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[Fixers0]

LorDC wrote...

1) Cerberus is faction within humanity thus any matters that involve Cerberus are humanity internal matters.

Cerberus is a rough group, and markes as terrorist by both the council and the Alliance after comming several criminal acts.

2) Turians while not being openly hostile to us are at the very least our rivals.

Thats irrelevant, they are an alied nation to Humanity

No nation on Earth in their right minds will allow other nation to mingle with it's internal problems. Why it would it be other way in ME universe?
That's not to mention that Cerberus is actually pro-human organization that has deep ties to the Alliance and any actions against it weaken humanity and involving aliens in this actions has possibility of huge military/political blowback.

Where did you get that.

Modifié par Fixers0, 04 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Fixers0

When did he put personal concerns above the nation's?

By locking down the Normandy so that he would show of to council that het fully agrees with their (highly) questionable decisions.

It's hardly highly questionable: Shepard is making extreme claims, has no proof to support them, and has made clear his/her intent to press an action that's recognized as risking a galactic war... for some alleged artifact that not even Shepard has any clue as to what it does.

It's only questionable in so much as we, the player, know that Shepard is correct. The Council is not us, nor does the Council have the reliance that Bioware wasn't ****ing with us to fall back on to support our belief.

[LorDC]

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...

1) Cerberus is faction within humanity thus any matters that involve Cerberus are humanity internal matters.

Cerberus is a rough group, and markes as terrorist by both the council and the Alliance after comming several criminal acts.

So for example Russia should allow USA troops to go into Chechnya to fight terrorists? There are a lot of examples like this. Turks and kurds. UK and Ireland. Sound ridiculously isn't it? That's extremely naive way of thinking.

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...
2) Turians while not being openly hostile to us are at the very least our rivals.

Thats irrelevant, they are an alied nation to Humanity

Politics don't work that way. No nation could be allied enough to do such things. Turians aren't humanity allies. Revelation clearly showed that those "allied" Turians wouldn't let slip any chance to take advantage of humanity.

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...
No nation on Earth in their right minds will allow other nation to mingle with it's internal problems. Why it would it be other way in ME universe?
That's not to mention that Cerberus is actually pro-human organization that has deep ties to the Alliance and any actions against it weaken humanity and involving aliens in this actions has possibility of huge military/political blowback.

Where did you get that.

Emm... I just played ME a little.

[lolwut666]

Neither Anderson nor Udina are traitors.

Whatever Anderson did, it was for the purpose of protecting humanity and the other species.

Rather than looking at it as a betrayal, it should be considered martyrdom, because he risked being considered a traitor if he was ever caught; but if he didn't do what he did, the consequences would've been severe.

Udina, on the other hand, always plays by the rules and puts humanity's interests above all else.

They're both good at what they do.

Modifié par lolwut666, 04 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[LorDC]

lolwut666 wrote...

Neither Anderson nor Udina are traitors.

Whatever Anderson did, it was for the purpose of protecting humanity and the other species.

Rather than looking at it as a betrayal, it should be considered martyrdom, because he risked being considered a traitor if he was ever caught; but if he didn't do what he did, the consequences would've been severe.

Udina, on the other hand, always plays by the rules and puts humanity's interests above all else.

They're both good at what they do.

Anderson's motives are vindicative of course and I never thought or said that he intended to weaken humanity but his idealism makes him unsuitable to be Councilor.

[Fixers0]

LorDC wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...

1) Cerberus is faction within humanity thus any matters that involve Cerberus are humanity internal matters.

Cerberus is a rough group, and markes as terrorist by both the council and the Alliance after comming several criminal acts.

So for example Russia should allow USA troops to go into Chechnya to fight terrorists? There are a lot of examples like this. Turks and kurds. UK and Ireland. Sound ridiculously isn't it? That's extremely naive way of thinking.

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...
2) Turians while not being openly hostile to us are at the very least our rivals.

Thats irrelevant, they are an alied nation to Humanity

Politics don't work that way. No nation could be allied enough to do such things. Turians aren't humanity allies. Revelation clearly showed that those "allied" Turians wouldn't let slip any chance to take advantage of humanity.

Fixers0 wrote...

LorDC wrote...
No nation on Earth in their right minds will allow other nation to mingle with it's internal problems. Why it would it be other way in ME universe?
That's not to mention that Cerberus is actually pro-human organization that has deep ties to the Alliance and any actions against it weaken humanity and involving aliens in this actions has possibility of huge military/political blowback.

Where did you get that.

Emm... I just played ME a little.

I have not much to say anymore, but i still don't see how do you came to your conclusion,  Cerberus is marked as a terrorist group and has commited various criminal act against both humans and aliens that today still forms a danger to both of them,  therefore any action undertaken against  them, either by humans or by aliens is in the the galaxy's best interest. 

[LorDC]

Fixers0 wrote...
I have not much to say anymore, but i still don't see how do you came to your conclusion,  Cerberus is marked as a terrorist group and has commited various criminal act against both humans and aliens that today still forms a danger to both of them,  therefore any action undertaken against  them, either by humans or by aliens is in the the galaxy's best interest. 

Ahh... your las phrase explains source of your misunderstanding. There is no such thing as "galaxy's best interest". It is only a simulacrum. But humanity's interest is on other hand more or less real thing since our species stand united on galactic political arena. And while Cerberus is not the best thing that happened to humanity allowing turians to go against it hurts humanity as whole.

[lolwut666]

Allowing the turians to go against Cerberus doesn't hurt humanity in the slightest, because Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame.

They aren't even considered part of humanity as a whole. They answer to no government and are considered to be a terrorist organization by every major species in the galaxy; humans included.

Having humans in their ranks does not make Cerberus part of humanity.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fixers0 wrote...

I have not much to say anymore, but i still don't see how do you came to your conclusion,  Cerberus is marked as a terrorist group and has commited various criminal act against both humans and aliens that today still forms a danger to both of them,  therefore any action undertaken against  them, either by humans or by aliens is in the the galaxy's best interest. 

That's not inherent at all, especially in light of how Cerberus is the only organic faction actively preparing for the Reapers, nor does it mean that Anderson's actions can't have caused a much bigger problem than the only he allegedly solved.

[Seboist]

lolwut666 wrote...

Allowing the turians to go against Cerberus doesn't hurt humanity in the slightest, because Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame.

They aren't even considered part of humanity as a whole. They answer to no government and are considered to be a terrorist organization by every major species in the galaxy; humans included.

Having humans in their ranks does not make Cerberus part of humanity.

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

[lolwut666]

Seboist wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Allowing the turians to go against Cerberus doesn't hurt humanity in the slightest, because Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame.

They aren't even considered part of humanity as a whole. They answer to no government and are considered to be a terrorist organization by every major species in the galaxy; humans included.

Having humans in their ranks does not make Cerberus part of humanity.

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Keep telling yourself that.

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

TIM saved humanity from the Collectors, did you?

[LorDC]

lolwut666 wrote...

Allowing the turians to go against Cerberus doesn't hurt humanity in the slightest, because Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame.

They aren't even considered part of humanity as a whole. They answer to no government and are considered to be a terrorist organization by every major species in the galaxy; humans included.

Having humans in their ranks does not make Cerberus part of humanity.

a) Allowing Turians to take actions against Cerberus is even bigger source of shame since through it we openly admit that we are not strong enough to deal with it ourselves.

You contradict yourself: on one hand "Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame" but on other hand "They aren't even considered part of humanity".

c) De jure Cerberus is terrorist organization that has nothing to do with systems Alliance. This very convenient. Especially for Cerberus and Alliance. With it Cerberus can take any blames for it's actions and humanity comes clear out of it. But de facto calling organization that consists almost entirely of humans and seeks pro-human agenda "not part of humanity" is kinda lame.

d) Cerberus has very deep ties with Alliance. It is heavily implied pretty much in every source. Allowing aliens to strike against Cerberus is allowing them to strike against Alliance. What if those turians commando who stormed Cerberus bases found highly classified Alliance research or military data? It would either result in immediate political catastrophe for humanity or gave turians trump card against humanity.

[lolwut666]

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

TIM saved humanity from the Collectors, did you?

He did it to get Reaper tech.

Even the n***s accidentaly did good things.

And it was Shepard who saved humanity from the Collectors. TIM helped him.

[Seboist]

lolwut666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

TIM saved humanity from the Collectors, did you?

He did it to get Reaper tech.

Even the n***s accidentaly did good things.

And it was Shepard who saved humanity from the Collectors. TIM helped him.

TIM wasn't planning on capturing the CB until the very end when EDI told him salvaging it in one piece was possible. You should be ashamed of yourself for slandering such a good man. Shepard owes his entire existence and mission success to him.

[Fixers0]

LorDC wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...
I have not much to say anymore, but i still don't see how do you came to your conclusion,  Cerberus is marked as a terrorist group and has commited various criminal act against both humans and aliens that today still forms a danger to both of them,  therefore any action undertaken against  them, either by humans or by aliens is in the the galaxy's best interest. 

Ahh... your las phrase explains source of your misunderstanding. There is no such thing as "galaxy's best interest". It is only a simulacrum. But humanity's interest is on other hand more or less real thing since our species stand united on galactic political arena. And while Cerberus is not the best thing that happened to humanity allowing turians to go against it hurts humanity as whole.

Since we arrived to the point that were you are saying that wiping out out a terroirst group is bad for humanity, i think we're done.

[lolwut666]

LorDC wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Allowing the turians to go against Cerberus doesn't hurt humanity in the slightest, because Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame.

They aren't even considered part of humanity as a whole. They answer to no government and are considered to be a terrorist organization by every major species in the galaxy; humans included.

Having humans in their ranks does not make Cerberus part of humanity.

a) Allowing Turians to take actions against Cerberus is even bigger source of shame since through it we openly admit that we are not strong enough to deal with it ourselves.

You contradict yourself: on one hand "Cerberus is humanity's biggest source of shame" but on other hand "They aren't even considered part of humanity".

c) De jure Cerberus is terrorist organization that has nothing to do with systems Alliance. This very convenient. Especially for Cerberus and Alliance. With it Cerberus can take any blames for it's actions and humanity comes clear out of it. But de facto calling organization that consists almost entirely of humans and seeks pro-human agenda "not part of humanity" is kinda lame.

d) Cerberus has very deep ties with Alliance. It is heavily implied pretty much in every source. Allowing aliens to strike against Cerberus is allowing them to strike against Alliance. What if those turians commando who stormed Cerberus bases found highly classified Alliance research or military data? It would either result in immediate political catastrophe for humanity or gave turians trump card against humanity.

a) No. It shows that we are not stupid enough to refuse help.

 I'm not contradicting myself at all. They're humanity's biggest shame because Cerberus is consisted of humans, but they are not part of humanity because they are a non-government sanctioned organization.

c) Again, humanity does not endorse Cerberus's actions and Cerberus does not answer to humanity. They are fully independent. When they do something and humanity gets the blame, it's because of alien bigotry to claim that all humans are the same.

d) It's not allowing them to strike against the Alliance because Cerberus is not part of the Alliance. And it can't be helped if they find anything, because what's more important is to take Cerberus down. So you're saying that if a turian organization started terrorizing the galaxy, every species should step aside and let the turians deal with it, even when they are also being attacked? You're suggesting they don't retaliate? Again, you're willing to refuse help out of blind human pride.

[Fixers0]

Seboist wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

TIM saved humanity from the Collectors, did you?

He did it to get Reaper tech.

Even the n***s accidentaly did good things.

And it was Shepard who saved humanity from the Collectors. TIM helped him.

TIM wasn't planning on capturing the CB until the very end when EDI told him salvaging it in one piece was possible. You should be ashamed of yourself for slandering such a good man. Shepard owes his entire existence and mission success to him.

TIM is just a selfish terrorist who is using the reaper threat to his own advantage.

[Dean_the_Young]

lolwut666 wrote...

He did it to get Reaper tech.

Supposition, really, and a bad one at that: no one knew that the Collector Base (a) was a base, ( had actual Reaper technology of the sort it did, or © could even be captured before the anti-Collector Effort was already well underway and Cerberus temporarily bankrupted by the efforts partaken. B and C weren't even known until well within the Collector Base.

Even the n***s accidentaly did good things.

Godwin's Law? Really?

Shepard comes far closer to a N*** figure than TIM, what with multiple counts of genocide and mass-killings far in excess of any known combination of Cerberus projects.

And it was Shepard who saved humanity from the Collectors. TIM helped him.

They were both required for what occured. Without TIM, there would be no Shepard.

[Moiaussi]

lolwut666 wrote...

And do you seriously think that rebelling against the Council would get us a Council seat any faster?

Simply questioning the Council's decisions or suggesting alternative solutions is not the same as rebellion. Udina rolled over and played lacky.

He even let humanity take the full blame (via Shepard) for the nuke on Vermire, despite it being a STG plan. If Shepard hadn't been there, that would have been the plan the STG would have had to fall back on, likely without their survial since they wouldn't have had Shepard and would have had to detonate a little further away and guard the bomb themselves.

[Seboist]

Fixers0 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Seboist wrote...

"Cerberus IS humanity" - TIM

Remember that.

Simply saying you are the King of England doesn't make it so.

TIM saved humanity from the Collectors, did you?

He did it to get Reaper tech.

Even the n***s accidentaly did good things.

And it was Shepard who saved humanity from the Collectors. TIM helped him.

TIM wasn't planning on capturing the CB until the very end when EDI told him salvaging it in one piece was possible. You should be ashamed of yourself for slandering such a good man. Shepard owes his entire existence and mission success to him.

TIM is just a selfish terrorist who is using the reaper threat to his own advantage.

That's not true. He's doing everything in his power to look after humanity's long term interests and security.

[lolwut666]

@Dean_the_Young

His purpose from the start was to get through the Omega 4 relay to reach the Collector homeworld. Even if he didn't knew there was a Collector base, it's only fair to assume that he expected to find Reaper tech there.

And what Genocide? Shepard never committed genocide. Do you even know what genocide means?

Only killing the rachni queen could be considered genocide, but then again only some Shepards did it. Cerberus's deeds are set in stone.

Also, killing someone who wants to kill you is different than killing people for the sake of power or by using them as guinea pigs in sick experiments.

Without Shepard, none of what happened in the game would've been possible. Shepard was the only one up to the task, so Shepard is more important than TIM.

[LorDC]

Fixers0 wrote...
Since we arrived to the point that were you are saying that wiping out out a terroirst group is bad for humanity, i think we're done.

a) Cerberus aren't terrorists. Check definition of terrorism if you think so.
Cerberus has done for humanity more than than turians ever will.
"Selling" Cerberus to turians is bad humanity.

[lolwut666]

Moiaussi wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

And do you seriously think that rebelling against the Council would get us a Council seat any faster?

Simply questioning the Council's decisions or suggesting alternative solutions is not the same as rebellion. Udina rolled over and played lacky.

He even let humanity take the full blame (via Shepard) for the nuke on Vermire, despite it being a STG plan. If Shepard hadn't been there, that would have been the plan the STG would have had to fall back on, likely without their survial since they wouldn't have had Shepard and would have had to detonate a little further away and guard the bomb themselves.

What you think is irrelevant, because no social interaction is fully based on logic. If you questioned the Council, they could feel offended, even if you are right. Politicians know when they should speak up and when they should nod silently.