48 réponses à ce sujet

[aimlessgun]

lolwut666 wrote...

The point is that, if you add small bonuses on top of each other, it *will* make a difference in the end, and that if you keep shaving things out in favor of others, thinking it will be inconsequential in the end, you'll end up being mediocre in both things.

The thing is, we're not talking about stacking a bunch of bonuses. We are talking about 1 power. The Champion Vanguard can wear the exact same damage boosting gear as the Destroyer, so all that doesn't matter.

It would matter a bit more if damage bonuses were multiplicative, but they are not. They all apply to your base damage.

[TheBestClass]

Also, if you're choosing Tungsten Ammo for some perceived power-gaming advantage, then you're actually making things harder for yourself. I'm not going to bring up the math because I don't know it and this game doesn't necessitate it. I do know that Inferno provides better crowd control, opens up a slot for another bonus power and, most importantly, looks cooler. Don't get bogged down in the numbers for this game because while Tungsten may seem better on paper, it's really not. Sorry for going off-topic but Tungsten, and to a much larger extent, Warp Ammo are really overrated and I think a lot of that comes from the descriptions of these powers. The ammos that provide some sort of crowd control are almost always better. Its hard to explain the advantages of lighting people on fire or freezing them through text it would seem. Just try it out.

[termokanden]

It depends on what you're doing with those ammo powers. I know from personal experience that there is a point in the game where Warp Ammo will help an infiltrator one-shot without Cloak. I'd hardly call that overrated. Furthermore, infiltrator is a combat class and doesn't already have a power against armor/health. I think it's worth it there. Heavy Warp Ammo that is, Tungsten doesn't help you snipe Collectors.

Vanguards and soldiers on the other hand already have Incendiary Ammo. Soliders even have Disruptor as well. There isn't really much point in taking another ammo power against the same type of defense when Inferno Ammo also has good CC.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[naledgeborn]

The proof is in the pudding

[lolwut666]

I like my build.

[IMNWME]

Champion 4 lyfe. Champion cool-down bonus is the only one that affects Charge (Biotic Cooldown doesn't help at all, which is strange).

Destroyer would be better if it was a +25% Weapon Dmg. Bonus. That might actually make a difference. If the Evi could one-shot a standard mook w/ upgrades + Destroyer spec, it would make the Destroyer build significantly different from Champion.

Modifié par IMNWME, 02 mai 2011 - 04:52 .

[Alistair_Dunscon]

lolwut666 wrote...

I like my build.

And I like area charge. That doesn't mean it is the most effective choice..

[lolwut666]

It's the most effective to me.

[Influ]

I always go for the Champion specialization, as the damage bonus is truly negligible. As a Scimitar user it might mean on occasion that I need one more melee attack or Scimitar shot to kill a mook. If you're using the Claymore I don't really see any point in it. You will still one shot regular mooks and will still not one shot heavier enemies. Being able to replenish your barriers more often with Charge helps with survivability much more, even though the cooldown difference is quite small too.

I would never, ever use Tungsten Ammo over Inferno Ammo when playing vanguard. The CC effect of Inferno Ammos 3m AoE blast is insanely useful against organics, as it ignores defenses. Only down sides are that it does no bonus damage against synthetic health and the CC effects won't work on them either. But the advantages of the CC effects against organics far outweighs this. You can also just bring Zaeed with Squad Disruptor on the Geth missions.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Destroyer is redundant, pick Champion instead since Cooldown is much more important even if it is just a bit shorter with Champion, it DOES make a difference and if you want more damage just pick Miranda (cerberus leader) with you.

Squad cryo VS Squad incendiary, Go with Squad cryo since the freeze effect (give you time to heal if your cooldown causing trouble) and double damage for a short time is far more useful than some extra damage from incendiary ( Insanity included bring a character with Area overload).

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 02 mai 2011 - 07:15 .

[lolwut666]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Okay pals, ... this topic has degenerated into a "let's tell lolwut666 why he should use our builds" thread.
I say we cut it out and let it be.The original question brought up about Champion vs Destroyer has been answered and did state quite clear there is no really exploitable advantage for any of both. Point.
And if lolwut666 likes Tungsten Ammo over Inferno Ammo, it's his thing. It may miss out the CC effect, but someone can play his Vanguard in a way he doesn't need it and instead benefit from the slightly higher boni it offers.

This is NOT a "your build is suboptimal, mine is better" thread. Let's return to that.

Thank you

Thanks.

I think it's my fault, though. I might have sounded a little presumptuous, though that was not my intention.

The point is that I like to deal as much damage as possible in one shot, and that's the purpose of this build.

I'm not saying it's the best build; it's just the build I like to play.

And yes, I do have better results with Tungsten than with Inferno, but that has more to do with my playstyle than with theory.

[TevinterMagister]

lolwut666 wrote...

I'm not saying it's the best build; it's just the build I like to play.

And yes, I do have better results with Tungsten than with Inferno, but that has more to do with my playstyle than with theory.

QFE

[Rheia]

Prefer the destroyer too when I play the vanguard. My reasoning, however is probably laughable... I don't like the champion epithet, heh.

It helps that I also prefer offence oriented builds in all my games, though, so I never felt torn over choosing between the two.

[Kronner]

I have a couple of Destroyer Vanguards, and while it may not be an optimal choice, it sure feels good to go for a maximum weapon damage build. It also fits very nicely with an all-offensive class such as Vanguard.
Long live the Destroyer!

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mai 2011 - 03:09 .

[Leonia]

Yay more Destroyer/Claymore users! Totally my favourite way to play

Though, admittedly, I suck at aiming from a distnace so I like to get the most bang for my buck once I charge the enemy, get in close, hit them hard, get the hell out, let a squaddie bring down the next baddies shields, charge in, shotgun to the face, rinse, repeat.

Also a big fan of inferno ammo, it's great if my squaddies' skills are on cooldown and I need to tear down some armour fast.

Modifié par leonia42, 02 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[Clonedzero]

i go with the damage personally. it suits my playstyle better. i tend to not shotgun charge nearly as much as everyone else here seems to.

i actually generally use my SMG / AR (post-collector ship) more than my shotgun, and pull field, shockwave and slam more than charge. i still shotgun charge, but its not my primary attack.

sure i might be "playing wrong" but i dont care. its fun and its how i prefer to play. i also prefer the scimitar as my shotgun rather than anything else.

the one time i used champion i didnt notice any significant change in cooldowns, and bonus damage is ALWAYS useful. so thats what i go for.

[Bozorgmehr]

I never noticed a difference. I play Champ when my Shep's being nice (paragon) - I'll be a Destroyer when Shep feels badass (renegade), hence Destroyer would be the favorite

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 02 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[IMNWME]

I actually do the opposite. Champion when I'm a Renegade, and Destroyer when I'm Paragon. Renegade points are harder to accrue than Paragon points, so the boost is nice.

[kstarler]

Whenever I play Vanguard I feel like a Destroyer and a Champion. As far as specs go, I've done both, but I prefer Destroyer as the cool down bonus is negligible and I just edit my paragon/renegade in gibbed.

Modifié par kstarler, 02 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[Stardusk78]

Almost no difference; hopefully ME3 will fix that and make evolutions important in their differences.

[amcnow]

aimlessgun wrote...
The thing is, we're not talking about stacking a bunch of bonuses. We are talking about 1 power. The Champion Vanguard can wear the exact same damage boosting gear as the Destroyer, so all that doesn't matter.
It would matter a bit more if damage bonuses were multiplicative, but they are not. They all apply to your base damage.

Let's talk about this one power.  Destroyer adds 15% weapon damage.  Champion adds 9% weapon damage.  Destroyer has a +6% advantage so far in weapon damage.

Destroyer's also adds 15% power damage.  Champion, however, doesn't offer a power damage bonus...  Since the OP likes Tungsten Ammo, I'll use that as an example.

Tungsten Ammo adds 70% weapon damage.  Since power damage affects ammo powers, we add 15% power damage to Tungsten Ammo.  The math is: 70 * 1.15 = 80.5.  With the power damage bonus, Tungsten Ammo for Destroyers now adds 80.5% weapon damage instead of the stock 70%.

In this scenario, Destroyers with Tungsten Ammo effectively get a 95.5% weapon damage bonus.  Champions, meanwhile, effectively get a 79% weapon damage bonus.  In this scenario, Destroyers effectively have a +16.5% advantage in weapon damage.  Obviously, protection type should be taken into account.  Even then, this damage bonus is still noticeable to anyone paying attention.

To sum things up, here's a breakdown of bonus weapon damage for Destroyers and Champions:

IMPROVED SHREDDER AMMO
------------------------------------------
Destroyer: +107% (+92% Improved Shredder Ammo)
Champion: +89% (+80% Improved Shredder Ammo)

TUNGSTEN AMMO
-------------------------
Destroyer: +95.5% (+80.5% Tungsten Ammo)
Champion: +79% (+70% Tungsten Ammo)

INFERNO AMMO
----------------------
Destroyer: +84% (+69% Inferno Ammo)
Champion: +69% (+60% Inferno Ammo)

HEAVY DISRUPTOR AMMO
-------------------------------------
See Inferno Ammo

HEAVY WARP AMMO
-----------------------------
Destroyer: +72.5% (+57.5% Heavy Warp Ammo)
Champion: +59% (+50% Heavy Warp Ammo)
*Not sure how this affects enemies affected by biotics.  Best case scenario gives Destroyer further advantage.

I won't advocate Tungsten Ammo over Inferno Ammo for overall utility.  I will say the Destroyer weapon damage bonus is more than negligible, regardless of which ammo power you choose from above.

Source: http://social.biowar...index/1123228/1

Modifié par amcnow, 04 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[Kronner]

Yeah, the extra +6% weapon bonus is negligible, but I think I noticed improved range (with the Claymore) as a Destroyer. Maybe it is just me, but I think it is really there.