Modifié par arcelonious, 02 mai 2011 - 08:34 .
arcelonious wrote...
Hell, I would imagine that the Chantry would go after a Grey Warden mage if given a reason to, regardless of the law.
Grey Wardens don't release mages. They just put them under a different leash.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No matter how you put it. No matter how turn and twist. The ONLY faction which is able to release a mage, is the Chantry.
You should tell that to Duncan in the Magi Origin, because I don't think he got the memo.
Yes, yes he would. Wether or not they have just won back their country is irrelevant. The Chantry are the ones to ask if you want a mage released. Not the crown. Period.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
For the king to reward Wilhelm, he would have to ask the Chantry.
No, he wouldn't have to do that. Maric and Loghain freed the nation from the rule of the Orlesians, and the Chantry supported the occupation for over a century. Loghain lost his mother to the Orlesians, as did Maric. I don't see the Chantry threatening their establishment in the nation by trying to overrule Maric's decree for a single mage when he has the power to dissolve the Chantry and expel the templars, particularly when the Chantry has been loudly vocal about their support for the Orlesian Empire. Given these reasons, I doubt they are going to ask the Chantry for "permission" to do anything.
The Templars will do as the Divine asks of them. If the Divine rules for the Templars to hunt an apostate, they will do so. Royalty be damned. However, Wilhelm obviously wasn't an apostate, so it doesn't matter.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Chantry evidently agreed. But make no mistake, it was the Chantry which granted him his "freedom". If the King had gone around the Chantry and granted Wilhelm freedom, he would have been an apostate, and the Templars would have been obligated to hunt him down.
The nation has been newly emancipated from Orlesian rule and the ruler has contemplated dissolving the Chantry. I don't see the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars giving the ruler a reason to try to expel templars from their borders or to go through with dissolving the Chantry. If the King declared Wilhelm to be free from the Circle of Ferelden, I don't see templars going against the King's order when the relationship between the new ruler of Ferelden and the Chantry is tentative after the war - particularly when one considers that the Chantry openly supported the Orlesian occupation for over a century.
They would, because their weakened posistion in Ferelden forced them to. Its called politics. Just becasue the Chantry agreed, does not mean they liked it.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Without a doubt he is a special case, but there is no way of knowing wether he is a unique case.
Wilhelm was a war hero who helped liberate Ferelden, and there's no evidence that Maric or Loghain asked the Chantry for permission to free him. Given how the Chantry says no to the Magi boon, I don't see why they would concede to free a mage. Alistair has proven that the ruler can circumvent this by focusing on mages who are not inside the Circle of Ferelden. Since David Gaider has stated that Circle mages always have their children taken away from them, I don't see why you try to contradict him.
Wilhelm is a sign that mages can get the right to start a family. Try to cover it up all that you like, but Wilhelm is(/was) proof that a Circle Mage can get those things.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Other mages may have been granted a similar reward through the ages. And that is my point. Wilhelm is a clear sign, that the Chantry is capable to circumvent its own rules and allow mages to marry and raise their own children.
Wilhelm is a sign of what can happen if a mage helps a nation free itself from the Orlesians and the rulers are considering dismantling the Chantry of Andraste in their borders. The only exception Gaider provided was the Grey Wardens.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
He wouldn't fear the Templars merely discovered his research if he was an apostate. He would fear discovery in itself.
LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens are free to marry (as we see from King Alistair or the
Cousland Warden) and have children who aren't taken by the Chantry (as
David Gaider explained). I'd say that they are free with the order in a
way that no Circle mage will ever be free within the Circle of Magi.
XxDeonxX wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens are free to marry (as we see from King Alistair or the Cousland Warden) and have children who aren't taken by the Chantry (as David Gaider explained). I'd say that they are free with the order in a way that no Circle mage will ever be free within the Circle of Magi.
The case for Alistair doesn't really apply though since he left the order, But yeah they are allowed to marry because remember that guy in awakening whose b**ch wife was cheating on him
Beerfish wrote...
Eh? You may have misinterpretted my comment. Connor, Redcliffe, a young mage boy, a nice kid not a mean bone in his body, tutored by a mage, out side of the circle and yet he causes GREAT harm to innocents in redcliffe. One loan kid caused the deaths of many many people and almost totally destoryed Redcliffe.
I'll guarantee you that if beings in the here and now had a genetic abnormaility in whcih they had the possibiltiy tio turn into someone that can kill dozens or hundreds and if that actually had happened in the past and that the abnormaility was identified as the reason those unfortunate people would meet with the same level of control and scrutiny, fear and dread as mages in this game.
As spock would say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
Agreed. His reasoning is good (to research methods and ways for mages to defend against demons) but the templars wouldn't see it that way until after that fact at the most.IanPolaris wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
He wouldn't fear the Templars merely discovered his research if he was an apostate. He would fear discovery in itself.
You are once again wrong. The Templars and Chantry know (or knew) all about Wilhelm. They left him alone for political reasons (the Chantry was and is skating on very thin ice in Fereldan and the Templars know it).
However, if it came out that Wilhelm was summoning and dealing with demons, then that political support dissapears and "poof"...it's Templar stabby-stabby time.
-Polaris
Modifié par Furtled, 09 mai 2011 - 05:29 .
Furtled wrote...
Possibly a bit rambly but here goes: I personally felt horrible the one time I sided with the Templars (hell I haven't been able to let Karras live since I caught the dialogue from Alain about his nightly 'visits') because it's committing wholesale slaughter of men, women and children who are very possibly innocent of bloodmagic use (they're definitely innocent of blowing up the Chantry), all on the say so of woman clearly driven to paranoid fanaticisim over the course of the game.
At the point the player's asked to make their decision we also don't know anything about Orsino's later revelations or the various beasties we discover in the Tower, so all you have to go on is rumours of a Knight Commander driven mad (suggested to be more than rumours by Cullen's dialogue), the crack downs on the mages and the abuses of Templars like Alric and Karras; to represent the Circle you have Orsino (who comes accross as a fairly reasonable man in an unreasonable situation) and possibly the PC's sister.
If Meredith's character had been more like Thrask or Cullen then it would have been a difficult decision, if the dialogue had made it clear that siding with the mages would lead to more casualties among ordinary citizens, or I'd been allowed a glimpse into the Circle mages (not the escaped mages/mad types we meet outside the Circle) dabbling in dark arts, or Meredith hadn't turned the Tower into a high security prison with bonus abusive guards then it might have been a more difficult decision, but as the game currently stands I cannot personally justify the Rite.
I concede that both sides are at fault and that both sides have valid points, but in the end I can't see the Rite as anything other than outright murder in DA2; it's a different case in Origins as there's a clear and present threat when the Rite is invoked, plus it helps that Gregior doesn't come across as a madman. The law and order argument doesn't hold for me either as to me the law has always operated on the presumption of innocence, the Rite as Meredith invokes it goes against that.
I don't know if it's worse than slaughtering the Dalish in origins, it's certainly comperable since once again the player is being asked to kill a group of people for someone elses crime.
Modifié par Bigdoser, 03 mai 2011 - 06:00 .
Modifié par Carrington666, 03 mai 2011 - 09:57 .
It's a good question, to my mind at the point in the game Hawke's asked to make the decision I've always reasoned that they have no proof that there are Bloodmages in the Circle, that's only confirmed later once it's too late to back down. And I'll admit I'd actually forgotten about the threat of an Exalted March with all the explosions and shouting, my Hawkes are nearly always the types to react to what's happening now opposed to taking the long view.Carrington666 wrote...
The question is, do you do the wrong thing and kill innocent mages or do you do the right thing and enable the remaining Bloodmages to do as they please and risk an Exalted March against Kirkwall.
As you say Orsino does offer once they reach the Gallows but Meredith refuses to back down even if Hawke attempts to convince her to see reason, that's the part that usually cements my decision to stick with the mages.Carrington666 wrote...
Orsino could have prevented the Slaughter by letting the Templars search the tower, but he didn't.
Modifié par Furtled, 09 mai 2011 - 06:28 .
That's pretty much my take on things, Meredith's character engenders no confidence in her decisions because she does such a poor job running the Gallows and keeping her own troops in check, her actions run entirely counter to her supposed call to uphold law and order in the final act.Sussurus wrote...
If at certain points you found out she had purged some of the evil from her order I could understand it more.
She herself never acted like a person that would stand by and allow certain practices on such scale.
Even if this was just due to the possibilities of her order descending into demonic influence.
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