225 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard didn't even know what the Conduit was.

That isn't a reason to ignore it. Saren had delayed invasion simply on the basis of not having found it yet. There was plenty of evidence of that up to that point right from Tali's recording.

What was the arguement against investigation? Possible war with a sector the Alliance already claims and patrols with warships?

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

What was the arguement against investigation? Possible war with a sector the Alliance already claims and patrols with warships?

Are you talking about investigating Ilos?  Ilos is well within the Terminus, and well away from the Skyllian Verge, which is where the Alliance actually had made territorial claims. They certainly didn't patrol out where Ilos was.  And the Verge was considered part of Council Space.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 mai 2011 - 02:28 .

[corporal doody]

but wasnt illos surrounded by a fleet of geth ships?

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

What was the arguement against investigation? Possible war with a sector the Alliance already claims and patrols with warships?

Are you talking about investigating Ilos?  Ilos is well within the Terminus, and well away from the Skyllian Verge, which is where the Alliance actually had made territorial claims. They certainly didn't patrol out where Ilos was.  And the Verge was considered part of Council Space.

And yet we know in ME2 that there are human worlds there, as well as Illium, which is not a pirate haven. The Blitz happened though because of anti pirate patrols and was launched from Terminus into the Verge, meaning the Terminus systems were already objecting to Alliance ships in the area. So while I concede that the Alliance don't claim the Terminus region directly, they already skirmish with the region. It is unlikely a single frigate would escallate anything especially in the middle of an obvious ongoing Geth invasion. Based on what we know of the map from ME2, wouldn't Geth have been hitting the Terminus systems on their way through to the Traverse anyway?

[Moiaussi]

corporal doody wrote...

but wasnt illos surrounded by a fleet of geth ships?

Which the Normandy's stealth was completely effective against. And a fleet of Geth was justification for a scout ship being there. It was a fleet of Terminus pirates the Council were falsely afraid of.

[JunMadine]

All that is good and all but can anyone tell me why on Earth did Anderson think letting Udina take over as councilor seem like a good idea? He knows about the reapers and he knows Udina does not acknowledge they exist. Udina is going to be a problem in ME3.

[didymos1120]

JunMadine wrote...

All that is good and all but can anyone tell me why on Earth did Anderson think letting Udina take over as councilor seem like a good idea? He knows about the reapers and he knows Udina does not acknowledge they exist. Udina is going to be a problem in ME3.

What makes you think he did?  Maybe Udina did his thing and got the Alliance to appoint him instead.

[JunMadine]

didymos1120 wrote...

JunMadine wrote...

All that is good and all but can anyone tell me why on Earth did Anderson think letting Udina take over as councilor seem like a good idea? He knows about the reapers and he knows Udina does not acknowledge they exist. Udina is going to be a problem in ME3.

What makes you think he did?  Maybe Udina did his thing and got the Alliance to appoint him instead.

Maybe I wish this would be made more clear.  The book just calls him councilor and Anderson as admiral.  Maybe if we are lucky ME3 will clarify.

Of course this could be a way to justify Anderson as a squad member.

[Merchant2006]

Well Udina might be a moron but I don't think he's as far as incompetant. He's actually pretty damn good at being a politician, even fills the moron and hated person position really well.

[Moiaussi]

It could just be that without Shepard endorsing Anderson (or worse, rumours that Shepard was working with terrorists), Udina got elected or appointed to the post. Cerberus manipulation of the democratic system could have been a factor too, since with Udina as councellor acting like a Council toady, it was easier for Cerberus to promote itself as the solution.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard didn't even know what the Conduit was.

That isn't a reason to ignore it. Saren had delayed invasion simply on the basis of not having found it yet. There was plenty of evidence of that up to that point right from Tali's recording.

What was the arguement against investigation? Possible war with a sector the Alliance already claims and patrols with warships?

First of all, Attican Traverse =/= Terminus Systems.

And the prohibition came from the Council. Udina had nothing to do with it, except that by convincing the Council he would be able to handle it, he saved Shepard and the Normandy from the possible more sereve and restrictive measures.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 mai 2011 - 08:46 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

First of all, Attican Traverse =/= Terminus Systems.

I was already corrected on that.

And the prohibition came from the Council. Udina had nothing to do with it, except that by convincing the Council he would be able to handle it, he saved Shepard and the Normandy from the possible more sereve and restrictive measures.

Udina didn't convince the Council of anything. The Normandy was docked in the Alliance Embassy, so it was legally on Alliance soil. It wasn't a Council ship. Even if they didn't send Shepard, the Council couldn't have stopped the Normandy from going under alternative command.

In fact, the Council arguement against sending the Normandy was that they didn't believe Shepard could be discrete, citing Vermire, completely ignoring the fact that the nuke was the STG recommendation. They could have sent the Normandy out under alternative command. Instead they completely dismissed the conduit as a hoax, and assumed that all they had to do was park a scary fleet at the Citadel. Even without Sovereign firing a shot they nearly lost.

The fact remains that Udina forsook his duty to protect the Alliance in favour of sucking up to the Council. He could have advocated alternatives to sending Shepard personally. The Normandy was still the right ship. Shepard would have been on the Citadel when it was attacked, so the game would still have gone about the same without the Ilos mission. Or Shepard could have been along with someone the Council trusted more in command. Instead of taking the risks seriously, Udina followed the Council's lead instead of the Alliance's and rolling over to play toady.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard didn't even know what the Conduit was.

That isn't a reason to ignore it.

It's every reason to to do just that in lieu of other considerations, at least for a time. No leader can simply throw out any and all other concerns on the basis of an unknown.

To do so would be... incompetent.

Investigating eventually? Sure. Investigating right now? Not necessary at all.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's every reason to to do just that in lieu of other considerations, at least for a time. No leader can simply throw out any and all other concerns on the basis of an unknown.

To do so would be... incompetent.

Investigating eventually? Sure. Investigating right now? Not necessary at all.

In the middle of a hot war, when talking about sending out a single recon vessel that would be of minor use in the event of an attack that they don't actually think is going to happen because of their scary fleet, now would seem to be the time to investigate a possible enemy superweapon.

You remind me of the Admiral Milosovich inspection on the Citadel, with the Admiral in charge of a recon fleet complaining that the Normandy doesn't have the firepower of a cruiser. Recon is not something you do 'when time permits.' It is something you do in advance, so you know what you are facing. Waiting until the battle to find out defeats the whole purpose and advantage of good recon.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 02 mai 2011 - 10:05 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

The fact remains that Udina forsook his duty to protect the Alliance in favour of sucking up to the Council. He could have advocated alternatives to sending Shepard personally.

Protect the Alliance from what? From the imminent Saren's attack on the Citadel, which would allow the Alliance to prove its value to the Council? (Although the Paragon Shepard would eventually botch this by giving the 5th Fleet an ill advice).

Moiaussi wrote...



The Normandy was still the right ship. Shepard would have been on the Citadel when it was attacked, so the game would still have gone about the same without the Ilos mission. Or Shepard could have been along with someone the Council trusted more in command. Instead of taking the risks seriously, Udina followed the Council's lead instead of the Alliance's and rolling over to play toady.

That's right. Had Shepard stayed on the Citadel, Saren might have never been able to reach the Tower.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...


In the middle of a hot war, when talking about sending out a single recon vessel that would be of minor use in the event of an attack that they don't actually think is going to happen because of their scary fleet, now would seem to be the time to investigate a possible enemy superweapon.

Letting a crazy man go with a recon vessel in the most turbulent, paranoid territory that could escalate with an even bigger war if noticed, in pursuit of something that has no indication or evidence of being any sort of weapon at all?

Pure incompetence to refuse!

You remind me of the Admiral Milosovich inspection on the Citadel, with the Admiral in charge of a recon fleet complaining that the Normandy doesn't have the firepower of a cruiser. Recon is not something you do 'when time permits.' It is something you do in advance, so you know what you are facing. Waiting until the battle to find out defeats the whole purpose and advantage of good recon.

That's nice, Moiaussi, but rather unsupported unless doctrine has changed in the last week or so. Or unless you play by a different military doctrine than most the english-writing world.

Recon is something that is distinctly limited by time availbility. Different time pressures and other factors allow for different types of reconaissance to be performed, and reconaissance is something that is balanced with other preparational needs.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Protect the Alliance from what? From the imminent Saren's attack on the Citadel, which would allow the Alliance to prove its value to the Council? (Although the Paragon Shepard would eventually botch this by giving the 5th Fleet an ill advice).

Why yes, that very attack. if the Normandy hadn't been diverted to the Citadel, Shepard would have gotten to Illos before Saren. Even if diverted and simply sent out again immediately, even with alternative command it might have gotten there first.

That's right. Had Shepard stayed on the Citadel, Saren might have never been able to reach the Tower.

But if the Normandy hadn't been delayed, with or without Shepard, Saren could have been stopped on Illos.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Letting a crazy man go with a recon vessel in the most turbulent, paranoid territory that could escalate with an even bigger war if noticed, in pursuit of something that has no indication or evidence of being any sort of weapon at all?

Pure incompetence to refuse!

And we were getting along so well in your AU thread....

They didn't have to leave the 'crazy man' in charge. As I said, if they didn't trust Shepard's command they could have sent the Normandy out with someone else in charge. Note that they never actually request any actual medical examination of Shepard, merely declare him crazy because he is saying things they don't want to hear.

That's nice, Moiaussi, but rather unsupported unless doctrine has changed in the last week or so. Or unless you play by a different military doctrine than most the english-writing world.

Recon is something that is distinctly limited by time availbility. Different time pressures and other factors allow for different types of reconaissance to be performed, and reconaissance is something that is balanced with other preparational needs.

The success of Shepard's mission proves there was time availability. Based on your theory of recon doctrine, no recon would be sent ever, since there is always the risk of imminent attack or counterattack. Any assessment of time availability or 'preparational needs' is purely arbitrary without intel, and good recon is a key part of good intel.

In the Council's own words, there was no concern of time availability given they didn't think Saren would be stupid enough to attack the Citadel fleet.

Your defense here has been to spout doctrine without actually showing how it applies, or showing any actual understanding of said doctrine. I know from our other discussions that you can be much more rational than that. You might have a case, but at the momment I don't see it.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council had no faith in you, Moiaussi. After your continued ranting and the WMD dropped on Virmire they didn't think you were mentally stable. Why send a crazy person on such a delicate assignment?

In *me*? I am not Shepard, I just play him in a game.

Sending Shepard was not the only option. If you had bothered to read my posts you would know that I suggested alternatives such as sending the Normandy out with alternative command, with or without Shepard.

Also, you completely ignore the fact using the nuke was an STG plan. An experienced SPG captain felt it was the best option and that the situation warranted that level of force. Udina could have pointed that out,and asked what option the Council would have advocated.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council didn't feel the need to recon, they had entire fleets protecting the associated relays.

I'd have sent recon, but I'm not the Council.

And their lack of knowledge nearly cost them extinction. That is not an arguement in favour of the Council or Udina.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's not an argument in favor of the Council but it has nothing to do with Udina. It wasn't his decision. Remember, he was the one who wanted the Council to send in the fleet from the very beginning.

He could have advocated in favour of Shepard or advocated alternative options. Shepard was a Spectre, so under their authority, although I suppose he could have resigned. The Normandy, however, was an Alliance vessel docked in an Alliance port (the embassy). The Council had no authority over the vessel or its crew.

Udina chose to back the Council rather than even suggest other options.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Hepzi3 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

You can't arrest someone for that, though.

Fire, maybe.

I think you can. Especially with the special circumstances.

I keep reiterating myself. In ME, Udina's job is to project humanities best interests,he has never and probably never will do this.

I really cant argue my point right,its 4:13 AM I havent slept yet.

Then it's negligence, which still isn't illegal. Perhaps if he was... "criminally negligent".