225 réponses à ce sujet

[1Minsc1]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

After the appointment, Udina took a cooperative approach. What did that get the Alliance, other than potential extinction?

It kept humanity's first Spectre from being kicked out of the organization and shaming his species.

You can't hold it against Udina that he didn't kiss your ass and suck your toes like Anderson did because you never once had any compelling proof of a Reaper attack. 

There is absolutely no basis to accuse Udina of incompetence. If you want to throw that label around look at the good Captain, not Udina.

agreed
what? and this reaper, sorry geth-ship, attacked the citadel? three people talked to an prothean IV, and then offering an reliable theory to protheans extinction. The fact that there was a hidden relay on the citadel. the new software to block the citadel??? to me this i at least very close to a compelling proof. the council should be arrested to!
and: one volus and one salarian can reveal the keeper-secrets. human/alliance/council scientist could not? the never tried. the council and udina knew that Shep is right, the just don´t want it become official. by that the risk all life in the galaxy, could there be some more incompetence? and if they really not knew they not able to put the pieces together. for that: incompetent

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 03 mai 2011 - 10:25 .

[termokanden]

But in ME2, they'd have to at least give you the benefit of the doubt. The Citadel was quite obviously attacked by something that isn't like any Geth ship anyone has ever seen before. In ME2 they just pretend it must have been some wild coincidence, and the man/woman who predicted the whole thing and repeatedly tried to warn them must just be a crazy person.

Of course they do help you to some degree simply by not having you arrested (after all, you're working for the enemy), but I don't think it's quite good enough.

[termokanden]

Not saying there's proof. But they blatantly ignore Shepard, and that's the part I consider incompetent. Shepard may very well be a crazy person from their point of view, but not at least trying to find out more from the person who predicted the first attack seems absurd.

They shouldn't just blindly accept everything Shepard says, but they should at the very least accept Shepard as a possible source of information. They always have the option of deciding it's useless information, but past experiences indicate that it might be a good idea to give it a try at least.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:23 .

[termokanden]

Saphra Deden wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Not saying there's proof.

Well without proof you aren't getting jack**** from anyone important.

You know, investigations are there for a reason. If there are good indications of something being horribly wrong, you investigate. If you find proof, you react. It's not in general a good policy to just sit around and just hope for a proof to magically appear out of thin air.

And in particular, if something already DID go horribly wrong, you find out why so it doesn't happen again. Simply saying "oh that's the end of that" is incredibly shortsighted

Have a nice day.

Why thank you!

"Shepard may very well be a crazy person"

You undermine your own argument.

Makes no sense.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:29 .

[termokanden]

So after the Citadel was attacked out of the blue, you don't think it's reasonable to try to find out why? And perhaps to ask the guy who warned about an attack?

Of course you could perhaps explain it with what is NOT represented in the game. You don't see what kind of investigations were carried out without your knowledge. All I'm saying is I would at least ask Shepard. They could determine afterwards if what Shepard is talking about now is nonsense.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:33 .

[termokanden]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They did try to find out why and they did ask the guy who "warned about the attack". Nothing concrete came up and then that guy got himself killed.

And when Shepard appears later and starts talking about another attack? That's the part I think deserves a bit of attention from a reasonable Council.

The question is of course again how much is being investigated/discussed without involving Shepard. The game seems to want to tell you that it's very little, but we could speculate that there's more going on.

Here's a much more convenient explanation the Council can use: Sovereign was a geth ship and Saren used it to attack the Citadel so he could overthrow the Council and rule the galaxy.

No mythical Reapers or galactic apocalypse needed.

Inded, and that's what it seems they have decided on already. Even if they have no proof of that either.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:37 .

[didymos1120]

termokanden wrote...

Inded, and that's what it seems they have decided on already. Even if they have no proof of that either.

Proof isn't the point.  Preponderance of evidence is. 

[termokanden]

didymos1120 wrote...

Proof isn't the point.  Preponderance of evidence is. 

It is the point. They don't know exactly what happened. Shepard's word has to carry some weight after it though, and since they never actually did find out what happened, this should be of interest to them.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

And when Shepard appears later and starts talking about another attack? That's the part I think deserves a bit of attention from a reasonable Council.

And Shepard's evidence that this new attack is by the Reapers and not one of the many other threats of the galaxy is... husk technology? Which the Geth had? And which is only proof of Reaper involvement if you presuppose Sovereign was a Reaper in the first place?

Shepard came back talking about the same things he died on.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

It is the point. They don't know exactly what happened. Shepard's word has to carry some weight after it though, and since they never actually did find out what happened, this should be of interest to them.

Shepard's word doesn't 'have' to carry anything when it isn't supported by other sources. So much as it did, however, showing interest and investigating his claims turned up... nothing to support Shepard's word.

[termokanden]

I agree that they shouldn't just take Shepard's word for it. But the last time Shepard warned about a Reaper attack, the Citadel was indeed attacked. Doesn't sound like a good idea to ignore it this time.

I'm not at all expecting them to send an army. But it warrants an investigation at least. Not necessarily by Shepard though.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

I agree that they shouldn't just take Shepard's word for it. But the last time Shepard warned about a Reaper attack, the Citadel was indeed attacked. Doesn't sound like a good idea to ignore it this time.

It was also attacked by a Geth fleet, not a Reaper fleet, and the Reaper involved couldn't even be distinguished as something that wasn't Geth.

This would be equivalent to you screaming that the Russians are coming to attack the town, only to fend off some bandits. Yes, you were right about the attac, but not the nature or manner.

I'm not at all expecting them to send an army. But it warrants an investigation at least. Not necessarily by Shepard though.

They did investigate. They investigated Sovereign's remains. They investigated Ilos and Vigil. They investigated Virmire well before Shepard got there, and the Alliance and Council have investigated the vanished colonies after the fact.

The investigations have not supported Shepard's claims. And at this point, Shepard's claims don't even sound coherent: an entire long established organic race is now to be presumed to be the direct hand of these omni-genocidal machines? Why would any organic race do such a thing?

You aren't making much sense, Shepard.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They did investigate. They investigated Sovereign's remains. They investigated Ilos and Vigil. They investigated Virmire well before Shepard got there, and the Alliance and Council have investigated the vanished colonies after the fact.

A lot of this was before ME2. But I'm actually wondering now because I can't completely remember: how much do we hear about the Council's investigations into the colonies disappearing?

I remember the part about a swift but confused response - not an investigation. I also remember the Council not wanting to become involved in a purely human matter, but it's this was a comment about something else (it's one of those things I've heard in the background so many times I somehow tune it out). Maybe I'm forgetting something.

If they did investigate, it's funny they didn't find anything at all. What about the evidence from the Veetor for example? He basically caught the Collectors abducting humans. Not necessarily for the reapers, but still.

The investigations have not supported Shepard's claims. And at this point, Shepard's claims don't even sound coherent: an entire long established organic race is now to be presumed to be the direct hand of these omni-genocidal machines? Why would any organic race do such a thing?

You aren't making much sense, Shepard.

Indeed. And I guess that's why there is some reason behind them completely rejecting your claims. But on the other hand, they are somewhat undermining their own agent. There is reason to be cautious at least. It seems from what they say that they're really just happy to leave it alone and forget about it.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 12:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

A lot of this was before ME2. But I'm actually wondering now because I can't completely remember: how much do we hear about the Council's investigations into the colonies disappearing?

They send people to figure out what's happening after the fact, only no evidence remains. The aliens generall leave it up to the Council as 'a human problem', but the Alliance is too distracted (too weak or too busy) to pay much attention until it (is led into) goes to Horizon. As the incidents grow to Horizon, the STG/Renegade Council Fleets are sent in to actively investigate.

If they did investigate, it's funny they didn't find anything at all. What about the evidence from the Veetor for example? He basically caught the Collectors abducting humans. Not necessarily for the reapers, but still.

Not the Reapers at all, in any sense.

The Galaxy's a dangerous place: why assume any particular danger 'proves' the existence of a Reaper threat they are in no way clearly linked to. The Council never disputes that the Collectors are abducting Human colonies, Shepard just has no support to claim it proves they're related to the Reapers... nor does it prove the Reapers in any way.

Indeed. And I guess that's why there is some reason behind them completely rejecting your claims. But on the other hand, they are somewhat undermining their own agent. There is reason to be cautious at least. It seems from what they say that they're really just happy to leave it alone and forget about it.

They don't reject all your claims. Nor do they simply leave it alone: they reject your claims of the Reapers, and leave the problem to the Alliance to deal with.

The Council never disputes or denies that the Collectors are abducting human colonies, any more than they dispute or deny that Saren and the Geth intend to be a threat (once you find some proof of Saren's betrayal).

Shepard comes in about how Human colonies are abducted by Collectors? Troubling in a galaxy of troubles, but hardly apocolyptic stuff. Leave it to the Alliance to protect their Terminus colonies.

Shepard comes in claiming that the Collectors are Reaper pawns, without any proof of such connection and without even there being enough proof of the Reapers at all? That's no basis to react in hasty manners in the Terminus.

[didymos1120]

termokanden wrote...

A lot of this was before ME2. But I'm actually wondering now because I can't completely remember: how much do we hear about the Council's investigations into the colonies disappearing?

"At other colonies, official investigators got there first. Sometimes looters or salvage teams as well."

[lolwut666]

Udina is cool because he is not a tool.

He is not loyal to anyone besides humanity. He is not loyal to Shepard, the Alliance, Anderson - nobody.

He'll backstab all of them if that means humanity will gain more influence in the galaxy.

That's what he did in ME1, and that's why he was nominated to a Council position, and why he remains as Anderson's advisor if he didn't get to be councillor.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 12:59 .

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They send people to figure out what's happening after the fact, only no evidence remains. The aliens generall leave it up to the Council as 'a human problem', but the Alliance is too distracted (too weak or too busy) to pay much attention until it (is led into) goes to Horizon. As the incidents grow to Horizon, the STG/Renegade Council Fleets are sent in to actively investigate.

Right so that'd be the STG in my game. It has been quite a while since I played renegade.

The Galaxy's a dangerous place: why assume any particular danger 'proves' the existence of a Reaper threat they are in no way clearly linked to. The Council never disputes that the Collectors are abducting Human colonies, Shepard just has no support to claim it proves they're related to the Reapers... nor does it prove the Reapers in any way.

There is indeed no proof that links it to the Reapers. That has always been Shepards problem really.

They don't reject all your claims. Nor do they simply leave it alone: they reject your claims of the Reapers, and leave the problem to the Alliance to deal with.

Rejecting the claim about the Reapers is understandable, but leaving it to the Alliance I'm not so sure about. I have to be careful that I'm not saying too much from the player's perspective though or in hindsight.

The Council never disputes or denies that the Collectors are abducting human colonies, any more than they dispute or deny that Saren and the Geth intend to be a threat (once you find some proof of Saren's betrayal).

Shepard comes in about how Human colonies are abducted by Collectors? Troubling in a galaxy of troubles, but hardly apocolyptic stuff. Leave it to the Alliance to protect their Terminus colonies.

Shepard comes in claiming that the Collectors are Reaper pawns, without any proof of such connection and without even there being enough proof of the Reapers at all? That's no basis to react in hasty manners in the Terminus.

Oh I didn't expect them to react in a hasty manner, or to send in the fleet or something like that. Just to give Shepard a bit of time to explain. And perhaps to be a bit more worried about what actually happened when they do not know for sure.

I will pay extra attention to this part on my next playthrough. I am realizing I need to remember EXACTLY what they are saying instead of just the general attitude.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 01:04 .

[Antivenger]

Udina had a better "We Fight Reapers" speech, than Anderson. That was mostly due to his voice, though. I did not bother listening to the actual content.

For a saved council play-through: Udina should be made Councillor to balance them out.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Rejecting the claim about the Reapers is understandable, but leaving it to the Alliance I'm not so sure about. I have to be careful that I'm not saying too much from the player's perspective though or in hindsight.

It is completely typical of the Paragon Council's history of relations with Humans and other races. The Geth invasion was also handed off onto the Alliance, and that was when actual Alliance colonies were attacked.

Oh I didn't expect them to react in a hasty manner, or to send in the fleet or something like that. Just to give Shepard a bit of time to explain. And perhaps to be a bit more worried about what actually happened when they do not know for sure.

I will pay extra attention to this part on my next playthrough. I am realizing I need to remember EXACTLY what they are saying instead of just the general attitude.

What, exactly is Shepard going to explain that more or less isn't already? 

Shepard's explanations rest on a belief of the Reaper threat. The Council's investigations have never supported Shepard's claims.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It is completely typical of the Paragon Council's history of relations with Humans and other races. The Geth invasion was also handed off onto the Alliance, and that was when actual Alliance colonies were attacked.

Perhaps a good reason for me to find out if I'm more happy with the other version. Never really gave that much of a chance. Mainly because some renegade choices annoyed me a bit.

What, exactly is Shepard going to explain that more or less isn't already?

Early in the game, there's not that much. Later in the game, you actually have some substantial new information. Unfortunately, I will have to admit that I think the conversation is supposed to take place in the very beginning of the game. There's no real opportunity to go back and say "look at this video from a derelict reaper/collector base".

But like I said, I need to remember exactly what the Council says in that conversation. I remember it sounding like they really aren't the slightest bit interested.