225 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Udina is doing an useful job as Anderson's fixer and advisor.

He should be arrested for trying to form a human tyranny at the end of Mass Effect 1. But this is not my problem since I always save the Destiny Ascension

[termokanden]

I'm still wondering about Udina. Can't say I'm a fan, but I've thought more carefully about it, and it's hard to say what his motivations are (although I thought he seemed quite power-hungry at first). I'm not really sure Anderson is the right choice either. To be honest I chose him because he's a "nice guy" and a personal friend of Shepard. That doesn't mean he has the right qualifications.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 02:22 .

[GodWood]

Barquiel wrote...
He should be arrested for trying to form a human tyranny at the end of Mass Effect 1.

Udina speaks of having humans seize control.
You say he was trying to form a human tyranny and thus should be arrested.


Irony?

[Barquiel]

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
He should be arrested for trying to form a human tyranny at the end of Mass Effect 1.

Udina speaks of having humans seize control.
You say he was trying to form a human tyranny and thus should be arrested.


Irony?

"Spectres form an elite group selected from a number of different species, and their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary."

Udina's plans threaten galactic stability.

There should be an option to shoot/arrest him.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...
It kept humanity's first Spectre from being kicked out of the organization and shaming his species.

You can't hold it against Udina that he didn't kiss your ass and suck your toes like Anderson did because you never once had any compelling proof of a Reaper attack. 

There is absolutely no basis to accuse Udina of incompetence. If you want to throw that label around look at the good Captain, not Udina.

Kicked out over what, precisely? Talk of Reapers? The Reapers were incidental. There didn't have to be Reapers for there to be a threat to the Council.

You don't think that appointing a Spectre then immediately kicking them out would have reflected badly on the Council too?

[GodWood]

Barquiel wrote...
"Spectres form an elite group selected from a number of different species, and their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary."

Udina's plans threaten galactic stability.

There should be an option to shoot/arrest him.

He speaks of having humans seize control you demand that he be arrested/killed for doing so.

You are silencing someone for merely speaking.
This is oppressive, which is strongly associated with tyranny.

I couldn't care if you can justify it, you're commiting the act against the guy who is 'speaking' of doing it.

That's got to be irony or something

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

Early in the game, there's not that much. Later in the game, you actually have some substantial new information. Unfortunately, I will have to admit that I think the conversation is supposed to take place in the very beginning of the game. There's no real opportunity to go back and say "look at this video from a derelict reaper/collector base".

Videos aren't proof in the Mass Effect universe because of the ease/availability of indistinguishable forgery, which Cerberus has. Since the Council thinks that Cerberus is leading around Shepard in the first place...

Nothing in the Collector Base proves the Reapers as Shepard portrays them. Not only does the idea of a current organic race building them not fit any prior implications on Shepard's part, but the Human Reaper doesn't even look like Sovereign. Even if it did, if the Geth were able to build such a ship then that doesn't mean the Collectors couldn't as well, because they've always been known to have exceptionally advanced technology.

But like I said, I need to remember exactly what the Council says in that conversation. I remember it sounding like they really aren't the slightest bit interested.

Interested in intervening in the Terminus? No, they aren't. They'll leave that to the Alliance.

[lolwut666]

You shouldn't throw all the blame on Udina.

As a matter of fact, the Council should get most of the blame, because it's their skepticism that almost got the galaxy destroyed.

Udina can plan whatever he wants, but in the end his influence pales before the Council's, and he can't influence them any more than they let him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
He should be arrested for trying to form a human tyranny at the end of Mass Effect 1.

Udina speaks of having humans seize control.
You say he was trying to form a human tyranny and thus should be arrested.


Irony?

"Spectres form an elite group selected from a number of different species, and their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary."

Udina's plans threaten galactic stability.

There should be an option to shoot/arrest him.

The only time he ever offers such a thing, Shepard's already decapitated galactic governance and thrown it into instability.

Whereas the Human council does offer another form of stability.

So, in between Shepard throwing the galaxy into chaose to save it, and Udina putting forward a plan to restabilize it, you want to shoot/arrest Udina?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You need more than just "I talked to it". You need physical proof.

It isn't even enough to prove that Sovereign isn't a geth ship. You have to show the Council proof that there are legions of these huge ships "somewhere" in the galaxy waiting to kill us all. Remember, at this point Shepard didn't even know what the Conduit was, that the Citadel was a secret relay, or that the Reapers were in dark space.

All he knew was that Sovereign was a Reaper and the Reapers wiped out the Protheans. He had no physical proof though, just statements from Saren and Sovereign and Liara's theory. That's not enough to launch a war on.

All you actually needed was proof of a threat. Which you had. Geth really were attacking. Saren really did have operations all over the place leading to a chase for the Conduit. Saren didn't even need Sovereign to have been a Reaper to have won at the Citadel. If Shepard hadn't stopped him, the Citadel would have been in his control and the Saren would have had it with the ability to use it to its full potential. That meant that the Geth fleets would have had the use of the relays while the Council fleets would have been isolated.

We also know now that Saren managed all that commanding only 5% of the Geth armed forces. If it had turned out he had the full Geth navy under his command, the Alliance fleet wouldn't have been enough to save the day.

These are risks that the Council failled to investigate, and Udina backed them up.

[didymos1120]

lolwut666 wrote...

As a matter of fact, the Council should get most of the blame, because it's their skepticism that almost got the galaxy destroyed.

And why should they have bought all of Shep's Reaper tales? Objectively speaking, if they had, that would just make them ridiculously credulous.

[lolwut666]

didymos1120 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

As a matter of fact, the Council should get most of the blame, because it's their skepticism that almost got the galaxy destroyed.

And why should they have bought all of Shep's Reaper tales? Objectively speaking, if they had, that would just make them ridiculously credulous.

I'm not saying they should.

This thread is about blaming Udina for most of the bad things that happened, and I'm just arguing that the Council is far more guilty than he is.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 02:51 .

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

We also know now that Saren managed all that commanding only 5% of the Geth armed forces.

Uh, no.  Heretics were 5% of the total geth runtimes.  Depending on how much military hardware was possessed and how many runtimes were allocated to it by both factions, the heretics could have had a larger military force than the true geth.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The only time he ever offers such a thing, Shepard's already decapitated galactic governance and thrown it into instability.

Whereas the Human council does offer another form of stability.

So, in between Shepard throwing the galaxy into chaose to save it, and Udina putting forward a plan to restabilize it, you want to shoot/arrest Udina?

Udina doesn't want to restabilize the galaxy.

Stabilization - Let the turians/salarian appoint new councilors (I guess the asari have to vote). Form a new multiracial council...a matter of days or weeks. But that's not Udina's plan.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Videos aren't proof in the Mass Effect universe because of the ease/availability of indistinguishable forgery, which Cerberus has. Since the Council thinks that Cerberus is leading around Shepard in the first place...

That is indeed a possibility. I have already been wondering why they accepted the evidence against Saren so quickly. Could it not also have been forged just as easily?

Nothing in the Collector Base proves the Reapers as Shepard portrays them. Not only does the idea of a current organic race building them not fit any prior implications on Shepard's part, but the Human Reaper doesn't even look like Sovereign. Even if it did, if the Geth were able to build such a ship then that doesn't mean the Collectors couldn't as well, because they've always been known to have exceptionally advanced technology.

But that does prove that it is of interest to the Council at least I think. That is, if they could be convinced it had not been forged. It is a bit more sinister than just a human colony or two disappearing.

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

As a matter of fact, the Council should get most of the blame, because it's their skepticism that almost got the galaxy destroyed.

And why should they have bought all of Shep's Reaper tales? Objectively speaking, if they had, that would just make them ridiculously credulous.

The fault isn't in lack of acceptance of all of Shepard's claims but in failing to recognize a threat regardless of them. The threat of the Conduit being real and being a weapon is independant of any Reaper threat. This turned out to be real. The threat of the Geth having a larger fleet than they had shown so far was also an independant threat. This also turned out to be real. There was a major Geth fleet and staging area at Illos in addition to the conduit.

Sending a scout ship to investigate, with or without Shepard was a reasonable, common sense precaution, and completely independant of any tales of Reapers. They somehow concluded that if Saren was bluffing about the Reapers, he was therefore bluffing about everything. It is a false conclusion.

Also suggestions that Saren was bluffing about the Conduit assume Saren planted proof of his own guilt, since we actually learned of the conduit from the recording of his conversation with Benezia.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...



Udina doesn't want to restabilize the galaxy.

Stabilization - Let the turians/salarian appoint new councilors (I guess the asari have to vote). Form a new multiracial council...a matter of days or weeks. But that's not Udina's plan.

That's only one way to stabilize the galaxy. That doesn't mean that others don't do the same.

A self-serving stability is still stability. See the entire Council system.

[Dean_the_Young]

termokanden wrote...

That is indeed a possibility. I have already been wondering why they accepted the evidence against Saren so quickly. Could it not also have been forged just as easily?

There was also the fact that the Alliance truly believed it and it all was already pretty much a diplomatic crisis already, with Udina making implications that the Alliance might leave the Council for its 'anti-Human bull****.'

Even back in the first Mass Effect book, Saren knew that the Alliance would have his head if he killed Anderson, a far lesser extent. Politics, as opposed to indisputibility, had a role to play.

But that does prove that it is of interest to the Council at least I think. That is, if they could be convinced it had not been forged. It is a bit more sinister than just a human colony or two disappearing.

Interest in what regards? The Reapers? Hardly.

The Council doesn't dispute human colony abductions are occuring... they simply view it as an internal problem the Humans should take care of, given the nature of the Terminus space.

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

We also know now that Saren managed all that commanding only 5% of the Geth armed forces.

Uh, no.  Heretics were 5% of the total geth runtimes.  Depending on how much military hardware was possessed and how many runtimes were allocated to it by both factions, the heretics could have had a larger military force than the true geth.

The Geth main fleet is estimated at 5k to 10k ships. That was rather a lot more than were at the Citadel, and all we saw of the vast majority of Geth ships were troop transports, and relativly unshielded (you can shoot one down with small arms!). Other than at Illos and later at the Citadel, we never saw nor heard any reports of actual Geth (heretic) fleets. You make a valid point regarding Geth vs Geth mobile units, but the numbers we have now suggest they were reasonably proportional.

[termokanden]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There was also the fact that the Alliance truly believed it and it all was already pretty much a diplomatic crisis already, with Udina making implications that the Alliance might leave the Council for its 'anti-Human bull****.'

I suppose have been a political reason to accept the evidence. Not sure it's a good thing if the Council would accept questionable evidence for other reasons such as this.

The Council doesn't dispute human colony abductions are occuring... they simply view it as an internal problem the Humans should take care of, given the nature of the Terminus space.

You wouldn't find the happenings a little bit more disturbing than slaver or pirate attacks? I guess you could be right and the Council doesn't, but I certainly would.

That said, I can understand why the Council isn't all too happy about dealing with happenings in the Terminus Systems. The conflicts that could arise from this could be disastrous.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 03:19 .

[corporal doody]

Udina didnt want to believe Shep because the Council didnt believe Shep. Even if there was a slim chance Udina believed Shep...he wasnt going to go on a "gut feeling" and defy the council. Udina used Shep to get a foot in the door and didnt want to screw humanity's chance at a bigger piece of the galaxy-pie!

it was all politics man!! nothing more. Shep did his thing. then it was time for the bureaucratic wheels to start spinning. A snap decision wasnt likely to come...and Shep needed to move pronto. Ah well.

Then when a Reaper shows up...they dont know what it is...it may be a Geth ship..but im sure they had to have tested some of the debris. Probably freaked them out. Maybe the keepers picked out the Reaper material specifically and took it somewhere. Maybe the council isnt inclined to believe something that stands out as UNUSUAL until more solid info becomes available. AND IM more than positive they dont want someone causing a panic by running around screaming AN ancient race of giant killer lobsterbug robots are coming to wipe us out.....with no shred of SOLID evidence.

but we all know some humblepie is coming. but thats neither here nor there

Udina is a ******...but incompetent? nah.

[Destroy Raiden_]

He can be fired not arrested you need more grounds then that to arrest someone.

[OmegaXI]

If you come right down to it all the leaders should be tried for gross incompetence, with maybe the exception of Hackett. Anderson, Udina, and the Council could have spent years building up the fleets and forces need for the Reaper War.

[Dean_the_Young]

They could also have spent years plunging the galaxy into a reckless, devastating, Phyric war with the Terminus (or the Turians, if a Human Council) do to a total arms race triggering a war.