arcelonious wrote...
*snip for length*
As it is now, you never feel the gravity of the Rite of Annulment because you don't really experience the negatives of each outcome.
Because it takes extreme self-control for evena childless mage to be able to control his powers, and resist temptation. If you add in anyhting he is willing to give his own life to save into the mix, all that self-control matters not.DKJaigen wrote...
Why dont you explain that emperor
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages are allowed to wed and love.... They aren't allowed to keep any child concieved, which is arguably for the best.
Are they or are they not allowed?LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages are allowed to wed and love.... They aren't allowed to keep any child concieved, which is arguably for the best.
David Gaider addressed that only some Circles permit mages to have relationships and marry.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages are allowed to wed and love.... They aren't allowed to keep any child concieved, which is arguably for the best.
David Gaider addressed that only some Circles permit mages to have relationships and marry.
Are they or are they not allowed?
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because it takes extreme self-control for evena childless mage to be able to control his powers, and resist temptation. If you add in anyhting he is willing to give his own life to save into the mix, all that self-control matters not.DKJaigen wrote...
Why dont you explain that emperor
A child of a mage would be the easiest point of acces to a mage for a demon. Child falls ill, bam demons offers their aid. Child gets picked on in school, bam demons offer aid. Child is dead, bam demons offer aid. Child has gone missing, yet again.. demons. Mages as they are a dangerous enough. There is no reason to give the demons even more tools to tempt the mages.
How many parents out there wouldn't literally do anyhting to save their child? The amount a of "anything" a mage parent can do, is proportionally larger than a normal parent.
Beerfish wrote...
DKJaigen wrote...
Beerfish wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
TJPags wrote...
There are bad Templars. I've never argued otherwise. Now, I can point out that the way you lay out the Karras issue is one of several outcomes, which precludes the next Karras revenge situation you indicate. But we've been through this.
My sole point posting that - as Lob and I have also argued this issue many times - was to indicate that there is solid, concrete evidence of Circle Mages using blood magic and otherwise breaking the law. To say otherwise is misleading.
And my sole point is, if you're going to condemn the whole for the few that Hawke encounters, the templars need to be annuled as well.
Again.....templars vs the mages with the HUGE majority of the people affected having nothing to do with the situation. The templars though nasty in this game have shown no real bent for killing innocents on purpose or otherwise. Mages on the other hand can due massive damage with just one of them, even totally unintentional. One lone mage is far more dangerous than one lone templar. In the end it is this faceless majority that will decdie the fate of the mages and the templars.
Perhaps you have not realised that while mage is indeed more dangerous is that templars can get away with most of their crimes with a thin veneer of piety and say its the makers will. In my opnion thats not justice. Im still against killing anyone for the sake of one madwoman or the actions of one person.
Oh of course they can and there are parts in the games that they do just that. That doesn't change my previous statement. One lone mage can do far more damage than one templar and further to that the mage doesn't even have to be a bad guy to do so.
Wrong question you answered.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages are allowed to wed and love.... They aren't allowed to keep any child concieved, which is arguably for the best.
David Gaider addressed that only some Circles permit mages to have relationships and marry.
Are they or are they not allowed?
The Circle mages are never allowed to keep their own children. Only Grey Wardens are exempt from that rule, because the mages in the order aren't under Chantry rule.
Who was trying to be funny? If you can't grasp the dangers magic and demons pose, you shouldn't even be in these threads.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Because it takes extreme self-control for evena childless mage to be able to control his powers, and resist temptation. If you add in anyhting he is willing to give his own life to save into the mix, all that self-control matters not.DKJaigen wrote...
Why dont you explain that emperor
A child of a mage would be the easiest point of acces to a mage for a demon. Child falls ill, bam demons offers their aid. Child gets picked on in school, bam demons offer aid. Child is dead, bam demons offer aid. Child has gone missing, yet again.. demons. Mages as they are a dangerous enough. There is no reason to give the demons even more tools to tempt the mages.
How many parents out there wouldn't literally do anyhting to save their child? The amount a of "anything" a mage parent can do, is proportionally larger than a normal parent.
lol what bunch of ****. Their are so many what if;s in this its not even funny
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The Circle mages are never allowed to keep their own children. Only Grey Wardens are exempt from that rule, because the mages in the order aren't under Chantry rule.
Wrong question you answered.
Are they, or are they not allowed to marry?
But the very fact that some mages ARE allowed, also means that the right to love and marry are NOT taken away from mages. Some mages are even allowed to move outside the Circle and actually start a family.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The Circle mages are never allowed to keep their own children. Only Grey Wardens are exempt from that rule, because the mages in the order aren't under Chantry rule.
Wrong question you answered.
Are they, or are they not allowed to marry?
Some Circles of Magi allow mages to marry, while other Circles forbid relationships and marriage for mages. Even in the Circles that permit mages to marry, they still need to obtain permission to get married. The right for some mages in some Circles to get married is not a universal standard that's true for all Circles of Magi or all mages of the Circle.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But the very fact that some mages ARE allowed, also means that the right to love and marry are NOT taken away from mages. Some mages are even allowed to move outside the Circle and actually start a family.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Who was trying to be funny? If you can't grasp the dangers magic and demons pose, you shouldn't even be in these threads.
Chances are that it is the First Enchanter and not the Knight-Commander who permits marriage, since it is the First Enchanters who mangages the Circles. And in many places marriage is a priviledge.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
But the very fact that some mages ARE allowed, also means that the right to love and marry are NOT taken away from mages. Some mages are even allowed to move outside the Circle and actually start a family.
That is wrong. Because all mages are not allowed to marry, they generally do NOT have that right. It is instead a priveledge doled out by the local Knight Commander.
As for starting a family, that is forbidden. Only Grey Warden Mages are allowed to have children per DG because Grey Warden mages are outside chantry justidiction. The only exception to that was Wilhelm of Honnleth who was a Hero of Fereldan (and the Revolution) and a very close friend of the Arl of Redcliff and King of Fereldan...and even THEN it wasn't a right but a closely supervised priveledge (monitered by First Enchanter Arlen).
-Polaris
Stress is a factor indeed in possession. Children are however not often possessed. Probably because they aren't as savory a target (or because of game mechanics) for the demons. Just look at Thrask's daughter, a single moment of extreme duress and she was possessed.DKJaigen wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Who was trying to be funny? If you can't grasp the dangers magic and demons pose, you shouldn't even be in these threads.
By your own definitons child mages should not ber taken to the circles because that causes stress. And according to your insane logic this automaticly causes possesion. Seriously WTF dude.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Some Circles of Magi allow mages to marry, while other Circles forbid relationships and marriage for mages. Even in the Circles that permit mages to marry, they still need to obtain permission to get married. The right for some mages in some Circles to get married is not a universal standard that's true for all Circles of Magi or all mages of the Circle.
But the very fact that some mages ARE allowed, also means that the right to love and marry are NOT taken away from mages. Some mages are even allowed to move outside the Circle and actually start a family.
David Gaider wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.
Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?
A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Chances are that it is the First Enchanter and not the Knight-Commander who permits marriage, since it is the First Enchanters who mangages the Circles.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And in many places marriage is a priviledge.
And answer me this. Yes or no. DOn't try to squirm out, or talk your ass off on some irrelevant tangent. Was Wilhelm allowed to raise his own family? Yes or no.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Stress is a factor indeed in possession. Children are however not often possessed. Probably because they aren't as savory a target (or because of game mechanics) for the demons. Just look at Thrask's daughter, a single moment of extreme duress and she was possessed.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
On another note: Children are often scorned by their families when they are discovered to be mages, so being sent to the tower is a relief. Further more, if the child is clsoe to their parents, further contact isn't disallowed. They just won't be going home for dinner anymore (or at least not very often).
Wilhelm was a Circle mage. He was allwoed to raise his own family, and even move out of the Circle. No doubt the children are usually taken, but nevertheless, special cases are made. So not all mages' children are taken from them.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Some Circles of Magi allow mages to marry, while other Circles forbid relationships and marriage for mages. Even in the Circles that permit mages to marry, they still need to obtain permission to get married. The right for some mages in some Circles to get married is not a universal standard that's true for all Circles of Magi or all mages of the Circle.
But the very fact that some mages ARE allowed, also means that the right to love and marry are NOT taken away from mages. Some mages are even allowed to move outside the Circle and actually start a family.
Some mages have the right to marry, and others don't have the right to have relationships. Regardless, mages from the Circle of Magi aren't permitted to raise their own children and start a family. David Gaider addressed this when he spoke about mages and children, as only Grey Warden mages are exempt from this rule:David Gaider wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.
Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?
A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wilhelm was a Circle mage. He was allwoed to raise his own family, and even move out of the Circle. No doubt the children are usually taken, but nevertheless, special cases are made. So not all mages' children are taken from them.
David Gaider already adressed this. A First Enchanter decides wether a Circle will participate in awar. The Knight-Commander decides how many mages will.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Chances are that it is the First Enchanter and not the Knight-Commander who permits marriage, since it is the First Enchanters who mangages the Circles.
That must explain why it was Greagoir who denied the King's request for more mages to be stationed at Ostagar.
Yes or no. Was Wilhelm allowed to raise his own family?LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And in many places marriage is a priviledge.
And answer me this. Yes or no. DOn't try to squirm out, or talk your ass off on some irrelevant tangent. Was Wilhelm allowed to raise his own family? Yes or no.
You mean the war hero Wilheim, who helped the Rebel Queen Moira and Maric the Savior in overthrowing the Orlesian occupation (with Shale, no less)? It's clear that he had a royal boon since he's married with a family, when Gaider has made it clear that no Circle mage is permitted to keep their child.
And that speaks volumes of the discipline required of mages. And not much else.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Stress is a factor indeed in possession. Children are however not often possessed. Probably because they aren't as savory a target (or because of game mechanics) for the demons. Just look at Thrask's daughter, a single moment of extreme duress and she was possessed.
Yet we see mages dealing with stress and not turning into abominations. Bethany is stressed all the time, for example, and she never succumbs. Neither does Merrill. Alain is getting raped by templars and he never once succumbs to becoming an abomination.
You know what she could ahve done. Send a letter. That would ahve been allwoed, legal, and not at all punishable. Instead the fool girl decided to break the law and try and escape.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
On another note: Children are often scorned by their families when they are discovered to be mages, so being sent to the tower is a relief. Further more, if the child is clsoe to their parents, further contact isn't disallowed. They just won't be going home for dinner anymore (or at least not very often).
Ella would disagree, as she tried to leave the Gallows to let her mother know she was taken away by the templars.
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 mai 2011 - 05:10 .
I take it you in your eternal wisdom knows of all mages in all of existance, and that is why you can make a claim like that. You know nothing of wether Wilhelm was a special case or not. However if he wasn't, it would greatly detract from your negative view of the Chantry, which is why you immediately presumes he was a singular case. I on the other hand, have always had a more favorable view of the Chantry, and presume that the Chantry actually rewards the faithful. Even mages.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wilhelm was a Circle mage. He was allwoed to raise his own family, and even move out of the Circle. No doubt the children are usually taken, but nevertheless, special cases are made. So not all mages' children are taken from them.
Wilhelm was a singular case, a war hero of Ferelden with exceedingly rarified connections, and even then it was clear (read the letter from Arlen) that much of it was done 'on the sly'.
Wilhelm was given an extraordinary priveledge (not a right) in recognition of extraordinary service and as such, is an invalid case for proving a general point.
-Polaris
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You know what she could ahve done. Send a letter. That would ahve been allwoed, legal, and not at all punishable. Instead the fool girl decided to break the law and try and escape.
You know what happens when you get caught breaking the law? You get punished. Ella was unlucky it was the creep Alrik who caught her. But any Templar would have brought her back to the Circle.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I take it you in your eternal wisdom knows of all mages in all of existance, and that is why you can make a claim like that. You know nothing of wether Wilhelm was a special case or not. However if he wasn't, it would greatly detract from your negative view of the Chantry, which is why you immediately presumes he was a singular case. I on the other hand, have always had a more favorable view of the Chantry, and presume that the Chantry actually rewards the faithful. Even mages.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wilhelm was a Circle mage. He was allwoed to raise his own family, and even move out of the Circle. No doubt the children are usually taken, but nevertheless, special cases are made. So not all mages' children are taken from them.
Wilhelm was a singular case, a war hero of Ferelden with exceedingly rarified connections, and even then it was clear (read the letter from Arlen) that much of it was done 'on the sly'.
Wilhelm was given an extraordinary priveledge (not a right) in recognition of extraordinary service and as such, is an invalid case for proving a general point.
-Polaris
In other words: It IS allowed in some cases.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I take it you in your eternal wisdom knows of all mages in all of existance, and that is why you can make a claim like that. You know nothing of wether Wilhelm was a special case or not. However if he wasn't, it would greatly detract from your negative view of the Chantry, which is why you immediately presumes he was a singular case. I on the other hand, have always had a more favorable view of the Chantry, and presume that the Chantry actually rewards the faithful. Even mages.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wilhelm was a Circle mage. He was allwoed to raise his own family, and even move out of the Circle. No doubt the children are usually taken, but nevertheless, special cases are made. So not all mages' children are taken from them.
Wilhelm was a singular case, a war hero of Ferelden with exceedingly rarified connections, and even then it was clear (read the letter from Arlen) that much of it was done 'on the sly'.
Wilhelm was given an extraordinary priveledge (not a right) in recognition of extraordinary service and as such, is an invalid case for proving a general point.
-Polaris
I do know this for a fact because it's addressed in the books and we have DG's Word-Of-God for the rules regarding circle mages in this regard. David Gaider in WoG mode is very clear: Circle Mages are NOT permitted to have and raise children. Period.
Wilhelm was a war hero (read the books) and thus given extraordinary priveledge.
-Polaris
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
In other words: It IS allowed in some cases.
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