to use in their efforts to take over.
We've got Grace and her gang (including Alain).
We've got Huon, possibly Evelina (pre-abomination?) and (maybe) Emile.
We've got the Revolutionists.
We've got the Blood Mages attacking the Champion openly in the streets (non-gang).
We've gotten hints that somebody important in the Circle was helping Quentin.
We've got Orsino openly speaking treason against Meredith, only kept in check by the Grand Cleric.
Then Anders blows up the Chantry which leads to:
Mages in the Circle summoning corpses and demons from their quarters, demons plaguing the streets, abominations running rampant and blood mages doing their blood magey things regardless of who you sided with.
Orsino turns out to be the one who helped Quentin and then he killed (or used the corpses of depending on who you sided with) other mages to turn himself into the Harvester.
These mages didn't come out of no where, they didn't materialize out of thin air and decided "rebelling is fun!". It shows that there's a problem with the Circle, and with blood magic having such a corrupting influence, cannot be ignored. How does one treat this problem? Do you wait until it gets worse (A) or treat it now and start fresh (
?Meredith's answer is B.
I agree with B.
Fighting mage antagonists isn't any different in this regard, and game mechanics doesn't provide us with any information about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were actually like.
Dismissing it because it doesn't support your argument doesn't make it any less true, you don't dismiss what you're presented and favor what is not.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 mai 2011 - 12:06 .
#114
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:15
Plaintiff
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The Right of Annulment was utterly unnecessary. Even if every single mage in the Gallows was a blood mage, blood magic is not inherently evil, nor does Orsino or any other (currently living) mage that we know of have any sort of plans to start summoning demons or turning people into abominations.
The Grand Cleric has the right to anull the circle if she rules it irredeemable. Because of her sudden death, that power defaults to Meredith, who was always an Archdemon short of a Blight and her insanity has only been further exacerbated by the influence of the lyrium idol. She is not fit to make this decision and it shows.
The fact that her suspicions turn out to be somewhat correct is irrelevent. At the time of calling for the Right, she had no evidence whatsoever and the blood mages in the Circle only reveal themselves as such in response to Meredith's cray-zay.
The Grand Cleric has the right to anull the circle if she rules it irredeemable. Because of her sudden death, that power defaults to Meredith, who was always an Archdemon short of a Blight and her insanity has only been further exacerbated by the influence of the lyrium idol. She is not fit to make this decision and it shows.
The fact that her suspicions turn out to be somewhat correct is irrelevent. At the time of calling for the Right, she had no evidence whatsoever and the blood mages in the Circle only reveal themselves as such in response to Meredith's cray-zay.
Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 mai 2011 - 12:18 .
#115
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:20
OldMan91
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False dilemma is false.These mages didn't come out of no where, they didn't materialize out of thin air and decided "rebelling is fun!". It shows that there's a problem with the Circle, and with blood magic having such a corrupting influence, cannot be ignored. How does one treat this problem? Do you wait until it gets worse (A) or treat it now and start fresh (
Meredith's answer is B.
I agree with B.
#116
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:22
Abispa
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I see blood magic as a short cut or a loaded gun. If you're raised in an environment where blood magic is studied and used properly, it could be a useful, if dangerous form of magic. If you were raised in an environment that teaches mages that they are superior and that non-mages are simply tools to be used, like Tevinter, it can be discipline easily abused. If you are raised among the Dalish or the Chantry, it is the forbidden art and only the criminals or the desperate are going to use, and the mages doing so are ill equipped to deal the demons ready to take advantage of them.
I see it like the argument over gun control. Many, like myself, will argue that gun ownership is a right that shouldn't be taken away despite the fact that so many people suffer from their misuse. Others argue very well that the many victims resulting from the misuse of firearms far and away outweighs the desires of hunters or the number of cases where guns were used successfully for self-defense.
Thus I equate, clumsily I admit, blood magic by "normal" apostates to be like rural Americans with guns, BM in Tevinter like the "Wild West," and BM in Kirkwall like so many American inner cities.
I see it like the argument over gun control. Many, like myself, will argue that gun ownership is a right that shouldn't be taken away despite the fact that so many people suffer from their misuse. Others argue very well that the many victims resulting from the misuse of firearms far and away outweighs the desires of hunters or the number of cases where guns were used successfully for self-defense.
Thus I equate, clumsily I admit, blood magic by "normal" apostates to be like rural Americans with guns, BM in Tevinter like the "Wild West," and BM in Kirkwall like so many American inner cities.
#117
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:23
TJPags
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Plaintiff wrote...
The Right of Annulment was utterly unnecessary. Even if every single mage in the Gallows was a blood mage, blood magic is not inherently evil, nor does Orsino or any other (currently living) mage that we know of have any sort of plans to start summoning demons or turning people into abominations.
The Grand Cleric has the right to anull the circle if she rules it irredeemable. Because of her sudden death, that power defaults to Meredith, who was always an Archdemon short of a Blight and her insanity has only been further exacerbated by the influence of the lyrium idol. She is not fit to make this decision and it shows.
The fact that her suspicions turn out to be somewhat correct is irrelevent. At the time of calling for the Right, she had no evidence whatsoever and the blood mages in the Circle only reveal themselves as such in response to Meredith's cray-zay.
While I personally agree with you, in the world of Thedas blood magic is outlawed. It is absolutely grounds for death, and if the Circle was overrun with blood mages, it's grounds for an Anullment.
#118
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:24
88mphSlayer
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LobselVith8 wrote...
88mphSlayer wrote...
if rogue mages from the circle were destroying the templars from the inside out long before the right of annulment is called then that's self-defense, no matter how extremist the solution may be
Yet we don't have any evidence about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices are like. Our exposure to the actual denizens of the Gallows is fairly limited to specific people, and the most exposure we have is with the First Enchanter Orsino and Bethany.88mphSlayer wrote...
and the clan attacked because Merrill basically killed Marathari with her desire to restore the mirror against wisdom and the wishes of the clan, if you were put in the shoes of the Dalish you might want to reply to that act as well, Merrill was not above the clan
Merrill was already exiled. Marethari made her own choice to become an abomination, she was an adult and acted of her own accord. The clan attempting to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if they are told that the Keeper became an abomination and forcing Hawke and Merrill to defend themselves against this assault isn't Merrill's fault.88mphSlayer wrote...
and the templars did their duty, that the circle couldn't handle any unforeseen threats to their establishment is the circle's problem, that it spun so out of control as to corrupt both sides means there's no morally superior choice
Meredith makes it clear that her invoking the Right of Annulment has to do with Anders' attack on the Kirkwall Chantry. She makes it explicitly clear when she says how the Champion must admit that this attack "cannot be tolerated" and says, after Anders' explanation for why he blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, that she couldn't stop the Right because "the people will demand blood."
i'm not about to make a moral judgment or decision based on evidence that simply doesn't exist, everything we've been exposed to in Kirkwall indicates that the circle cannot control its own mages for years, mages are escaping constantly and Orsino's practice of actively protecting blood mages yet never doing anything to curb their violence is disgusting, i get the impression Orsino is more focused on protecting apostates than guiding mages, he's an idealist not a leader, and would rather sacrifice the circle for the sake of ideals than surrender to the Templars when lives were on the line
Merrill was exiled of her own free will, she only truly becomes exiled after Marethari dies and you promise the responsibility of keeping Merrill from endangering the clan ever again (this is a path for not slaughtering the dalish clan)... Marethari become an abomination to protect Merrill from becoming an abomination, Merrill was always woefully naive and both ignorant and arrogant about her own abilities, if actions speak louder than words then Merrill not having the willpower to turn down demons in the fade is loud enough... she would've become an abomination, a very dangerous one at that that was never interested in reviving history
and yes it is Merrill's fault for pursuing the demon, and it's spelled out that the dalish clan felt endangered and they've run out of options for dealing with her (but are open to compromise if you pursue it)
and invoking the Right of Annulment comes after over a decade of internal strife, the chantry being blown up by an apostate was the final straw
i still fail to see how Merrill's life is more morally important than that of the entire dalish clan, and similarly how 300 circle mages are more important than all of Kirkwall, when the Qunari lashed out certainly nobody has any qualms with ending that threat, no? the Qunari were not more important than everybody else Tome of Koslun be damned, and same goes for mages pursuing freedom just to use blood magic
Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 02 mai 2011 - 12:42 .
#119
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:27
OldMan91
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It's a decent analogy, with one major difference being the scope of what blood magic can do. Guns, well, you can only use them one way. Or several if you're creative enough. Blood magic can do a great deal of things, from mind control to Old God Baby rituals. Not that i'm against Blood Magic or anything, but I do admit that it can be "abused" for a variety of purposes. That's why I believe it should be regulated heavily by the national government, and not a transnational organization like the Chantry.Abispa wrote...
I see it like the argument over gun control. Many, like myself, will argue that gun ownership is a right that shouldn't be taken away despite the fact that so many people suffer from their misuse. Others argue very well that the many victims resulting from the misuse of firearms far and away outweighs the desires of hunters or the number of cases where guns were used successfully for self-defense.
Thus I equate, clumsily I admit, blood magic by "normal" apostates to be like rural Americans with guns, BM in Tevinter like the "Wild West," and BM in Kirkwall like so many American inner cities.
#120
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:29
Dave of Canada
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OldMan91 wrote...
False dilemma is false.
Thanks for informing me, you've aided a great deal.
#121
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:33
OldMan91
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No problem. If you believe that you've run into any more logical fallacies, be sure to call me. I'm available from 10 to 6, week days and saturdays.Dave of Canada wrote...
OldMan91 wrote...
False dilemma is false.
Thanks for informing me, you've aided a great deal.
Modifié par OldMan91, 02 mai 2011 - 12:34 .
#122
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:34
Plaintiff
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Yes, but in the world of Thedas, individuals are still capable of examining law from a critical standpoint and deciding for themselves what they do or don't agree with. I'm not disputing that Meredith was acting within the law, but if my Hawke thinks the law is wrong, then he has no reason to abide by it except self-preservation which, in the face of wholesale slaughter, isn't really good enough.TJPags wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
The Right of Annulment was utterly unnecessary. Even if every single mage in the Gallows was a blood mage, blood magic is not inherently evil, nor does Orsino or any other (currently living) mage that we know of have any sort of plans to start summoning demons or turning people into abominations.
The Grand Cleric has the right to anull the circle if she rules it irredeemable. Because of her sudden death, that power defaults to Meredith, who was always an Archdemon short of a Blight and her insanity has only been further exacerbated by the influence of the lyrium idol. She is not fit to make this decision and it shows.
The fact that her suspicions turn out to be somewhat correct is irrelevent. At the time of calling for the Right, she had no evidence whatsoever and the blood mages in the Circle only reveal themselves as such in response to Meredith's cray-zay.
While I personally agree with you, in the world of Thedas blood magic is outlawed. It is absolutely grounds for death, and if the Circle was overrun with blood mages, it's grounds for an Anullment.
#123
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:38
Urazz
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Not all the demons are summoned by mages though. Some are summoned by mages unwittingly because they aren't fully trained (Thrask's daughter is a prime example of an untrained mage being susceptible to demons). Others are being able to get through due to the fade most likely being torn open because the veil is thin and alot of magic is being casted to cause it to be torn.Dave of Canada wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Easily attributable to the demons popping in through the Veil of their own accord, thanks to the Meredith-started slaughter.
Right.
The demons that are being summoned by mages are the templar's fault.
Let's just ignore all the blood mages that Meredith assumed (correctly) were in the Circle.
#124
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:41
TJPags
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Plaintiff wrote...
Yes, but in the world of Thedas, individuals are still capable of examining law from a critical standpoint and deciding for themselves what they do or don't agree with. I'm not disputing that Meredith was acting within the law, but if my Hawke thinks the law is wrong, then he has no reason to abide by it except self-preservation which, in the face of wholesale slaughter, isn't really good enough.TJPags wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
The Right of Annulment was utterly unnecessary. Even if every single mage in the Gallows was a blood mage, blood magic is not inherently evil, nor does Orsino or any other (currently living) mage that we know of have any sort of plans to start summoning demons or turning people into abominations.
The Grand Cleric has the right to anull the circle if she rules it irredeemable. Because of her sudden death, that power defaults to Meredith, who was always an Archdemon short of a Blight and her insanity has only been further exacerbated by the influence of the lyrium idol. She is not fit to make this decision and it shows.
The fact that her suspicions turn out to be somewhat correct is irrelevent. At the time of calling for the Right, she had no evidence whatsoever and the blood mages in the Circle only reveal themselves as such in response to Meredith's cray-zay.
While I personally agree with you, in the world of Thedas blood magic is outlawed. It is absolutely grounds for death, and if the Circle was overrun with blood mages, it's grounds for an Anullment.
Sorry, this I have to disagree with.
A person who disagrees with the law has every right to argue for and lobby for a change and attempt to bring about a change. But they're still bound to obey that law until it changes.
As example, in the county I live, I'm allowed to make a right turn after stopping at a red light, while the light is still red. In the City next to my county, I can't. I think I should be able to, and would love to be able to, but unless they change that law, I have to wait until the light turns green.
#125
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 12:47
LobselVith8
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[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
And yet you have no evidence to the contrary, you have to use what is presented to you and what's presented is that the majority of the mages are doing desperate and blood mage things. Meredith is proven right a lot of the time in Act 3. [/quote]
We see mages outside of the Gallows doing this, though. Even the mages you attribute with Grace's group are labelled apostates when Hawke confronts her, after she's killed Ser Thrask.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[pre-Chantry]
Enough Blood Mages that they've formed a gang in order to take over Hightown, they are mind controlling thralls to use in their efforts to take over. [/quote]
Yet that doesn't mean that the mages outside of the Gallows reflect what the enchanters, mages, and apprentices inside of the Gallows are like.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Grace and her gang (including Alain). [/quote]
Grace and her group are working with renegade templars, and Hawke is killing his way through his group to reach Ser Thrask and Grace. Besides Alain and the other mages cowering at the end, we have nothing that indicates there are any other mage and templar renegades on the loose.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Huon, possibly Evelina (pre-abomination?) and (maybe) Emile. [/quote]
There's no evidence Evelina or Emile are blood mages, particularly when Emile does nothing when he thinks Hawke is going to kill him.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got the Revolutionists. [/quote]
You seem to be providing a group of mages who have no known ties to the actual Kirkwall Circle. Besides trying to murder Hawke in "Faith," we don't really see them again, nor do we have no evidence to show any of them had been members of the Kirkwall Circle. I feel like you're pushing criminal mages forward and addressing countless men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle in league with them when there's no evidence to support such an accusation.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got the Blood Mages attacking the Champion openly in the streets (non-gang). [/quote]
Again, mages outside of the Gallows.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've gotten hints that somebody important in the Circle was helping Quentin. [/quote]
That person is Orsino.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Orsino openly speaking treason against Meredith, only kept in check by the Grand Cleric. [/quote]
Orsino is speaking out against Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall, and overstepping her authority by becoming the dictator of the city-state.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
Then Anders blows up the Chantry which leads to:
Mages in the Circle summoning corpses and demons from their quarters, demons plaguing the streets, abominations running rampant and blood mages doing their blood magey things regardless of who you sided with. [/quote]
Again, you seem to be conflating the mage antagonists we face with the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices we never get to know as Hawke.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
Orsino turns out to be the one who helped Quentin and then he killed (or used the corpses of depending on who you sided with) other mages to turn himself into the Harvester. [/quote]
And Orsino is one man, and should be blamed for what he's done.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
These mages didn't come out of no where, they didn't materialize out of thin air and decided "rebelling is fun!". It shows that there's a problem with the Circle, and with blood magic having such a corrupting influence, cannot be ignored. How does one treat this problem? Do you wait until it gets worse (A) or treat it now and start fresh (?
Meredith's answer is B.
I agree with B. [/quote]
You're welcome to agree with B, but I see no reason to kill Circle mages for an act Anders committed, particularly when we lack evidence and you seem to be attributing the actions of mage antagonists with the entire Circle of Kirkwall.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Fighting mage antagonists isn't any different in this regard, and game mechanics doesn't provide us with any information about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were actually like.[/quote]
Dismissing it because it doesn't support your argument doesn't make it any less true, you don't dismiss what you're presented and favor what is not. [/quote]
You seem to be dismissing the fact that you've addressed a number of apostates and maleficarum and lumped them with the Circle of Kirkwall. What I've done is address is that we can't be certain that the game mechanics of "waves" of enemies provides us with specific information when we almost always deal with waves of enemies. Using that logic, there are more criminals in Kirkwall than civilians.
And yet you have no evidence to the contrary, you have to use what is presented to you and what's presented is that the majority of the mages are doing desperate and blood mage things. Meredith is proven right a lot of the time in Act 3. [/quote]
We see mages outside of the Gallows doing this, though. Even the mages you attribute with Grace's group are labelled apostates when Hawke confronts her, after she's killed Ser Thrask.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[pre-Chantry]
Enough Blood Mages that they've formed a gang in order to take over Hightown, they are mind controlling thralls to use in their efforts to take over. [/quote]
Yet that doesn't mean that the mages outside of the Gallows reflect what the enchanters, mages, and apprentices inside of the Gallows are like.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Grace and her gang (including Alain). [/quote]
Grace and her group are working with renegade templars, and Hawke is killing his way through his group to reach Ser Thrask and Grace. Besides Alain and the other mages cowering at the end, we have nothing that indicates there are any other mage and templar renegades on the loose.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Huon, possibly Evelina (pre-abomination?) and (maybe) Emile. [/quote]
There's no evidence Evelina or Emile are blood mages, particularly when Emile does nothing when he thinks Hawke is going to kill him.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got the Revolutionists. [/quote]
You seem to be providing a group of mages who have no known ties to the actual Kirkwall Circle. Besides trying to murder Hawke in "Faith," we don't really see them again, nor do we have no evidence to show any of them had been members of the Kirkwall Circle. I feel like you're pushing criminal mages forward and addressing countless men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle in league with them when there's no evidence to support such an accusation.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got the Blood Mages attacking the Champion openly in the streets (non-gang). [/quote]
Again, mages outside of the Gallows.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've gotten hints that somebody important in the Circle was helping Quentin. [/quote]
That person is Orsino.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
We've got Orsino openly speaking treason against Meredith, only kept in check by the Grand Cleric. [/quote]
Orsino is speaking out against Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall, and overstepping her authority by becoming the dictator of the city-state.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
Then Anders blows up the Chantry which leads to:
Mages in the Circle summoning corpses and demons from their quarters, demons plaguing the streets, abominations running rampant and blood mages doing their blood magey things regardless of who you sided with. [/quote]
Again, you seem to be conflating the mage antagonists we face with the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices we never get to know as Hawke.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
Orsino turns out to be the one who helped Quentin and then he killed (or used the corpses of depending on who you sided with) other mages to turn himself into the Harvester. [/quote]
And Orsino is one man, and should be blamed for what he's done.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
These mages didn't come out of no where, they didn't materialize out of thin air and decided "rebelling is fun!". It shows that there's a problem with the Circle, and with blood magic having such a corrupting influence, cannot be ignored. How does one treat this problem? Do you wait until it gets worse (A) or treat it now and start fresh (
?Meredith's answer is B.
I agree with B. [/quote]
You're welcome to agree with B, but I see no reason to kill Circle mages for an act Anders committed, particularly when we lack evidence and you seem to be attributing the actions of mage antagonists with the entire Circle of Kirkwall.
[quote]Dave of Canada wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Fighting mage antagonists isn't any different in this regard, and game mechanics doesn't provide us with any information about what the many enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall were actually like.[/quote]
Dismissing it because it doesn't support your argument doesn't make it any less true, you don't dismiss what you're presented and favor what is not. [/quote]
You seem to be dismissing the fact that you've addressed a number of apostates and maleficarum and lumped them with the Circle of Kirkwall. What I've done is address is that we can't be certain that the game mechanics of "waves" of enemies provides us with specific information when we almost always deal with waves of enemies. Using that logic, there are more criminals in Kirkwall than civilians.
