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[IanPolaris]

Merela wrote...

Do we only know how the mails between Karl and Anders have been discovered by the Templars? Didn't Anders speak about a servant who played the courrier for them? Maybe she was caught, or she gave them up...we cannot know after all.

Karl tells you when he is briefly untranquiled.  The Templars read his mail which is unheard of in the Fereldan circle apparently.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why it was Greagoir who denied the King's request for more mages to be stationed at Ostagar.

David Gaider already adressed this. A First Enchanter decides wether a Circle will participate in awar. The Knight-Commander decides how many mages will.
And what in flying hell does this have to do with marriage between mages?

It has to do with the authority and power the Knight-Commanders have in the Circles of Magi, which we see from Greagoir signing the Rite of Tranquility on Jowan despite First Enchanter Irving stating that it wouldn't happen if it were up to him.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the war hero Wilheim, who helped the Rebel Queen Moira and Maric the Savior in overthrowing the Orlesian occupation (with Shale, no less)? It's clear that he had a royal boon since he's married with a family, when Gaider has made it clear that no Circle mage is permitted to keep their child.

Yes or no. Was Wilhelm allowed to raise his own family?

Wilheim was a war hero of the Orlesian occupation. Since Gaider has already provided WoG on how the children of Circle mages are taken by the Chantry, I don't see why you keep persist in asking this question when we were already told what happens to the children of Circle mages, which means they can't have families.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet we see mages dealing with stress and not turning into abominations. Bethany is stressed all the time, for example, and she never succumbs. Neither does Merrill. Alain is getting raped by templars and he never once succumbs to becoming an abomination.

And that speaks volumes of the discipline required of mages. And not much else.
Or are you saying that emotional disstress is not a factor?

So doesn't that mean that imprisoning mages in an enviornment where members of a religious order that preaches how mages are cursed and responsible for their version of "original sin" would cause stress for mages?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ella would disagree, as she tried to leave the Gallows to let her mother know she was taken away by the templars.

You know what she could ahve done. Send a letter. That would ahve been allwoed, legal, and not at all punishable. Instead the fool girl decided to break the law and try and escape.
You know what happens when you get caught breaking the law? You get punished. Ella was unlucky it was the creep Alrik who caught her. But any Templar would have brought her back to the Circle.

You make it sound like Ella could have easily written a letter to her mother when we know from Karl that he had to use covert means simply to communicate with Anders, a member of the Grey Wardens. The reason Anders left the order was because of the horrors Karl was telling him about life in the Gallows.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

As i said emperor you contadict yourself on so many levels its not even funny. or do you not think that being locked up into a circle told you a cursed and will not see your parent for while or not ever again is not stressful. if not i will consider you even more awesome then chuck noris.

They don't tell the mages they are cursed. I know a lot of pro-mage guys try to make the Chantry sound like they do, but that is blatantly incorrect. True, some elements within the Chantry views magic as nothing but a curse, but the general view of the Chantry is that magic is a dangerous tool, a great gift and a dangerous curse (in a sense they are also correct in this).
Of course it is stressful. Being an untrained apostate is also stressful. Which is preferable?
A lot of parents scorn their child the second they discover their child is a mage. Where would you prefer to go? Stay an orphan, with abilities you cannot even begin to fathom, or go to a school where everyone is just like you, and be taught to control those abilities?
And I havn't said that stress equals instant possession. I say that stress is a factor in possession.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you in your eternal wisdom knows of all mages in all of existance, and that is why you can make a claim like that. You know nothing of wether Wilhelm was a special case or not. However if he wasn't, it would greatly detract from your negative view of the Chantry, which is why you immediately presumes he was a singular case. I on the other hand, have always had a more favorable view of the Chantry, and presume that the Chantry actually rewards the faithful. Even mages.

You don't need to take Ian's word for Wilheim. Read David Gaider's words on what happens to children of Circle mages:

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

The only exception Gaider mentioned are Grey Warden mages, who aren't members of the Circle of Magi and are not governed by the Chantry of Andraste.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ella would disagree, as she tried to leave the Gallows to let her mother know she was taken away by the templars.

You know what she could ahve done. Send a letter. That would ahve been allwoed, legal, and not at all punishable. Instead the fool girl decided to break the law and try and escape.
You know what happens when you get caught breaking the law? You get punished. Ella was unlucky it was the creep Alrik who caught her. But any Templar would have brought her back to the Circle.

You make it sound like Ella could have easily written a letter to her mother when we know from Karl that he had to use covert means simply to communicate with Anders, a member of the Grey Wardens. The reason Anders left the order was because of the horrors Karl was telling him about life in the Gallows.

Unless Ella was planning with her mother to blow up a Chantry , I fail to see why she would be bothered by that.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I take it you in your eternal wisdom knows of all mages in all of existance, and that is why you can make a claim like that. You know nothing of wether Wilhelm was a special case or not. However if he wasn't, it would greatly detract from your negative view of the Chantry, which is why you immediately presumes he was a singular case. I on the other hand, have always had a more favorable view of the Chantry, and presume that the Chantry actually rewards the faithful. Even mages.

You don't need to take Ian's word for Wilheim. Read David Gaider's words on what happens to children of Circle mages:

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

The only exception Gaider mentioned are Grey Warden mages, who aren't members of the Circle of Magi and are not governed by the Chantry of Andraste.

The Only exceptions are Grey Wardens... And Wilhelm... A Circle mage... With a family.... Circle mages can apparently earn the right to a family.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

As i said emperor you contadict yourself on so many levels its not even funny. or do you not think that being locked up into a circle told you a cursed and will not see your parent for while or not ever again is not stressful. if not i will consider you even more awesome then chuck noris.

They don't tell the mages they are cursed. I know a lot of pro-mage guys try to make the Chantry sound like they do, but that is blatantly incorrect. True, some elements within the Chantry views magic as nothing but a curse, but the general view of the Chantry is that magic is a dangerous tool, a great gift and a dangerous curse (in a sense they are also correct in this).
Of course it is stressful. Being an untrained apostate is also stressful. Which is preferable?
A lot of parents scorn their child the second they discover their child is a mage. Where would you prefer to go? Stay an orphan, with abilities you cannot even begin to fathom, or go to a school where everyone is just like you, and be taught to control those abilities?
And I havn't said that stress equals instant possession. I say that stress is a factor in possession.

lololol emperorepicfail. You say that parent scorn their mage childeren. Why is that ? i think it has something to with a certain religious institution that says they are cursed. No bucko some templars and priest may have more open mind about magic but most of the chantry sees magic as a curse.

P.S. we already established that its compeletly normal mages to have kids. by your damn admission no less.

[IanPolaris]

Emperer,

I know you've been in the service. Ever hear of something called a WAIVER?!? A waiver doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. It means that in this particular case the rule is being overlooked or overridden.

Wilhelm is a SPECIAL CASE and has a WAIVER from the Knight Commander.

-Polaris

Edit:  There is no procedure or rule that permits circle mages to raise families.  None.  Wilhelm was given a special priledge by the Fereldan Templars in recognition of service.  This is what the military calls a WAIVER.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 02 mai 2011 - 05:44 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You make it sound like Ella could have easily written a letter to her mother when we know from Karl that he had to use covert means simply to communicate with Anders, a member of the Grey Wardens. The reason Anders left the order was because of the horrors Karl was telling him about life in the Gallows.

Unless Ella was planning with her mother to blow up a Chantry , I fail to see why she would be bothered by that.

There's no evidence Karl planned anything of the kind, and he was bothered by what was going on in the Gallows to the point that he wrote letters to Anders to inform him about what the Knight-Commander was doing. Ella only wanted to let her mother know that she was taken by the templars, and I doubt any parent would blame a child for not wanting their parent to worry about what happened to them if they simply disappeared one day.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Only exceptions are Grey Wardens... And Wilhelm... A Circle mage... With a family.... Circle mages can apparently earn the right to a family.

Every time you make that statement, you openly contradict what David Gaider explicitly stated about Circle mages losing their children to the Chantry.

You have no evidence that Wilheim is still a member of the Circle of Ferelden, and Gaider has made it clear that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, with the only exception to this rule being the Grey Wardens, who are no longer governed by the Chantry and aren't part of the Circle anymore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emperer,

I know you've been in the service. Ever hear of something called a WAIVER?!? A waiver doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. It means that in this particular case the rule is being overlooked or overridden.

Wilhelm is a SPECIAL CASE and has a WAIVER from the Knight Commander.

-Polaris

Edit:  There is no procedure or rule that permits circle mages to raise families.  None.  Wilhelm was given a special priledge by the Fereldan Templars in recognition of service.  This is what the military calls a WAIVER.

I know he is a special case. I am arguing he isn't a unique case.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You make it sound like Ella could have easily written a letter to her mother when we know from Karl that he had to use covert means simply to communicate with Anders, a member of the Grey Wardens. The reason Anders left the order was because of the horrors Karl was telling him about life in the Gallows.

Unless Ella was planning with her mother to blow up a Chantry , I fail to see why she would be bothered by that.

There's no evidence Karl planned anything of the kind, and he was bothered by what was going on in the Gallows to the point that he wrote letters to Anders to inform him about what the Knight-Commander was doing. Ella only wanted to let her mother know that she was taken by the templars, and I doubt any parent would blame a child for not wanting their parent to worry about what happened to them if they simply disappeared one day.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Only exceptions are Grey Wardens... And Wilhelm... A Circle mage... With a family.... Circle mages can apparently earn the right to a family.

Every time you make that statement, you openly contradict what David Gaider explicitly stated about Circle mages losing their children to the Chantry.

You have no evidence that Wilheim is still a member of the Circle of Ferelden, and Gaider has made it clear that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, with the only exception to this rule being the Grey Wardens, who are no longer governed by the Chantry and aren't part of the Circle anymore.

True. I am basing the assumption of Wilhelm being a Circle mage on the fact he was still in correspondence with the First Enchanter of Ferelden. I am just basing my faith on the intergrity of a First Enchanter (I guess DA2 should have taught me otherwise).

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

As i said emperor you contadict yourself on so many levels its not even funny. or do you not think that being locked up into a circle told you a cursed and will not see your parent for while or not ever again is not stressful. if not i will consider you even more awesome then chuck noris.

They don't tell the mages they are cursed. I know a lot of pro-mage guys try to make the Chantry sound like they do, but that is blatantly incorrect. True, some elements within the Chantry views magic as nothing but a curse, but the general view of the Chantry is that magic is a dangerous tool, a great gift and a dangerous curse (in a sense they are also correct in this).
Of course it is stressful. Being an untrained apostate is also stressful. Which is preferable?
A lot of parents scorn their child the second they discover their child is a mage. Where would you prefer to go? Stay an orphan, with abilities you cannot even begin to fathom, or go to a school where everyone is just like you, and be taught to control those abilities?
And I havn't said that stress equals instant possession. I say that stress is a factor in possession.

lololol emperorepicfail. You say that parent scorn their mage childeren. Why is that ? i think it has something to with a certain religious institution that says they are cursed. No bucko some templars and priest may have more open mind about magic but most of the chantry sees magic as a curse.

P.S. we already established that its compeletly normal mages to have kids. by your damn admission no less.

They scorn their child because they fear it. Magic is dangerous, the parents understandably fears what they don't understand. Some more learned parents, may acknowledge that tehir child is a amge, and send them to the tower. Some other learned, and more rebellious, parents would want to raise, and train, their own child. Again, the CHantry does not see magic as a curse anymore thana  gift. They view it as both. And it is both. To be a mage, is to be cursed to be constantly aware of the threats of the Fade, and the threat you yourself pose to those near you. It is also the gift of awesome power to help those around you. Or destroy your enemies.
And while it isn't common that mages have children, it isn't a rare occurence. Even Wynne had one.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I know he is a special case. I am arguing he isn't a unique case.

In other words, you're contradicting what David Gaider explicitly stated on the issue of mages and their children when they are members of the Circle of Magi. He provided the exception for mages: Grey Wardens, who aren't Circle mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Every time you make that statement, you openly contradict what David Gaider explicitly stated about Circle mages losing their children to the Chantry.

You have no evidence that Wilheim is still a member of the Circle of Ferelden, and Gaider has made it clear that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, with the only exception to this rule being the Grey Wardens, who are no longer governed by the Chantry and aren't part of the Circle anymore.

True. I am basing the assumption of Wilhelm being a Circle mage on the fact he was still in correspondence with the First Enchanter of Ferelden. I am just basing my faith on the intergrity of a First Enchanter (I guess DA2 should have taught me otherwise).

Correspondence with First Enchanter Arlen only addresses that Wilhelm had communication with Alen, nothing more than that. It's likely Wilhelm had a royal boon from King Maric given that he has a wife and a son in the village of Honnleath.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They scorn their child because they fear it. Magic is dangerous, the parents understandably fears what they don't understand. Some more learned parents, may acknowledge that tehir child is a amge, and send them to the tower. Some other learned, and more rebellious, parents would want to raise, and train, their own child. Again, the CHantry does not see magic as a curse anymore thana  gift. They view it as both.

You seem to be interjecting your own opinions as facts on this issue. The person who addresses it as both is Knight-Commander Greagoir in the Magi Origin. We heard the term "cursed" used often enough by Andrastians when referring to magic and mages in DA:O and DA2 to understand how the Chantry indocturinates people on viewing mages and their abilities.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And while it isn't common that mages have children, it isn't a rare occurence. Even Wynne had one.

The child was taken away by the Chantry, which addresses what Gaider said about mages from the Circle and their children.

[Bigdoser]

I do seem to recall in the magi origin that a women was praying to the maker to take her "curse" away i wonder how that idea got into her head?

Modifié par Bigdoser, 02 mai 2011 - 06:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I know he is a special case. I am arguing he isn't a unique case.

In other words, you're contradicting what David Gaider explicitly stated on the issue of mages and their children when they are members of the Circle of Magi. He provided the exception for mages: Grey Wardens, who aren't Circle mages.

No more than the Chantry itself is contradicting your so called Word of God, by giving Wilhelm a family.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Every time you make that statement, you openly contradict what David Gaider explicitly stated about Circle mages losing their children to the Chantry.

You have no evidence that Wilheim is still a member of the Circle of Ferelden, and Gaider has made it clear that the Chantry takes away the children of Circle mages, with the only exception to this rule being the Grey Wardens, who are no longer governed by the Chantry and aren't part of the Circle anymore.

True. I am basing the assumption of Wilhelm being a Circle mage on the fact he was still in correspondence with the First Enchanter of Ferelden. I am just basing my faith on the intergrity of a First Enchanter (I guess DA2 should have taught me otherwise).

Correspondence with First Enchanter Arlen only addresses that Wilhelm had communication with Alen, nothing more than that. It's likely Wilhelm had a royal boon from King Maric given that he has a wife and a son in the village of Honnleath.

I am assuming that a First Enchanter (normally) wouldn't communicate with a known apostate. Ideally a First Enchanter wouldn't, and I am not willing to claim that Orsino was the "normal" First Enchanter. And a royal boon would gain Wilhelm nothing. The crown has no authority over the Circle. So him livng on his own can only be attributed to two things: him being granted the right to do so by the Circle, or that he is an apostate.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They scorn their child because they fear it. Magic is dangerous, the parents understandably fears what they don't understand. Some more learned parents, may acknowledge that tehir child is a amge, and send them to the tower. Some other learned, and more rebellious, parents would want to raise, and train, their own child. Again, the CHantry does not see magic as a curse anymore thana  gift. They view it as both.

You seem to be interjecting your own opinions as facts on this issue. The person who addresses it as both is Knight-Commander Greagoir in the Magi Origin. We heard the term "cursed" used often enough by Andrastians when referring to magic and mages in DA:O and DA2 to understand how the Chantry indocturinates people on viewing mages and their abilities.

I have seen a pretty equal division of people who views magic as a gift or as a curse. The chantry does not indoctrinate people to fear magic. They simply teach that magic is dangerous. Because of its dangers, the commoners would tend to fear it. Or at best be suspecious of it. And can you blame them?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No more than the Chantry itself is contradicting your so called Word of God, by giving Wilhelm a family.

This isn't contradicted because Wilhelm is a war hero of the Orlesian occupation, where a century of oppression was overturned and he served both Maric and his mother Moira, and if he was granted a royal boon where he then asked the ruler of Ferelden to be free, it makes sense that he would be a free mage in the newly freed nation of Ferelden.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Correspondence with First Enchanter Arlen only addresses that Wilhelm had communication with Alen, nothing more than that. It's likely Wilhelm had a royal boon from King Maric given that he has a wife and a son in the village of Honnleath.

I am assuming that a First Enchanter (normally) wouldn't communicate with a known apostate. Ideally a First Enchanter wouldn't, and I am not willing to claim that Orsino was the "normal" First Enchanter. And a royal boon would gain Wilhelm nothing. The crown has no authority over the Circle. So him livng on his own can only be attributed to two things: him being granted the right to do so by the Circle, or that he is an apostate.

Wilhelm isn't an apostate if the ruler of Ferelden granted him his freedom for his service to the Crown. Since it's known that the ruler of a kingdom has no say over mages inside the Circle of Magi, it's not impossible for the newly emancipated nation of Ferelden and its rightful ruler to grant autonomy to the person who played a role in securing its freedom.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to be interjecting your own opinions as facts on this issue. The person who addresses it as both is Knight-Commander Greagoir in the Magi Origin. We heard the term "cursed" used often enough by Andrastians when referring to magic and mages in DA:O and DA2 to understand how the Chantry indocturinates people on viewing mages and their abilities.

I have seen a pretty equal division of people who views magic as a gift or as a curse. The chantry does not indoctrinate people to fear magic. They simply teach that magic is dangerous. Because of its dangers, the commoners would tend to fear it. Or at best be suspecious of it. And can you blame them?

The fact that Andrastians repeatedly refer to magic as a curse, including Bethany and Meredith, illustrates that the Chantry doesn't merely teach people that magic is dangerous.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The crown has no juridstiction of the Circle. The only ones who could ever grant a mage his freedom would be the Chantry. Not some king. So it does not make sense for him to be granted the right to make a family by the crown, not at all actually.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The crown has no juridstiction of the Circle. The only ones who could ever grant a mage his freedom would be the Chantry. Not some king. So it does not make sense for him to be granted the right to make a family by the crown, not at all actually.

King Alistair harbors apostates in DA2 because he makes it clear that he has no say over mages inside of the Circle, only mages who are outside of the Circle. And given how the Chantry supported the brutal oppression of Ferelden for over a century until Maric and Loghain started winning (which caused Maric and Loghain to consider dismantling the Chantry), I doubt that the Chantry was going to put up a fight with the ruler of the nation for emancipating one mage from the Circle of Ferelden.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think they would. Very much so even. The Chantry isn't about to let someone else tell them what to do, king or commoner.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think they would. Very much so even. The Chantry isn't about to let someone else tell them what to do, king or commoner.

That doesn't seem to stop King Alistair from harboring apostates from the templars.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think they would. Very much so even. The Chantry isn't about to let someone else tell them what to do, king or commoner.

Why is it so hard to believe that King Maric, the GC of Denerim and the Templar KC of Fereldan might have cut a deal with a respected WAR HERO of Fereldan especially when the alternative was having King Meric toss the Chantry out on it's ear creating a fight that the Chantry and Orlais at the time clealry did not want?

People are granted WAIVERS all the time in real life.  A WAIVER does NOT mean the normal rules don't apply.  It means a special exemption was made for an exceptional case.

You can't draw any conclusions about Wilhelm especially when DG as WoG explicitly stated that circle mages aren't permitted to keep their children (with Grey Wardens being the sole exception).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think they would. Very much so even. The Chantry isn't about to let someone else tell them what to do, king or commoner.

That doesn't seem to stop King Alistair from harboring apostates from the templars.

Indeed, this seems clearly to be a fight the Chantry doesn't want especially since (if I read my KC Gregoire correctly) there is a good chance the Chantry would be fighting it's own Fereldan Templars.

The Chantry burned a LOT of bridges with the Orlesian occupation, and Celene I is clearly "cool" to the idea of Fereldan adventurism.  That puts the Chantry in a decidedly weak position even before the Kirkwall debacle.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think they would. Very much so even. The Chantry isn't about to let someone else tell them what to do, king or commoner.

Why is it so hard to believe that King Maric, the GC of Denerim and the Templar KC of Fereldan might have cut a deal with a respected WAR HERO of Fereldan especially when the alternative was having King Meric toss the Chantry out on it's ear creating a fight that the Chantry and Orlais at the time clealry did not want?

People are granted WAIVERS all the time in real life.  A WAIVER does NOT mean the normal rules don't apply.  It means a special exemption was made for an exceptional case.

You can't draw any conclusions about Wilhelm especially when DG as WoG explicitly stated that circle mages aren't permitted to keep their children (with Grey Wardens being the sole exception).

-Polaris

No matter how you put it. No matter how turn and twist. The ONLY faction which is able to release a mage, is the Chantry. For the king to reward Wilhelm, he would have to ask the Chantry. The Chantry evidently agreed. But make no mistake, it was the Chantry which granted him his "freedom". If the King had gone around the Chantry and granted Wilhelm freedom, he would have been an apostate, and the Templars would have been obligated to hunt him down.
Without a doubt he is a special case, but there is no way of knowing wether he is a unique case. Other mages may have been granted a similar reward through the ages. And that is my point. Wilhelm is a clear sign, that the Chantry is capable to circumvent its own rules and allow mages to marry and raise their own children.

[Beerfish]

And Wilhelm.....yet another example of a 'free' mage getting into the demon summoning game and after getting squashed by Shale having a prospective demon on the loose. Yeah, mages can be trusted outside the circle to always do the right thing.

[Iosev]

From the various sources in the game, people like Wilhelm seem to be the exception, rather than the rule. Many of the NPCs make it clear that most magi under the Circle are not able to parent their own children, and additionally, with the exception of the Grey Wardens, most magi outside of the Circle are branded apostates.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No matter how you put it. No matter how turn and twist. The ONLY faction which is able to release a mage, is the Chantry.

You should tell that to Duncan in the Magi Origin, because I don't think he got the memo.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For the king to reward Wilhelm, he would have to ask the Chantry.

No, he wouldn't have to do that. Maric and Loghain freed the nation from the rule of the Orlesians, and the Chantry supported the occupation for over a century. Loghain lost his mother to the Orlesians, as did Maric. I don't see the Chantry threatening their establishment in the nation by trying to overrule Maric's decree for a single mage when he has the power to dissolve the Chantry and expel the templars, particularly when the Chantry has been loudly vocal about their support for the Orlesian Empire. Given these reasons, I doubt they are going to ask the Chantry for "permission" to do anything.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry evidently agreed. But make no mistake, it was the Chantry which granted him his "freedom". If the King had gone around the Chantry and granted Wilhelm freedom, he would have been an apostate, and the Templars would have been obligated to hunt him down.

The nation has been newly emancipated from Orlesian rule and the ruler has contemplated dissolving the Chantry. I don't see the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars giving the ruler a reason to try to expel templars from their borders or to go through with dissolving the Chantry. If the King declared Wilhelm to be free from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see templars going against the King's order when the relationship between the new ruler of Ferelden and the Chantry is tentative after the war - particularly when one considers that the Chantry openly supported the Orlesian occupation for over a century.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Without a doubt he is a special case, but there is no way of knowing wether he is a unique case.

Wilhelm was a war hero who helped liberate Ferelden, and there's no evidence that Maric or Loghain asked the Chantry for permission to free him. Given how the Chantry says no to the Magi boon, I don't see why they would concede to free a mage. Alistair has proven that the ruler can circumvent this by focusing on mages who are not inside the Circle of Ferelden. Since David Gaider has stated that Circle mages always have their children taken away from them, I don't see why you try to contradict him.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other mages may have been granted a similar reward through the ages. And that is my point. Wilhelm is a clear sign, that the Chantry is capable to circumvent its own rules and allow mages to marry and raise their own children.

Wilhelm is a sign of what can happen if a mage helps a nation free itself from the Orlesians and the rulers are considering dismantling the Chantry of Andraste in their borders. The only exception Gaider provided was the Grey Wardens.

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

And Wilhelm.....yet another example of a 'free' mage getting into the demon summoning game and after getting squashed by Shale having a prospective demon on the loose. Yeah, mages can be trusted outside the circle to always do the right thing.

Wrong.  Wilhelm wasn't a nice person but his reasoning is sound.  How are mages supposed to learn how to defend against demons if the Chantry doesn't permit mages to study it?  That demon was under lock and key and was going NO WHERE and hadn't gone anywhere for a full generation.

That's hardly setting a demon "on the loose".

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The point is that Wilhelm was apparently technically an apostate, but one that the Chantry and the Circle *tolerated* because of his political connections. Wilhelm in his letter to Arlen is openly worried about that toleration ending if the Templars got wind of his research.

In short, Wilhelm was apparently much like Hawke in Act 3. An open apostate in open violation of Chantry law, but one that the Chantry/Templars for largely political reasons wasn't willing to do anything about.

-Polaris