19 réponses à ce sujet

[Chugster]

Just wondering, none seem to have extra attacks so whats the best to compliment the archery tree

[mr_afk]

Assassin works great with it. Mark of Death+Ranged assassinate (coupled with a brittle) gives huge numbers without any of the risk associated to having to go melee range. Plus devious harm increases critical damage by heaps which will be very useful.

In terms of the second specialisation it's a little more hit and miss. Duelist is great due the decreased amount of dexterity you need to have to reach 100% attack (allowing you to get more damage via cunning). Vendetta is also pretty nice allowing you to warp around the battlefield.

Shadow is great for the 25% crit dmg passive and the ability to disorientate etc. But yeah, it's really up to you, only assassin is really deemed necessary in terms of min-maxing damage etc.

Btw, the archery tree is pretty ****. I wouldn't waste any points into it since hawke has much better things to spend points on. Your companions could maybe get it for the archers lance as they have more points to waste..

[DW2511]

Archers need to pick a spot and not be bothered. Get Shadow. Decoy and Inconpicuous, along with Stealth will make you a.... shadow!

Plus ,rp wise, Duelist and Archer don't mix.

Duelist is the better spec for DW, though.

[lionalio87]

I'm playing a female archer rogue with Duelist and Assassins are fullly upgraded and she is awesome. No boss can stance a chance against her Vendetta and Assassinate!! For the normal enemies, they have to deal with my high DPS thanks to the high dexterity and high critical chance (90%!!!!), so I'll blow them up after 3-4 hits (with the low-health normal enemies, I need no more than 1 hit!). For the lieutenant and elite enemies, I wait for them to drink their potions to heal themselves and...BOOM!!! Assassinate and then Vendetta, that's the last things he can drink before he go to hell, unfortunately that's the health potion, not alcohol. Pathetic!!! Hee hee

[haroldhardluck]

The Assassin tree is a Must Have regardless of which weapon specialty you decide to have.

Stealth, evade and the various gas skills are very useful for getting out of tights spots. As a rogue, running away is usually the best tactic when surrounded. You cannot scatter your attackers like a warrior can.

I found that STR and CON of 12-16 to be quite adequate. Dex, Cunning and Willpower are the key attributes. Cunning will open locks and it seems that you need to get to at least 30 by act 3 when Master level locks appear. Dex, not strength is what makes any rogue a killing machine. Willpower gives high stamina and there are limits to how many stamina potions are around. Restoration potions are the only one that you can make as many as you can afford but they are usable only if you have lost both health and stamina points. If you are healthy you cannot use them.

Harold

[Darqion]

i disagree on the dex myself. Just get enough for weapon reqs. getting near max crit rate with gear/skills is very possible, and having a 250+% crit dmg modifier is always a nice thing to see

[DW2511]

Pumping your STR to 24 will make you knockback-resistant AND allow you to mix n' match rogue and warrior armor. Just an idea.

[mr_afk]

No point pumping strength or equipping warrior armour for an archer.
Archers shouldn't be getting attacked in the first place so damage reduction/knock-back resistance is useful but essentially wasteful.

Archers are all about dealing large amounts of damage due to their high base damage, crit chance, and critical damage. Pumping strength and constitution to equip warrior armour will reduce this by firstly taking away points that could be better spent in cunning and secondly by replacing useful +crit chance/dmg rogue armour properties

p.s. Archer duelists are probably the best dps build for an archer. Shadow does have use in the 25% crit dmg but in practice, the duelling abilities will allow you to have a much lower dex while maintaining attack rating allowing for more cunning to be pumped (and 13 cunning already equals more than 25% crit dmg)
Plus vendetta is the 2nd highest spike dmg rogue talent (I'm pretty sure it beats twin fangs/explosive strike) and for an archer you'll probably want something besides assassinate for spike damage. You could get archers lance but generally the rest of the archery tree is too **** to waste investing any points you need to get it.

Modifié par mr_afk, 04 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[haroldhardluck]

Darqion wrote...
i disagree on the dex myself. Just get enough for weapon reqs. getting near max crit rate with gear/skills is very possible, and having a 250+% crit dmg modifier is always a nice thing to see

However the best weapons require Dex that is 30+ which is about the max that is usable anyway. So maxing DEX for weapons is the same as maxing DEX for killing ability.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

DW2511 wrote...
Pumping your STR to 24 will make you knockback-resistant AND allow you to mix n' match rogue and warrior armor. Just an idea.

Knockback resistant is good for a DW rogue but useless for an archer. If they are close enough to knock you back, you are not playing the archer correctly. Archers should always be prepare to run away for a short distance to use their bow correctly. This is another reason I consider an archer to be better than a DW rogue, no need to be knockback proof.

Running away is actually a good tactic for mages as well. Several enemies have area weapons that can kill your entire party if they cluster together. It is good tactics to have mages and archers spread out so your enemies do not use area weapons against your party.

A rogue can dodge attacks and not need heavy armor. It is better to spend the points on the important attributes.

Harold

[mr_afk]

I think what darqion was referring to is the way that cunning does more damage-wise than dexterity.
So it should have been "cun, not dexterity is what makes any rogue a killing machine."

So leaving cun at 40 for master locks and pumping dex higher than ~30 is somewhat reducing your damage potential. This of course only applies to assassin/duelists with devious harm and duelling - ensuring that attack remains at 100% and that each cunning gives 2% crit damage.
As crit chance from items and ~30 dex should be ~100% late game anyway (so extra crit chance from dex is wasted), a cunning approach is superior damage-wise for both DW and archery

Modifié par mr_afk, 04 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[DW2511]

Enemy Archers can stunlock you unless you invest heavily in CON. Why not divide between CON and STR?

[lionalio87]

DW2511 wrote...

Enemy Archers can stunlock you unless you invest heavily in CON. Why not divide between CON and STR?

STR and CON are mainly for the Warriors, Archer Rogue benefits little from them. Are you sure this is a good way to build?

[mr_afk]

nope it's not. enemy archers shouldn't be attacking you in the first place, and if they do you can easily use stealth or just kill them.

If you're really concerned about knock-backs/getting interrupted you could invest in a knock-back immunity ring (e.g. the etched ring of the twins). It's a little bit wasteful money-wise though so I would probably just follow the approach that seems to be the general consensus here and use threat reduction abilities, CC, and generally just moving out of the way instead.

If you want to make an archer tank which likes to get close and personal with the knife-work I suppose a strength/constitution build could work. But really, there's no need to 'invest heavily in con'. I got by without any con for example (just +attribute from items etc). Just make good use of stealth etc and you'll be fine.

[Darth Kraken]

Shadow or Assassin as a first specialization?

[haroldhardluck]

mr_afk wrote...

I think what darqion was referring to is the way that cunning does more damage-wise than dexterity.
So it should have been "cun, not dexterity is what makes any rogue a killing machine."

Dex increases the likelihood of a hit and damage from a hit for rogues. It also determines the likelihood of a critical hit. Cunning determines the critical hit damage but it is dex that determines if you get the critical hit in the first place. So Dex is the more important attributes for damages. Cunning means nothing if your rogue gets few criticals and criticals depend on dex.

This information is all in the Attribute screen. None of it is offline, so I made screen captures of the information.

Harold

[mr_afk]

No, you're missing the point.
If you do some basic calcs (e.g. dumping stats into excel) what you'll find is that once you factor in devious harm cunning becomes better dps-wise and dmg-wise than dexterity.

This is due to the way that attack-scores are 100% (via parry and the duelist passives) and crit chance is 100% (via ~30 dexterity=20%crit chance, en garde=10-20%, heroic aura=10%, and armour and item properties=~60%+).
This means that you're basically looking at a difference between an increase of 0.5 base dmg
e.g. =(50.5*150%)=75.75
or an increase in 2% crit dmg due to devious harm
e.g. =(50*152%)=76.5

If you extend this on a table you'll find that for each point in dex you gain 0.75 damage and for each point in cunning you gain 1 damage. This means that when talking about larger numbers a cunning build will outperform a dex build quite convincingly.

I would do more maths but i'm still trying to beat Jack-Nader's time

Modifié par mr_afk, 04 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[haroldhardluck]

Darth Kraken wrote...

Shadow or Assassin as a first specialization?

Assassin has more direct attack skills. Shadow are mainly hiding skills that allow the rogue to make deadlier attacks. However that is usually a two step process. First you got to hide and then you have to attack from stealth. With Assassin you usually just attack as with the Assassinate skill which is a HUGE killer. Low to mid level Bosses can be killed with one blow with that skill.

Harold

[DW2511]

lionalio87 wrote...

DW2511 wrote...

Enemy Archers can stunlock you unless you invest heavily in CON. Why not divide between CON and STR?

STR and CON are mainly for the Warriors, Archer Rogue benefits little from them. Are you sure this is a good way to build?

Much more fitting for a DW rogue, sure.

But if your playstyle dictated that you can sacrifice 40% assasin crit dmg for knockback immunity, 15% more armor, much higher survivability up until mid-game then it's something to consider.

If you know every battle by heart and don't mind reloading, sure, go with the more logical build. If you want durability, go outside the mainstream train of thought.

Generally, though, if you go Shadow you won't get hit, period. Stealth, Decoy, B2B are your friends.

[haroldhardluck]

DW2511 wrote...
If you know every battle by heart and don't mind reloading, sure, go with the more logical build. If you want durability, go outside the mainstream train of thought.
Generally, though, if you go Shadow you won't get hit, period. Stealth, Decoy, B2B are your friends.

The first time I played a rogue, it was a DW rogue. I did not get anything in Shadow and just got Stealth and Evade from Subterfuge. The Arishok duel was tough but I won without a reload. I also won the final set of battles without a reload. The second time around with an archer, it was much easier but again no Shadow skills and just Evade and Stealth. In both cases STR and CON were in the 12-14 range. So a traditional rogue build is very durable and winnable. It is just a matter of playing a rogue properly for a traditional build.

Harold