My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.
Should I kill Loghain, and put Alistair(Hardened) on the throne with Anora?
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genocidal villain
, mai 02 2011 10:24
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#2
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:42
Rheia
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Why not let Alistair duel Loghain then? The choice will be out of your hands then (the first time I played I thought their duel would be poetic so I didn't find out Loghain could even be spared untill the second run... imagine my surprise 
)
Anora is a very capable solo queen, and Alistair gets the life free of all the political intrigue. Plus his warden cameo in DA2 is nicer than his king's, though not as funny as the drunk
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Personally, I prefer to spare Loghain: he is interesting to take through return to Ostagar, and some of his banters with companion and the dog are very insightful.
) Anora is a very capable solo queen, and Alistair gets the life free of all the political intrigue. Plus his warden cameo in DA2 is nicer than his king's, though not as funny as the drunk
.Personally, I prefer to spare Loghain: he is interesting to take through return to Ostagar, and some of his banters with companion and the dog are very insightful.
Modifié par Rheia, 02 mai 2011 - 11:45 .
#3
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 01:43
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There are two ways of looking at it. I'm going to give you the "kill Loghain" perspective even though I can argue the opposite.
Yes, you should kill Loghain.
Why? He pre-meditated betraying Cailan. The proof it was pre-meditated? He sent Jowan to poison Eamon well before the armies had fully gathered at Ostagar.
So Loghain had time to work things out with Cailan or call a Landsmeet if he truly thought Cailan's judgement was bad. The Banns, Arls, and Teryns could have told Cailan "no Orlesians - no Wardens" if they actually thought Loghain was right.
Then, in the year that follows Loghains treason, he has plenty of opportunities to back out of the civil war. Opportunities to re-negotiate with the Orlesians for soldiers and Wardens to fight the Blight. But Loghain just keeps going further and further into evil (and quite frankly foolish) methods to try to "save" Fereldan. If you do elect to spare Loghain he even tells you in one of the conversation options that his plan was a terrible plan but it was the best he could do without yielding to his opposing peers.
Yes, you should kill Loghain.
Why? He pre-meditated betraying Cailan. The proof it was pre-meditated? He sent Jowan to poison Eamon well before the armies had fully gathered at Ostagar.
So Loghain had time to work things out with Cailan or call a Landsmeet if he truly thought Cailan's judgement was bad. The Banns, Arls, and Teryns could have told Cailan "no Orlesians - no Wardens" if they actually thought Loghain was right.
Then, in the year that follows Loghains treason, he has plenty of opportunities to back out of the civil war. Opportunities to re-negotiate with the Orlesians for soldiers and Wardens to fight the Blight. But Loghain just keeps going further and further into evil (and quite frankly foolish) methods to try to "save" Fereldan. If you do elect to spare Loghain he even tells you in one of the conversation options that his plan was a terrible plan but it was the best he could do without yielding to his opposing peers.
#4
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:12
Addai
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Jowan was sent to incapacitate Eamon for a confrontation with Cailan over Orlais. If anything, it's proof that Loghain did not intend to kill Cailan. You don't need to remove a king's allies if you're just going to kill the king himself.
#5
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:15
nos_astra
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That doesn't make any sense to me.Addai67 wrote...
Jowan was sent to incapacitate Eamon for a confrontation with Cailan over Orlais. If anything, it's proof that Loghain did not intend to kill Cailan. You don't need to remove a king's allies if you're just going to kill the king himself.
Anyway, the Landsmeet:
Loghain is in a position of power and you could expect more wisdom and foresight from a man of his experience and stature. Even if you blame Howe for most of the deeds, it was still Loghain who enabled him and rewarded him. I think, that's enough to warrant death in Ferelden.
You could let Alistair duel him and Alistair will take the decision out of your hands.
You can also let Loghain live. It's not a decision I like the way it is presented in the game. A lot of handwaving and a big leap of faith, but I do have my own idea as to why and how he could and should be spared. I see it as part of a deal with Anora, you spare her father the death of a traitor and she will not turn on you.
Modifié par klarabella, 02 mai 2011 - 03:25 .
#6
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:22
Addai
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There would be no need to remove support for a confrontation with Cailan if Cailan is dead. What's difficult about that?
#7
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 03:25
errant_knight
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Me, I'd have Alistair duel Loghain and take care of business. He's been waiting for it ever since Ostagar. I see reason to make Anora queen with him either, myself. He does just fine on his own, and makes it clear that he doesn't trust her or want to marry her, so it's a fairly nasty thing to do to him.
The hardening line is what's left of a larger conversation that got cut, so has to be take more for shorthand that he has look out for himself, than that the world sucks. His conversation with you afterwards in camp makes that clear ("I've been thinking about what you said. You're right, I do need to look out for myself more, or I'll never be happy.") And he does need to look out for himself. He shouldn't be dependent on the PC to do that for him. Hardened Alistair is more confident and believes that he's capable of more--that's a good thing. He's still himself, and he still won't want to do anything murky unless you convince him, and you don't have to do that.
The hardening line is what's left of a larger conversation that got cut, so has to be take more for shorthand that he has look out for himself, than that the world sucks. His conversation with you afterwards in camp makes that clear ("I've been thinking about what you said. You're right, I do need to look out for myself more, or I'll never be happy.") And he does need to look out for himself. He shouldn't be dependent on the PC to do that for him. Hardened Alistair is more confident and believes that he's capable of more--that's a good thing. He's still himself, and he still won't want to do anything murky unless you convince him, and you don't have to do that.
Modifié par errant_knight, 02 mai 2011 - 03:40 .
#8
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:57
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Addai67 wrote...
Jowan was sent to incapacitate Eamon for a confrontation with Cailan over Orlais. If anything, it's proof that Loghain did not intend to kill Cailan. You don't need to remove a king's allies if you're just going to kill the king himself.
You know I'm going to disagree as we've both been here a long time. I'll present my exposition.
1) In the game everybody you speak to says Jowan was sent to poison Eamon. That is not in question.
Teagan and Isolde and Connor said the demon was the only thing keeping Eamon alive. True, Eamon remained alive after the demon died - so what they said may be wrong.
But nobody said Jowan was sent to "incapacitate" him. Not one character in the game denies or calls into question that the intention was murder. Therefore, since nobody in the game expressly states Loghain's intent was incapacitation, it wasn't. Poison kills
Example: you don't put out rat poison to "incapacitate" rats. You don't call the Orkin man to "incapacitate" insects - he poisons them to death - the queen of the nest and all the queen's drones. That's why you have to leave the house when the exterminator (root word exterminate) comes.
2) Logic dictates you do need to kill the King's allies. I'm impressed by the writing as this game demonstrates the point quite well.
Everyone kept talking about how "if Eamon were here he'd settle this." So Eamon needed to go. Even without Eamon rallying for a landsmeet and even without proof that Loghain is a regicide, the Bannorn still go to war with Loghain over the King's death.
If you harden Alistair and DON'T marry him to Anora, everyone agrees she is a threat to the throne and has to go.
If Bhelen is made king, he clearly explains in order to maintain stability of his kingdom Harrowmount has to go. Furthermore, Harrowmount supporters are exiled or forced into the military to fight the Blight to prevent anarchy as explained by the crier and random people on the street.
The only credit I give Loghain is he kept trying to get Cailan to back out right up until the Battle of Ostagar started. He clearly tells Cailan he trusts the Wardens too much, and the guards in camp say that Loghain keeps advising the king not to fight. Loghain wanted Cailan to call it off and follow Loghain's ideals. But obviously Loghain was placing his bets on Cailan not listening because Loghain sent "Jowan the Orkin Apostate" to poison Eamon.
Alright, I'm moving on.
#9
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 03:12
Addai
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Gaider said the poison was to incapacitate- not kill- Eamon, in preparation for a confrontation with Cailan over the Orlesians. WoG is good enough for me.
Modifié par Addai67, 03 mai 2011 - 03:13 .
#10
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 03:19
KnightofPhoenix
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In-game, there is little evidence to support it except that Eamon lives despite the demons death and that demons are liars. But that's it. It could have been for any number of reasons including sheer luck.
I don't really care personally. In fact I think it was kind of stupid of Loghain not to try and kill Eamon and be done with it.
I don't really care personally. In fact I think it was kind of stupid of Loghain not to try and kill Eamon and be done with it.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 mai 2011 - 03:19 .
#11
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 03:27
Addai
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The poison didn't kill him, and it wasn't the demon who was keeping him alive since he continues to live if she's gone to the void. That's really all the in-game evidence you need.
Whether Loghain should have tried to kill him or not- immaterial. It's not his MO. He was trying to engineer a successful outcome, not insitute a coup.
Whether Loghain should have tried to kill him or not- immaterial. It's not his MO. He was trying to engineer a successful outcome, not insitute a coup.
#12
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:02
Ferretinabun
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OP - I raised my eyebrow at your "It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds..." Not sure there's much evidence for that besides 'Loghain has some redeeming features and Howe seemingly doesn't'.
But anyway... if it feels mean to harden Alistair and to execute Loghain, then don't do either. You're staying true to the character you want to play. Yes, Alistair will get pissy and sulk off to hit the bottle, but that's his call. He's a big boy and got to live with the consequences of his own decisions. Besides, in DA2, AListair's drunk cameo kinda suggests things might not end so bleakly for him after all.
But anyway... if it feels mean to harden Alistair and to execute Loghain, then don't do either. You're staying true to the character you want to play. Yes, Alistair will get pissy and sulk off to hit the bottle, but that's his call. He's a big boy and got to live with the consequences of his own decisions. Besides, in DA2, AListair's drunk cameo kinda suggests things might not end so bleakly for him after all.
#13
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:08
Last Darkness
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genocidal villain wrote...
My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.
Im extremly fond of letting Loghaine live and join my party and haveing Harded Alistair marry Anora.
This is the best possible choice for all parties and everyone and create unique story I have found.
#14
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 05:58
errant_knight
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How is that a good choice for Alistair?Last Darkness wrote...
genocidal villain wrote...
My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.
Im extremly fond of letting Loghaine live and join my party and haveing Harded Alistair marry Anora.
This is the best possible choice for all parties and everyone and create unique story I have found.
#15
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 09:13
Last Darkness
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errant_knight wrote...
How is that a good choice for Alistair?Last Darkness wrote...
genocidal villain wrote...
My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.
Im extremly fond of letting Loghaine live and join my party and haveing Harded Alistair marry Anora.
This is the best possible choice for all parties and everyone and create unique story I have found.
Depends on how you look at it, Allistair dosnt want to be on the Throne but understands what must be done for the good of Ferelden. (Alistair hardened and unhardened are two differant people)
Lohgaine alive is a sound choice for the Wardens and Fereleden (Hes a experinced tactician, something they are lacking and a strong leader. Plus joining the Wardens is not a blessing. Its a condemnation to death or worse within 30 years)
Anora well, shes been running the country already since before the Wardens heavy handed meddeling in politics.
Alistair+Anora is a good team, and Alistair since hes not basicaly ruling alone is given a measure of freedom and he honestly can do alot for Ferelden.
It may not be the best for him (Which is he wants to stand in the background and be left alone by everyone) but its the best for all parties. Most beneficial scenario for Ferelden.
As Spider-Man said 'Sometimes you have to give up on the things you want in order to do whats right'
#16
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Posté 04 mai 2011 - 12:47
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Addai67 wrote...
Gaider said . . .WoG is good enough for me.
I KNEW that was going to be your response.
WoG is NOT good enough for me.
He's a story teller. Story tellers make things up and change things in the re-telling of a story over time. Sometimes they make up new stories. It's part of the creative process. I'm understand that.
But sometimes he re-writes history or just says dumb things.
The "incapacitation" story was one of those things. To my mind he was back peddling to make Loghain look less evil than he was. Either that or it is something he intended but his bosses told him he could not put into the finished product. In both cases, it's a story that doesn't stack up with the actual game for me.
#17
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Posté 04 mai 2011 - 12:54
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errant_knight wrote...
How is that a good choice for Alistair?
I like to think since Big Al and Anoya ruled together so well in the epilogue that they came to love each other. One of those situations where a person is initially forced to do something he thinks he's going to hate but then discovers he likes it.
That's what I choose to think when I make that choice in game. But I think the closest the epilogue actually comes to saying that is that Anora was suprised at how seriously Alistair took governance.
So it could have been a loveless marriage.
I gotta quit replying - sucks up my gaming time!
#18
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:38
Costin_Razvan
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Hanz54321 wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Gaider said . . .WoG is good enough for me.
I KNEW that was going to be your response.
WoG is NOT good enough for me.
He's a story teller. Story tellers make things up and change things in the re-telling of a story over time. Sometimes they make up new stories. It's part of the creative process. I'm understand that.
But sometimes he re-writes history or just says dumb things.
The "incapacitation" story was one of those things. To my mind he was back peddling to make Loghain look less evil than he was. Either that or it is something he intended but his bosses told him he could not put into the finished product. In both cases, it's a story that doesn't stack up with the actual game for me.
I don't see why people care so much for Eamon anyway. I most certainly didn't find a reason.
#19
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:12
Addai
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*shrug* Eamon didn't die and it wasn't the demon keeping him alive, so your theory makes no sense. But feel free to stick to it. I'm going with the game writer.Hanz54321 wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Gaider said . . .WoG is good enough for me.
I KNEW that was going to be your response.
WoG is NOT good enough for me.
He's a story teller. Story tellers make things up and change things in the re-telling of a story over time. Sometimes they make up new stories. It's part of the creative process. I'm understand that.
But sometimes he re-writes history or just says dumb things.
The "incapacitation" story was one of those things. To my mind he was back peddling to make Loghain look less evil than he was. Either that or it is something he intended but his bosses told him he could not put into the finished product. In both cases, it's a story that doesn't stack up with the actual game for me.
Modifié par Addai67, 04 mai 2011 - 05:12 .
#20
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 12:12
Mykel54
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The ending that i like the most is to let Loghain redeem himself by killing the Archdemon, not only because of himself (i think he is an interesting character) but more for the grey wardens as a whole. Having a grey warden king (alistair), and loghain as a grey warden hero, will make sure that the wardens are welcome in Ferelden again. I think that executing loghain is such a waste, specially when Riordan tells you explicitely not to.
#21
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 12:59
Shadow of Light Dragon
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Everyone has a different idea on what a good outcome is.
I like these outcomes and think they're good for various reasons:
Alistair living happily as a Grey Warden.
Loghain recruited and dead killing the archdemon.
Anora Queen.
Dark Ritual not completed.
Unfortunately the only way to get all those outcomes at once is to write fanfiction
I like these outcomes and think they're good for various reasons:
Alistair living happily as a Grey Warden.
Loghain recruited and dead killing the archdemon.
Anora Queen.
Dark Ritual not completed.
Unfortunately the only way to get all those outcomes at once is to write fanfiction
#22
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:56
Last Darkness
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Mykel54 wrote...
The ending that i like the most is to let Loghain redeem himself by killing the Archdemon, not only because of himself (i think he is an interesting character) but more for the grey wardens as a whole. Having a grey warden king (alistair), and loghain as a grey warden hero, will make sure that the wardens are welcome in Ferelden again. I think that executing loghain is such a waste, specially when Riordan tells you explicitely not to.
Im more pragmatic, Lohgaine serves a much better purpose for Ferelden and The Grey Wardens as a member. Alistair for similar reasons.
My problem with alot of people who play the game is they think the Grey Wardens are the "White Wardens".
I have a problem who argue ethics, and morality when the game basicaly straight out tells them sure their personal ethics and morality are intact but to accomplish that they screwed everyone else over. Alot of the "Good" choices in Dragon Age have the worst outcomes. Its not black and white morality here.
One of the reasons I dislike Alistair, hes blindly oblivious to what the Wardens actualy are and do. He much easier to stand once you harden him at least.
Duncan and Riodan are more true to what the Wardens are. They are Batman lol, You have to be willing to do what must be done sometimes, not just whats good and right(As often times in real life even, the good choices we make actualy are not the best ones)
#23
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Posté 04 mai 2011 - 06:17
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walks away shaking head 
Modifié par Hanz54321, 04 mai 2011 - 06:34 .
#24
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:06
Bleachrude
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Addai67 wrote...
*shrug* Eamon didn't die and it wasn't the demon keeping him alive, so your theory makes no sense. But feel free to stick to it. I'm going with the game writer.Hanz54321 wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Gaider said . . .WoG is good enough for me.
I KNEW that was going to be your response.
WoG is NOT good enough for me.
He's a story teller. Story tellers make things up and change things in the re-telling of a story over time. Sometimes they make up new stories. It's part of the creative process. I'm understand that.
But sometimes he re-writes history or just says dumb things.
The "incapacitation" story was one of those things. To my mind he was back peddling to make Loghain look less evil than he was. Either that or it is something he intended but his bosses told him he could not put into the finished product. In both cases, it's a story that doesn't stack up with the actual game for me.
The only problem is that the game writer's idea makes no sense...
Remember, this so-called "won't kill but only put him in a coma" poison required the *MYTHICAL* Sacred Ashes to cure. Keep in mind that even the first Enchanter Irving, Wyne and Morrigan couldn't cure Arl Eamon with magic and Zevran and Leliana, two other people who probably know a GREAT deal about poison don't seem to have ANY idea as to what type of poison it could be.
The idea that the poison was only to put Eamon in a coma seems ludicrous IMO.
As an aside, I'm with others as I'm getting annoyed with David Gaider constantly revising things especially with regard to Loghain (personally, this and the Cousland massacre both occur BEFORE Ostagar which to me means that Loghain had already been planning to abandon the field.
#25
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:12
Bleachrude
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Small point.
Actually, we dont actually know if the demon didnt save Eamon's life. People seem to have this idea that the demon's magic was sustaining Eamon but more likely, the demon only had to use a ONE-TIME effect to save Eamon.
That fulfils the demons end of the bargain.
Actually, we dont actually know if the demon didnt save Eamon's life. People seem to have this idea that the demon's magic was sustaining Eamon but more likely, the demon only had to use a ONE-TIME effect to save Eamon.
That fulfils the demons end of the bargain.
