74 réponses à ce sujet

[DxWill10]

Extremeone = my favorite troll evar!

[Dante Angelo]

I still think the illusive man wants shepard dead simply because the illusive mans paranoid.In a way he's like a mafia boss.

[008Zulu]

I have a theory, newly formed...

TIM has been indoctrinated. Once Renegade takes possession of the base, TIM moves there to personally oversee R&D. The Reapers arrive and immediately go through the Omega 4 relay to re-capture the base, to restart construction of the Human Reaper. Trapped on the base, TIM falls prey to the indoctrination effect.

[Malanek]

My top 3 theories
1) Use him to bargain with the reapers
2) Want to bring him in to upgrade the reaper implants they have already inserted and maybe fit a control chip or even use a modified form of indoctrination to control him
3) TIM is indoctrinated.

[Thargorichiban]

Honestly there is probably a simple reason why this is happening.

In the comics it looked like TIM was already partially indoctrinated by the Reaper device. While he has been able to keep most of his sanity intact (except for an overwhelming urge to gather personal power) this made him a liability come the events of ME3.

While in ME1 and ME2 he ran pretty much under the Reaper's radar. But by the end of ME2 he has either helped (in some measure) destroy/sterilize the Collectors. This could have helped "focus" the Reapers on TIM which was made easier due to the fact he was already partially indoctrinated and due to the fact the Reapers have entered the Milky Way Galaxy (they have proximity on their side too).

Now as the Reapers come closer they are most likely going to twist TIM's mind more and more. Either they are going to convince TIM through indoctrination that Shepard needs to be kept "safe" from the danger (thus getting him out of the Reapers' way) or convince him that Shepard was always a liability to Humanity (thus getting him out of the Reapers' way).

In the end he'll just end up another Saren...

[bald man in a boat]

Modifié par bald man in a boat, 04 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

I have a theory, newly formed...

TIM has been indoctrinated. Once Renegade takes possession of the base, TIM moves there to personally oversee R&D.

Impossible do to Retribution.

The Reapers arrive and immediately go through the Omega 4 relay to re-capture the base, to restart construction of the Human Reaper.

It would be a meaningless waste of Reapers. By the time they could actually make another Human Reaper, the war would already be over and they could just make a new Collector Base.

[Seboist]

I just hope the reason why Cerberus goes after Shep isn't some predictable "TIM is indoctrinated!" mickey mouse plot.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

I have a theory, newly formed...

TIM has been indoctrinated. Once Renegade takes possession of the base, TIM moves there to personally oversee R&D.

Impossible do to Retribution.

The Reapers arrive and immediately go through the Omega 4 relay to re-capture the base, to restart construction of the Human Reaper.

It would be a meaningless waste of Reapers. By the time they could actually make another Human Reaper, the war would already be over and they could just make a new Collector Base.

So Renegade is the ME canon path?

The effort to harvest the galaxy would take centuries. Plenty of time. Why build a new base when there is a perfectly useable one just sitting there?

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

I have a theory, newly formed...

TIM has been indoctrinated. Once Renegade takes possession of the base, TIM moves there to personally oversee R&D.

Impossible do to Retribution.

The Reapers arrive and immediately go through the Omega 4 relay to re-capture the base, to restart construction of the Human Reaper.

It would be a meaningless waste of Reapers. By the time they could actually make another Human Reaper, the war would already be over and they could just make a new Collector Base.

So Renegade is the ME canon path?

I neither said that nor did what I say in any way imply that. Retribution is independent of the Collector Base decision.

The effort to harvest the galaxy would take centuries. Plenty of time. Why build a new base when there is a perfectly useable one just sitting there?

The Reaping takes centuries. Winning the war to determine whether there will be any Reaping at all will be a matter of monthes. Why diminish your forces over something that can easily be blown up by the people aboard (or, with quantum entanglement, by people a galaxy away) when doing so is completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive to the efforts to win the war?

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I neither said that nor did what I say in any way imply that. Retribution is independent of the Collector Base decision.

No I know, but not every playthorugh will be according to canon. My theory was based off the Renegade path of securing the base and giving it to TIM.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reaping takes centuries. Winning the war to determine whether there will be any Reaping at all will be a matter of monthes. Why diminish your forces over something that can easily be blown up by the people aboard (or, with quantum entanglement, by people a galaxy away) when doing so is completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive to the efforts to win the war?

The Reapers have no short supply of confidence, they believe they have already won the war. While earth does hold a significant portion of the total human population, the millions on the colonies would be enough to resume and complete production.

TIM doesn't seem like the type who would so readily destroy the Collector base after going through all that trouble to secure it in the first place. Maybe, if he had salvaged all useful tech and copied all the info from the databanks. Not sure how though, at the end of ME2 Shepard is arrested and the SR2 confiscated.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I neither said that nor did what I say in any way imply that. Retribution is independent of the Collector Base decision.

No I know, but not every playthorugh will be according to canon. My theory was based off the Renegade path of securing the base and giving it to TIM.

In which case we still know that TIM didn't set up in the Collector Base because he set up on on the Collector Base because he was on a different space station in between being on the Minute Man station.

Source being Retribution.

The Reapers have no short supply of confidence, they believe they have already won the war. While earth does hold a significant portion of the total human population, the millions on the colonies would be enough to resume and complete production.

Supposition and a reliance on tactical idiocy in favor of a non-necessary non-strategic target?

Yeah, that flies far.

TIM doesn't seem like the type who would so readily destroy the Collector base after going through all that trouble to secure it in the first place. Maybe, if he had salvaged all useful tech and copied all the info from the databanks. Not sure how though, at the end of ME2 Shepard is arrested and the SR2 confiscated.

What's 'so readily' about it? It's a failsafe for a situation so obvious that you and everyone else have considered it: the Reaper arrival into the galaxy, and an attempt to recapture the Collector Base.

ME2 does not end with Shepard arrested or the SR2 Confiscated. ME3 begins with that, but there's a significant time-gap of two months between the 'canonical*Arrival DLC and ME3, while there was a year's gap between the Suicide Mission and Retribution.

*Canonical in the sense that the Mass Effect timeline presumes Arrival two months before ME3, while Retribution is a year after ME2 but before ME3, even though Arrival can be played before the Suicide Mission.

[88mphSlayer]

Seboist wrote...

I just hope the reason why Cerberus goes after Shep isn't some predictable "TIM is indoctrinated!" mickey mouse plot.

the nanomachines made him do it

[artsangel]

thurmanator692 wrote...

I'm still all for learning that they reapers need Shepard to quickly exerminate all species or whatever, hence the reason they want him alive in 2. TIM learns this, and regaurdless of past experience with Shepard, TIM sends folks after him

Agreed. Harbinger was always interested in Shepard personally and wanted to take him alive. The game keeps telling us that Shepard is 'special' and is always miraculously surviving things that would kill anybody else.

I think TIM discovers why Shepard is so important to the Reapers (possibly from collector base data if you are a renegade, or from somewhere else if not), and that killing him is a quick & easy way to stall (but probably not stop) their path of destruction.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In which case we still know that TIM didn't set up in the Collector Base because he set up on on the Collector Base because he was on a different space station in between being on the Minute Man station.

Source being Retribution.

I wonder if the indoctrination signal can be sent through the quantum entaglement communication system?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Supposition and a reliance on tactical idiocy in favor of a non-necessary non-strategic target?

Yeah, that flies far.

The Reapers decided that for some reason Earth is a priority target, so why not?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What's 'so readily' about it? It's a failsafe for a situation so obvious that you and everyone else have considered it: the Reaper arrival into the galaxy, and an attempt to recapture the Collector Base.

ME2 does not end with Shepard arrested or the SR2 Confiscated. ME3 begins with that, but there's a significant time-gap of two months between the 'canonical*Arrival DLC and ME3, while there was a year's gap between the Suicide Mission and Retribution.

*Canonical in the sense that the Mass Effect timeline presumes Arrival two months before ME3, while Retribution is a year after ME2 but before ME3, even though Arrival can be played before the Suicide Mission.

By readily, I mean not without a fight. Where does it say there is a two month gap?

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

I wonder if the indoctrination signal can be sent through the quantum entaglement communication system?

No.

The Reapers decided that for some reason Earth is a priority target, so why not?

As both the home-planet and location of military/economic power, and location of 99%+ of the human population they wish to Ascend, Earth is both a priority military target (a center of galactic strength) and a strategic target (an attack on Earth having been foreshadowed as needed for the Collector plans of finishing a Reaper.

By readily, I mean not without a fight.

Fight as the Reapers approach, blow up as they arrive. Not hard: indoctrination is hardly instantaneous.

Where does it say there is a two month gap?

ME3 articles to date. Check Phaedon's ME3 confirmed feature thread, specifically under the 'story' section (if you don't mind more spoilers).

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As both the home-planet and location of military/economic power, and location of 99%+ of the human population they wish to Ascend, Earth is both a priority military target (a center of galactic strength) and a strategic target (an attack on Earth having been foreshadowed as needed for the Collector plans of finishing a Reaper.

Despite that, one planet with one small fleet is a greater priority than the Citadel, with all it's abilities? If they take the Citadel first, they can shut down the relays to make sure that none of the other species can come to the human's aide.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Fight as the Reapers approach, blow up as they arrive. Not hard: indoctrination is hardly instantaneous.

If they exerted maximum influence, it would create confusion amongst the defenders. The greater the exertion, the less free will of the subject. A few hundred Reapers all exerting at once could overwhelm enough to make sure the self destruct doesn't happen.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Despite that, one planet with one small fleet is a greater priority than the Citadel, with all it's abilities? If they take the Citadel first, they can shut down the relays to make sure that none of the other species can come to the human's aide.

If we ignore that the organics have Reaper IFFs which can and have been duplicated and can be distributed, sure. If we don't ignore that, then the Citadel loses much of its value.

Not, mind you, that we have any sign that the Reapers don't attack the Citadel as well. Or that the Alliance homeworld, on which 99+% of the population lives and which is either one of the four most powerful forces in the galaxy or THE galactic power, can in any way be called a 'small' fleet.

If they exerted maximum influence, it would create confusion amongst the defenders. The greater the exertion, the less free will of the subject. A few hundred Reapers all exerting at once could overwhelm enough to make sure the self destruct doesn't happen.

Citation being... non-existent.

Indoctrination has always been a time-intensive procedure. Even 'quick' indoctrination has never been implied to be in terms of hours, let alone minutes. We've never heard or seen any such signs from such disorientation, not on Eden Prime, not anywhere in Virmire, not during the Battle of the Citadel, not on the Derilect Reaper, not in the N7 indoctrination device mission, not on the Collector Base, and not even from Object Rho.

Not a single indoctrination experience has ever supported that sort of effect... nor have you provided any convincing reason why an organic defender on base would have to be the one to detonate. A VI could do it. An AI could do it. TIM, halfway across the galaxy with nothing but a quantum entanglement device and a trigger button, could do it.

[Chuvvy]

Indoctrination is becoming a magical plot point now. It was interesting in ME1, in ME2 it was getting tiring, if they do it to explain TIM it'll dumb. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

[Raiil]

I always felt that there's an aspect of TIM that's more pro-Cerberus than pro-human, exactly. Not that I doubt that TIM believes he's doing what's necessary to ensure human domination (not just survival), and that's where Shepard could be a problem. TIM doesn't need to be indoctrinated to know that Shepard's not just a wild card, they're a loose cannon with popularity. Shep's got influence.


Can't speak for all Shepards, of course, but mine really isn't in it for humanity, so much as she cares about keeping the galaxy intact; politics is a game she plays when she's forced to, but things like shipping rights and so on aren't something she cares about.

Really, there's going to have to be two or three options that explain why TIM is after us: 'not pro-human enough' 'cost me monies' 'accidently the whole collector base' that can be funneled into TIM's reaction.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If we ignore that the organics have Reaper IFFs which can and have been duplicated and can be distributed, sure. If we don't ignore that, then the Citadel loses much of its value.

Not, mind you, that we have any sign that the Reapers don't attack the Citadel as well. Or that the Alliance homeworld, on which 99+% of the population lives and which is either one of the four most powerful forces in the galaxy or THE galactic power, can in any way be called a 'small' fleet.

A few hundred ships, which include a few dreadnoughts, against the 1000+ Reaper fleet which is comprised almost entirely of dreadnoughts. Yeah, the Alliance fleet is small. We have a IFF, while duplicating and distrubuting it is possible, you have to ask why even do it? Theres no real reason to.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Citation being... non-existent.

Indoctrination has always been a time-intensive procedure. Even 'quick' indoctrination has never been implied to be in terms of hours, let alone minutes. We've never heard or seen any such signs from such disorientation, not on Eden Prime, not anywhere in Virmire, not during the Battle of the Citadel, not on the Derilect Reaper, not in the N7 indoctrination device mission, not on the Collector Base, and not even from Object Rho.

Not a single indoctrination experience has ever supported that sort of effect... nor have you provided any convincing reason why an organic defender on base would have to be the one to detonate. A VI could do it. An AI could do it. TIM, halfway across the galaxy with nothing but a quantum entanglement device and a trigger button, could do it.

The Collector base is a Reaper artifact, which have a tendancy to indoctrinate those when a Reaper gets close enough. The field would be up and running before those on the station even saw a Reaper approaching, and with no way to detect such a field they wouldn't know they were under its effects.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

A few hundred ships, which include a few dreadnoughts, against the 1000+ Reaper fleet which is comprised almost entirely of dreadnoughts. Yeah, the Alliance fleet is small.

Besides the 'picking numbers out of thin air', the Alliance fleet at Earth is not necessarily a small fleet by the galactic standards of what there is to otherwise fight... which would be the only relevant comparison for calling the Alliance forces small compared so some superior fleet the Reapers could attack instead.

We have a IFF, while duplicating and distrubuting it is possible, you have to ask why even do it? Theres no real reason to.

...Reapers plausibly shutting down the relays isn't Reason to hand-out means to mitigate just that? That's pretty idiotic.

The Collector base is a Reaper artifact, which have a tendancy to indoctrinate those when a Reaper gets close enough. The field would be up and running before those on the station even saw a Reaper approaching, and with no way to detect such a field they wouldn't know they were under its effects.

Yes, there are ways to detect an Indoctrination field, and more relevantly the indoctrination effect one a person.

No, you have not addressed any of the points about how indoctrinated defenders can be entirely avoided.

[Kaedan94]

corporal doody wrote...

Indoctrinated? no way. I think TIM is bads*** bonkers. he has lost touch with humanity.

but the big question for me is...why go through the effort to bring Shep back..then want to kill him.

Because TIM was using Shepard for one specific purpose... get through the Omega-4 relay and take over the Collector Base. 

If you went along with the plan, then he would want to get rid of you to "tie off loose ends".

If you went against the plan, then you add being really pissed off to that.