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[Someone With Mass]

TIM knows that Shepard can very well unite some races and factions to fight the Reapers, so why stop him? It contradicts the very reason they brought Shepard back to life to begin with, unless they're trying to use him for their own benefits.

[ExtremeOne]

lolwut666 wrote...

Eh...

I don't see why so many people argue that there's no way TIM would ever kill Shepard because of what he went through to bring him back.

Shepard is, and has always been, a wild card. He also happens to be the best of the best, which is why TIM brought him back in the first place: no one else would be up to the challenge. But it's obvious that, sooner or later, Shepard will prove to be more trouble than he is worth.

It's a statement to his capacity for forward-thinking and confidence on his own schemes that he'd invest so much on Shepard even though he'd have to kill him eventually.

  


Its the idea behind it why have us play ME 2 and basically introduce a new version of Cerberus and TIM . If in 3 Bioware just says oh that story in ME 2 mean't nothing at all . I do not buy it .  

[Last Vizard]

Ksandor wrote...

OK maybe there is a reason for Illusive Man wanting to kill Shepard. According to Mass Effect Evolution comic, Illusive Man has been partially assimilated by a Repaer device. Maybe a dormant indoctrination command had been translanted in his mind -- making him a sleeper agent if you will. Maybe the coming of Reapers triggered that command and now Illusive Man is totally indoctrinated and wants Shepard dead.

I would like to remind you that if Shepard saves the Collector Base there is no need for Illusive Man to be angry to Shepard. Then why he wants to kill him?

My theory could be simple wishful thinking. But it is a nice twist to the story. I mean Illusive Man's Reaper tech eyes should have some concequences right?

Nope, it would make for poor story if he is indoctrinated.... wouldn't Nazzara have hacked TIM?  what if TIM thinks Shep is a threat or if its all a ploy for shep to look like a good guy to the Aliens?

[Ksandor]

SennenScale wrote...

Indoctrination feels kind of cheap. I'd prefer it that TIM just decides that you're a loose end or a liability rather than copy+paste Saren. Perhaps he learned something from the base that obsoletes the need for YOU to defeat the reapers.

Agreed. Although I think that Reaper influence on Illusive Man would be cool -nice twist, tying things to Mass Effect Evolution- I also believe that an indoctrinated Illusive Man would be cheap and detrimental to the character. I dunno. Mine was a thought experiment... Hopefully they will do something more original than my speculation.

[Ksandor]

Last Vizard wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

OK maybe there is a reason for Illusive Man wanting to kill Shepard. According to Mass Effect Evolution comic, Illusive Man has been partially assimilated by a Repaer device. Maybe a dormant indoctrination command had been translanted in his mind -- making him a sleeper agent if you will. Maybe the coming of Reapers triggered that command and now Illusive Man is totally indoctrinated and wants Shepard dead.

I would like to remind you that if Shepard saves the Collector Base there is no need for Illusive Man to be angry to Shepard. Then why he wants to kill him?

My theory could be simple wishful thinking. But it is a nice twist to the story. I mean Illusive Man's Reaper tech eyes should have some concequences right?

Nope, it would make for poor story if he is indoctrinated.... wouldn't Nazzara have hacked TIM?  what if TIM thinks Shep is a threat or if its all a ploy for shep to look like a good guy to the Aliens?

What is the difference between hacking and indoctrinating TIM? TIM is an organic. He cannot be hacked like synthetics but he could be indoctrinated. Maybe Reapers take control of him in ME3. But yes, it would make him a puppet, a weak man, instead of an arch rival. Maybe he makes a deal with Reapers. Make humanity the priveleged Reaper minion in return of sparing humanity from Reaper destruction. How about that? 

[Seboist]

didymos1120 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

ExtremeOne's posts are hilarious.

I think he is just pulling our legs.

I don't know about that.  He's got a twitter URL listed on his profile page, and complains about Cerberus getting the shaft there too. 

I'm gonna sign up to twitter for the first time ever and follow his feed.

Modifié par Seboist, 02 mai 2011 - 11:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

I'm partial to the notion that at some point TIM comes to think, for whatever reason, that Shep's anti-Reaper plan is actually going to get them all killed. This seems like it would offer some interesting opportunities choice-wise. I.e., you could manage to convince TIM you know what you're about and return to a state of detente and even cooperation, which in turn could give you an opening to betray him down the line and shatter Cerberus for good or even take it over. That sort of thing.

Or you could even agree that TIM's right, in which case... surprise!


"Shepard... you ARE indoctrinated."

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TIM knows that Shepard can very well unite some races and factions to fight the Reapers, so why stop him? It contradicts the very reason they brought Shepard back to life to begin with, unless they're trying to use him for their own benefits.

Or unless Shepard is trying to unite the races in a context that may ruin it all by leading into a Reaper trap of sorts.

[Last Vizard]

Ksandor wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

OK maybe there is a reason for Illusive Man wanting to kill Shepard. According to Mass Effect Evolution comic, Illusive Man has been partially assimilated by a Repaer device. Maybe a dormant indoctrination command had been translanted in his mind -- making him a sleeper agent if you will. Maybe the coming of Reapers triggered that command and now Illusive Man is totally indoctrinated and wants Shepard dead.

I would like to remind you that if Shepard saves the Collector Base there is no need for Illusive Man to be angry to Shepard. Then why he wants to kill him?

My theory could be simple wishful thinking. But it is a nice twist to the story. I mean Illusive Man's Reaper tech eyes should have some concequences right?

Nope, it would make for poor story if he is indoctrinated.... wouldn't Nazzara have hacked TIM?  what if TIM thinks Shep is a threat or if its all a ploy for shep to look like a good guy to the Aliens?

What is the difference between hacking and indoctrinating TIM? TIM is an organic. He cannot be hacked like synthetics but he could be indoctrinated. Maybe Reapers take control of him in ME3. But yes, it would make him a puppet, a weak man, instead of an arch rival. Maybe he makes a deal with Reapers. Make humanity the priveleged Reaper minion in return of sparing humanity from Reaper destruction. How about that? 

Maybe, but TIM would have to know they're not going to allow us to hang around for 50,000 years while advancing in tech.

[armass]

Either that or he's gone cuckoo.

Modifié par armass, 02 mai 2011 - 03:56 .

[AngelicMachinery]

He's created a monster in Shepherd, and now he has to put her down.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 02 mai 2011 - 04:05 .

[88mphSlayer]

all this indoctrination talk is kind of tiring, hopefully they handle the idea well, if anybody wants to know what leaning on a plot device too much can do to a game play MGS4

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 02 mai 2011 - 04:44 .

[SupidSeep]

Maybe TIM wants to create the illusion that Shepard has broken off with Ceberus?

The Citadel Council views Ceberus as an enemy, and if Shepard appears to still be in cahoots with TIM, it may make them less willing to help Shepard/Alliance.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Cerberus isnt actually a splinter group and is just a shadow Ops group still working for the Alliance. Shepard becomes fodder to appease the Council due to his/her actions in Arrival.

You get another "creation" screen as your being asked questions by a court and your face is "reconstructed" as the cameras switch on for the trial.

Or, the beginning of the game is the Reapers attacking and the Illusive Man has managed to create something with the remains/fully operational base and beats them back/subdues them. Your not uniting aliens to fight the Reapers but a human + Reaper alliance. Paragon ending is almost destroying your home planet while Renegade is defeating both armies and taking control.

Those are the crazier ones I can come up with.

[008Zulu]

Maybe TIM is jealous that Shepard is getting credit for capturing the base, and there is talk that maybe Shepard is a better candidate to lead Cerberus.

Maybe TIM thinks Shepard betrayed him by working for Hackett in Arrival.

Maybe more Cerberus cells have gone rogue than we think, maybe TIM thinks cells go rogue when they actually haven't, and tries to shut down another "rogue" cell.

Maybe Shepard pinched TIMs cookies.

[Dave666]

How about this as a possible reason for why Cerberus is after Shepard?

The Incompetent Man isn't after Shep personally, Cerberus was infiltrated by indoctrinated Reaper servants and The Incompetent Man was forced to flee, the indoctrinated are now in charge of Cerberus and using Cerberus' resources to hunt Shep down.  

Pure speculation of course but if you remember the http://www.youtube.c...eature=related' class='bbc_url' title='Lien externe' rel='nofollow external'>'fail' video from Arrival 1:38 ish, it had The Incompetent Man standing in person next to the rest of your Squad (along with Chakwas admittedly), so... what if we end up with The Incompetent Man as a Squaddie in ME:3?  It would be soooo hard not to shoot him on sight. lol

Modifié par Dave666, 03 mai 2011 - 11:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Not plausible.

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not plausible.

The Incompetent Man as Squaddie probably isn't, but Cerberus operatives becoming indoctrinated and working their way up the chain certainly is, especially if the Collector Base was kept.  One operative gets indoctrinated and lures a second, who then also gets indoctrinated, each lure another and so on.  We already know that Cerberus were (badly) studying indoctrination (Grayson) which in their typical style they screwed up, all it takes is a cell stumbling upon a Reaper device and sucumbing to indoctrination, which has already happened at least once (Disabled Reaper Ship). After becoming indoctrinated they then lure a superior, indoctrinate him and so on.  

Cerberus remember is quite a tiny organization, it wouldn't take much to infiltrate it.

Modifié par Dave666, 03 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I like how you call TIM the Incompetent Man, Dave.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not plausible.

The Incompetent Man as Squaddie probably isn't, but Cerberus operatives becoming indoctrinated and working their way up the chain certainly is, especially if the Collector Base was kept.  One operative gets indoctrinated and lures a second, who then also gets indoctrinated, each lure another and so on.  We already know that Cerberus were (badly) studying indoctrination (Grayson) which in their typical style they screwed up, all it takes is a cell stumbling upon a Reaper device and sucumbing to indoctrination, which has already happened at least once (Disabled Reaper Ship). After becoming indoctrinated they then lure a superior, indoctrinate him and so on.  

Cerberus remember is quite a tiny organization, it wouldn't take much to infiltrate it.

It ignores the history, implications, and downsides of indoctrinations as well, and the structural formate of Cerberus as a cell organization.

Not plausible.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Regarding TIM as a squaddie, I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare pulled another Loghain on us, so it's possible.

[Dave666]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I like how you call TIM the Incompetent Man, Dave.

I always do on principle. lol

Either he's a sick and twisted amoral sosciopath who doesn't care about the suffering of others and was lying about all of those cells going 'rogue', or they really did all go 'rogue' in which case he's hopelessly incompetent and unfit for any position of command.

Neither of which paints him in a good light.

The Incompetent Man sounds better though so I use that one. 

[Seboist]

SupidSeep wrote...

Maybe TIM wants to create the illusion that Shepard has broken off with Ceberus?

The Citadel Council views Ceberus as an enemy, and if Shepard appears to still be in cahoots with TIM, it may make them less willing to help Shepard/Alliance.

I dunno, the council would have to be pretty petty to care about his past Cerberus affiliation during a Reaper war of all things.

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not plausible.

The Incompetent Man as Squaddie probably isn't, but Cerberus operatives becoming indoctrinated and working their way up the chain certainly is, especially if the Collector Base was kept.  One operative gets indoctrinated and lures a second, who then also gets indoctrinated, each lure another and so on.  We already know that Cerberus were (badly) studying indoctrination (Grayson) which in their typical style they screwed up, all it takes is a cell stumbling upon a Reaper device and sucumbing to indoctrination, which has already happened at least once (Disabled Reaper Ship). After becoming indoctrinated they then lure a superior, indoctrinate him and so on.  

Cerberus remember is quite a tiny organization, it wouldn't take much to infiltrate it.

It ignores the history, implications, and downsides of indoctrinations as well, and the structural formate of Cerberus as a cell organization.

Not plausible.

I presume that you're talking about indoctrination fields?  The stronger the field the faster the effects but the more damage it does to the subject, a lesser field takes longer, but the subject suffers less damage and retains more of their mind and so is more useful.

The fact that Cerberus operates in cells doesn't really mean as much as you think, unless you firmly believe that because of these cells its chategorically impossible for them to locate The Incompetent Man?

If so may I point you towards The Shadow Broker? (Who, yes, was discovered by Cerberus).  The Shadow Broker however in his curent incarnation had been hidden from the rest of the galaxy for fifty years and god knows how many years before that in his previous incarnation, he was considered pretty much a permanent fixture in ME:1 so for all we know it could have been a hundred years or more.  Cerberus on the other hand have been in business for less than forty years in total and there's no way that they would be better at hiding than The Shadow Broker.

I'm quite sure that an indoctrinated Cerberus operative who knew the protocol's etc could find The Incompetent Man.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not plausible.

The Incompetent Man as Squaddie probably isn't, but Cerberus operatives becoming indoctrinated and working their way up the chain certainly is, especially if the Collector Base was kept.  One operative gets indoctrinated and lures a second, who then also gets indoctrinated, each lure another and so on.  We already know that Cerberus were (badly) studying indoctrination (Grayson) which in their typical style they screwed up, all it takes is a cell stumbling upon a Reaper device and sucumbing to indoctrination, which has already happened at least once (Disabled Reaper Ship). After becoming indoctrinated they then lure a superior, indoctrinate him and so on.  

Cerberus remember is quite a tiny organization, it wouldn't take much to infiltrate it.

It ignores the history, implications, and downsides of indoctrinations as well, and the structural formate of Cerberus as a cell organization.

Not plausible.

I presume that you're talking about indoctrination fields?  The stronger the field the faster the effects but the more damage it does to the subject, a lesser field takes longer, but the subject suffers less damage and retains more of their mind and so is more useful.

The fact that Cerberus operates in cells doesn't really mean as much as you think, unless you firmly believe that because of these cells its chategorically impossible for them to locate The Incompetent Man?

If so may I point you towards The Shadow Broker? (Who, yes, was discovered by Cerberus).  The Shadow Broker however in his curent incarnation had been hidden from the rest of the galaxy for fifty years and god knows how many years before that in his previous incarnation, he was considered pretty much a permanent fixture in ME:1 so for all we know it could have been a hundred years or more.  Cerberus on the other hand have been in business for less than forty years in total and there's no way that they would be better at hiding than The Shadow Broker.

I'm quite sure that an indoctrinated Cerberus operative who knew the protocol's etc could find The Incompetent Man.

The damages of indoctrination are continual: 'slow' or 'fast' indoctrination both impede capabilities, and both will ruin the subject over time. 'Spy' indoctrinated have short shelf-lives, or need implants to boost capabilities. Moreover, the only 'smart' indoctrination capable of spies has come from active Reapers: all other indoctrination sources go with a 'dumb' 'protect the source' effect heading onto huskification.

The cell nature of Cerberus is what impedes overflow of indoctrination across cells, for the same reason that compromising one cell doesn't allow for compromising of many others. Cells don't know where eachother are.

The random-pickup of TIM's mobile base is what mitigates the ability of any indoctrinated cell to take over the rest of Cerberus. The agents can take and keep things to the base without being noticed, nor is taking everyone from the station to be indoctrinated elsewhere and then come back plausible.


There is no indication of the previous Shadow Broker having existed for 'hundreds' of years. The Broker's base is a stationary (to a planet) hidden base, but the Illusive Man's is always changing and can hide in deep space. No individual location needs to be hidden as well on account as the location changes constantly.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 mai 2011 - 02:57 .