34 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

There's no revision. Not everything is spelled out in the game. Gaider offers his perspective on the background of game events because inquiring minds wanna know. He still says that if you choose to ignore his perspective and limit yourself to game-only info, you're welcome to do so.

Mages couldn't cure the poison because it's poison, not natural illness. I mean, we don't even know how magical healing works, but a poison needs an antidote. Berwick was there to watch Eamon's condition and if it worsened, Loghain would provide an antidote. There's nothing contradictory here. If you choose not to believe that explanation for game events, that's up to you. There's nothing in game that contradicts it.

You also can't know that the demon waved her magic wand and cured him- that's pure speculation. Demons lie to get what they want. So your theory is as good as any schmuck's. Since David Gaider is more than any schmuck, I'm going to stick with his.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mai 2011 - 10:07 .

[Bleachrude]

But you ignore that in many parties you have both Leliana (an Orlesia bard) and Zev (an antivan crow).

Yet neither of them have the slightest hint/idea as to what poison it could be? Throw in the magical firepower/knowledge of Irving, Morrigan (who herself probably knows a fair bit about poison from Flemeth) AND Wynne?

That it takes the bloody Sacred ashes to help?

Yeah, that's a HUGE revision going on there by DG. I think he's intentionally trying to make Loghain "deep" at the expense of toher characters (cailan especially...nowadays Cailan has gone from slghtly gregarious confident man to a man-child who couldn't even tie his shoelaces all through DG's "WoG" statements)

[Addai]

No one's saying Eamon wasn't poisoned at all. Only that the poisoning was not meant to be fatal.

So because Zevran knows a few poisons, he should know exactly what was given to Eamon and what the antidote is? Can a doctor look at you and tell what medications you're on?

There is suggestion that the ashes are "magical" because of the high lyrium content in the mountain (Oghren mentions this if you bring him to the temple). There's not necessarily anything mystical about them. Regardless, even if Loghain meant to kill Eamon, ask all your counter-arguments back at yourself. Why did the poison not work? Why didn't Zevran know what it was? etc.

Loghain is an interesting character. If you want to reduce him to a paper cut-out villain- if that's what makes the story better for you- feel free. The man who wrote the story says there more to it.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mai 2011 - 10:25 .

[Shinobu]

genocidal villain wrote...

My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.

Are you asking what is a good outcome for the realm as a whole or for Alistair and Loghain as individuals? Leaving any romantic relationship between Alistair and a female Warden out of the equation:

Best outcome for the realm: Hardened King Alistair + Anora > Hardened King Alistair alone > Anora alone > Unhardened King Alistair + Anora > Unhardened King Alistair alone.
I personally believe it is better for the realm if the DR is not done, but know this is unproven.

For Alistair: Being hardened >>> unhardened. Being Hardened King > Hardened Warden > Unhardened Warden >> Unhardened King >>> drunk >>>>>> soul annihilated.
Being king gives Alistair the opportunity to do the most good (something he strives for), also Alistair is likely to become disillusioned by the Wardens' ruthless tactics (as he does if the Warden dies and he stays in the order). Also, in the Fade he admits he would rather live than wind up "dead in a ditch" as a Warden.

For Loghain: Warden sacrifice > executed > Warden DR.
I'm not ordering things this way because I feel Loghain should die, but because Loghain himself would rather die saving his country than be executed. Also, I believe that he would rather die than take the risk that the DR will turn out to be a Really Bad Idea ™. On a personal level he'd rather be faithful to his dead wife than sleep with Morrigan. To top it off he would not be keen on living disgraced as a Warden and being transferred to Orlais, where he would have to follow the orders of Orlesians who are itching to get some payback. (I know he seems philosophical about it in Awakening, but that really can't be a good retirement for him.) Not to mention the nightmares, endless darkspawn fighting, etc. he would face as a Warden post-Blight.

So, the best outcome all around, in my opinion is:
Hardened King Alistair + Anora ruling (I also believe they come to care for each other, but understand others don't believe it.)
Loghain sacrifice
No DR

Of course, because my Warden doesn't always do the right thing, I got:
Anora alone (at least Shianni wasn't made Bann)
Hardened Warden Alistair doing the DR and running off with the CE Warden :innocent:

[Last Darkness]

Shinobu wrote...

genocidal villain wrote...

My recent playthrough I find it hard to kill Loghain or make him a Grey Warden. It seems Howe influenced Loghain to do those deeds and it seems he is a good man who made wrong decisions especially the one in he made in Ostagar. I feel bad if I tell Alistair "everyone is out for themselves, you should know that" I'll support him even if he doesn't want to become king and he seems very loyal as a grey warden. It's a hard choice what is a good outcome. Also, I plan to do Morrigan's ritual.

Are you asking what is a good outcome for the realm as a whole or for Alistair and Loghain as individuals? Leaving any romantic relationship between Alistair and a female Warden out of the equation:

Best outcome for the realm: Hardened King Alistair + Anora > Hardened King Alistair alone > Anora alone > Unhardened King Alistair + Anora > Unhardened King Alistair alone.
I personally believe it is better for the realm if the DR is not done, but know this is unproven.

For Alistair: Being hardened >>> unhardened. Being Hardened King > Hardened Warden > Unhardened Warden >> Unhardened King >>> drunk >>>>>> soul annihilated.
Being king gives Alistair the opportunity to do the most good (something he strives for), also Alistair is likely to become disillusioned by the Wardens' ruthless tactics (as he does if the Warden dies and he stays in the order). Also, in the Fade he admits he would rather live than wind up "dead in a ditch" as a Warden.

For Loghain: Warden sacrifice > executed > Warden DR.
I'm not ordering things this way because I feel Loghain should die, but because Loghain himself would rather die saving his country than be executed. Also, I believe that he would rather die than take the risk that the DR will turn out to be a Really Bad Idea ™. On a personal level he'd rather be faithful to his dead wife than sleep with Morrigan. To top it off he would not be keen on living disgraced as a Warden and being transferred to Orlais, where he would have to follow the orders of Orlesians who are itching to get some payback. (I know he seems philosophical about it in Awakening, but that really can't be a good retirement for him.) Not to mention the nightmares, endless darkspawn fighting, etc. he would face as a Warden post-Blight.

So, the best outcome all around, in my opinion is:
Hardened King Alistair + Anora ruling (I also believe they come to care for each other, but understand others don't believe it.)
Loghain sacrifice
No DR

Of course, because my Warden doesn't always do the right thing, I got:
Anora alone (at least Shianni wasn't made Bann)
Hardened Warden Alistair doing the DR and running off with the CE Warden :innocent:

I like your line of thinking.

I myself always prefer hardened alistair+anora on throne, Lohgaine Warden. My views are thats the best for Ferelden and a more sinsiter punishment for Lohgaines action plus he can genualy do some good in his position. Hopefully his time in Orleis teaches him some humility to temper his actions and expeand his views of the world.

I choose to do the DR for two reasons, due to the fact I romance Morrigan she winds up pregnant anyways, and two I want to see what happens in the future. Its a differant path then what has been done before and has a chance for something new to happen (I side with the Archytech for similar reasons).

Though I 100% agree, Unharded Alistair staying in the Wardens is going to become disillusioned beyond belief.

[Jedimaster88]

I´ve almost everytime married hardened Alistair to Anora although I keep thinking if it is the right thing to do. It maybe the best thing for Ferelden but it may not be best for Alistair. He doesnt seem to like anora much or trust her and I cant blame him because I feel the same about her. Alistair is a good friend and almost like a brother to my male human noble so I keep thinking that marrying him to anora is like ruining the rest of his life with a happiless marriage with no love etc. Maybe they can live together happy and even learn to care about eachother and change as persons (hopefully for the better). Hard to say because we dont get that much info and can only assume.

As for Loghain, I dont regret executing him. I propably dont even have to mention all the things he does in the game. Even if some of his decisions are result of howes evil mind, he still made the decision to proceed with them and I assume he pretty much had some idea what would be the consequenses for those decisions. Yes I keep hearing what a uber hero he is in the stolen throne (havent read it myself because I haven seen it anywhere in here Finland), And yes he has a right to hate ALL orlesians if he wants and yes he has some redeeming qualities, but that doesnt justify his actions in any form. When Riordan makes his suggestion, I would like to say to him something like "I have no use for a general who stabbed us in the back and blamed us for his dirty work just because he thought he is the only one who can save the day". Personally I dont feel it is right that Loghain kills the archdemon and is remembered as a hero and people go on like he NEVER did anything wrong. I have seen videos in youtube about his dialogue with the warden but they dont seem that impressive. Yeah maric was great king, I fought orlesians etc. we know that already. In fact he doesnt even say he is sorry or anything about his actions towards you does he? Correct me if Im wrong. It is fitting that as a warden he goes to Orlai to serve but I still cant spare his life, I just cant. By sparing his life I would betray my good friend Alistair and with it throw away all my warden and he stand for.

So in the end I prefer executing loghain. With this people will remember him as a man with all the good and bad things he made, and my warden and alistair will be remembered as the real persons who saved ferelden.

[tanerb123]

unfortunately i couldnt harden alistair so he became a sissy. only way this thing work would be he got married to anora. then it would never work 1. with loghain alive, as he'd try to seize power at first opportunity 2. alistair killing him as his wife would never forget that and alistair would always have to live with a blade on his back, so i had to make short of loghain myself . to be fair he died bravely

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

I'm beginning to wonder if recruiting Loghain simply for his skills isn't a bad idea.  To me, Loghain can never be redeemed, and will probably still go to Hell (or something that's the equivalent of it).  But, does he need to go there right away?  Why not use him for as long as possible.   What's 30 years when compared to eternity?

[Bleachrude]

Personally I think recruiting Loghain would actually cause MORE diversion among your allies...

For example, the Dalish hold the chantry in total contempt but absolutely DESPISE the Tevinters...and now you want the Dalish to be taking orders from a guy who sold elves to Tevinter bloodmages? Same goes for the City Elves (during the final battle when you have the opportunity to convince the city elves to fight, having Loghain in your party should automatically make you fail IMO)

Then there's the various Banns and arls. Alfstana whose brother was imprisoned? Teagan whose brother was poisoned, Wulff whose arling and entire family was destroyed because Loghain in the beginning didn't believe it was an actual Blight?, Sighard whose son had the nice opportunity to be a guest of Loghain's righthand man Howe?

Then there's of course the Circle of Magi/Templars who you have recruited. Uldred is seen by BOTH the circle mages AND Templars as Loghain's man, throw in finding out about Jowan and Alfastana's brother and you got some seriously peeved people.

Sure, technically you have the support of all these people/groups even with recruiting Loghain. But at the time pre recruiting Lghain you also have their respect, trust and admiration That pretty much goes flying out the window once you recruit Loghain....

[GreyVsGray]

Gonna necro this real quickly...

If you make Loghain into a warden, you're continuing a cycle that Duncan started when he killed Genevieve's husband. He was put through the joining by her to cement his death but he survived.

Now, take this situation and replce the people. Duncan was your savior, friend, and ally( Compare to Genevieve's husband). You've basically got a relationship that makes you two close. Then Loghain(The Duncan in this situation) basically cements the death of someone close to you.

You can kill him or make him exactly what she made Duncan: A warden out of spite and revenge(Not her intention but it happened). If you do this, you become his warden mentor in a sort of way.

See where I'm going? If you make Loghain into a warden, you're effectively recreating Duncan's situation when he became one. Some minor differences but very, very similar.