Why would you want to appeal to new players? It's a trilogy, you don't only watch the final part of star wars or LotR. Damn Bioware and their greed for mo' money. Making a profit isn't good enough, you have to make a bigger profit than the last time. ME3 is going to be like DA2 and it will suck.
Regarding the squadmates that will and won't return in ME3...
Débuté par
Whyp_2
, mai 02 2011 04:28
Retour en haut
#152
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:04
Nohvarr
-
- Members
- 1 854 messages
Ummm ME 3 has already announced significantly different locals than earth. It's already confirmed the return of ME 1 and some ME 2 squadmates, The game has also confirmed that height will play a role in level design, and that there will be multiple paths to the endgame and that not everyone can be saved.
How does that sound like DA 2?
How does that sound like DA 2?
#153
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:05
alperez
-
- Members
- 880 messages
SalsaDMA
No worries about your comments at all.
Da2 was a different team which is the only reason i don't think what happened there has anything to do with what may happen with me3. Although in saying that i would be remiss not to mention that a part of me does worry that this is the first real sign of what an EABioware hybrid considers a good gaming experience.
Things were handled badly in me2 on a lot of levels from my perspective, me3 has a chance to fix and improve upon so much and to give the series the epicness it was built up to have.. Whether or not it does time will tell and we may get everything we want or nothing at all.
My optimism or pessimism though isn't based on what i think i know but rather its based on what i don't know. Thats my main argument regarding this whole thread, we've taken the early blurbs and added our own opinions on them and reported them as fact when the truth is we just don't know yet.
We have a line in an article suggesting that not all squadmates will return as full squadmembers and we've taking that to read as we're getting screwed. When we should perhaps look at the fact that Garrus returns (ok we don't know how big a role) as a sign that maybe just maybe they will handle this one right.
We've taken the line that the VS and Liara would return and would be playable to some extent to mean that these characters are returning as full squadmembers when it could easily mean that they too will be handled the same as the me2 crew.
We're in the process of the first pieces of info being released, we haven't really seen a trailer or gameplay yet and we're acting like we already know everything and we have seen how they will handle every single character, while in reality we know very little and have no idea how they will deal with any character.
Thats been my point all along, maybe i badly communicated it but thats it in a nutshell.
Trust me on this though if the worst case scenario comes through, if characters are relegated in importance because thats the easy way to handle them, if squadmembership is based not on who should be in a squad but whos easiest to be in a squad, then i will be the first one screaming foul and i will light the pitchforks to burn bioware to the ground (ok maybe i'll just vote by keeping my cash).
me2 in some ways fooled me, shame on me, dragon age 2 fooled me more shame on them, me3 fools me and there will be hell to pay and the devil he don't accept no credit refunds.
No worries about your comments at all.
Da2 was a different team which is the only reason i don't think what happened there has anything to do with what may happen with me3. Although in saying that i would be remiss not to mention that a part of me does worry that this is the first real sign of what an EABioware hybrid considers a good gaming experience.
Things were handled badly in me2 on a lot of levels from my perspective, me3 has a chance to fix and improve upon so much and to give the series the epicness it was built up to have.. Whether or not it does time will tell and we may get everything we want or nothing at all.
My optimism or pessimism though isn't based on what i think i know but rather its based on what i don't know. Thats my main argument regarding this whole thread, we've taken the early blurbs and added our own opinions on them and reported them as fact when the truth is we just don't know yet.
We have a line in an article suggesting that not all squadmates will return as full squadmembers and we've taking that to read as we're getting screwed. When we should perhaps look at the fact that Garrus returns (ok we don't know how big a role) as a sign that maybe just maybe they will handle this one right.
We've taken the line that the VS and Liara would return and would be playable to some extent to mean that these characters are returning as full squadmembers when it could easily mean that they too will be handled the same as the me2 crew.
We're in the process of the first pieces of info being released, we haven't really seen a trailer or gameplay yet and we're acting like we already know everything and we have seen how they will handle every single character, while in reality we know very little and have no idea how they will deal with any character.
Thats been my point all along, maybe i badly communicated it but thats it in a nutshell.
Trust me on this though if the worst case scenario comes through, if characters are relegated in importance because thats the easy way to handle them, if squadmembership is based not on who should be in a squad but whos easiest to be in a squad, then i will be the first one screaming foul and i will light the pitchforks to burn bioware to the ground (ok maybe i'll just vote by keeping my cash).
me2 in some ways fooled me, shame on me, dragon age 2 fooled me more shame on them, me3 fools me and there will be hell to pay and the devil he don't accept no credit refunds.
#154
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:16
Dean_the_Young
-
- Members
- 20 684 messages
...have you considered the problem is very likely on your end, and not Bioware's? If you spent X00 hours on a game setting up a perfect carryover for what you wished ME3 to be... the only person responsible for that choice, and that presumption, is you.Babe Mause wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
What's in it for those like us who put in 100s of hours to get our playthroughs perfect? a 2 minutes cameo? Really? So much for choices and emotional investment
+100000
Bioware never promised you'd get all your ME1/ME2 squad back as permanent squad members. Bioware never even promised half of them, or any of them back, as permanent squad members. It was always an assumption on your part (despite, somehow, missing the return-rate for ME1 to ME2's squad), and it was one you carried on for X00 hours despite various team member openly telling you or foreshadowing that they would have other things to do besides stick to your squad.
'Not entertaining my imagined fantasy scenario' is not, and has never been, 'punishment.' No matter how many hundreds of hours you spend on it.
#155
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:39
alperez
-
- Members
- 880 messages
Babe Mause i'm going to try and answer your post point by point since my quoting skills leave a lot to be desired.
1. The Vs. What i meant about this was that fans of the character were pissed with me2 because of the perception of how the character was treated.
2.killing characters. If anything the Vs supporters were in this position too because they wrongly assumed the choice would greatly impact me2. If they had have done plot deaths in me2 it would have made the variables themselve that much more complex. As it was if you don't do A or b then character c dies. To plot death a number of characters they would have had to redesign the system they had in place for me2 completely something they really didn't want obviously.
3. Not seeing it coming. What i meant by this was that seeing how they handled the situations from me1 with characters who could possibly die, then going into me2 and seeing how these characters were treated and not worrying that this may be something that could happen with the results of the SM.
I agree totally that at no point does it look like the characters who survive will leave or do anything other than be with Shepard for the final battle in me3. But like i've said we don't know yet how they will be handled amd given what we know about how the game starts, it also makes no sense that they would all ready to go right from the get go.
4. Characters doing their own thing. What i meant by this and by the examples was that it may make sense for certain characters not to return as full squaddies while with others it would not. Take Garrus for example it could be argued that Garrus seeing his own planet and people under attack would return to help the turians however to me that would not make storyline sense.
Garrus has been with Shepard from the beginning he's seen Shepard twice beat the unbeatable odds and would or should know that Shepard is the best chance to stop the reapers and save his planet so it makes more sense that he would stay and fight alongside shepard.
But thats not the truth with every single character and we don't know yet which ones will be handled in which way.
5. Tali and legion's importance. SInce we agree basically on not knowing exactly the details i'll instead work on what you said re? Wrex/Wreave.
There is a fundamental difference in what both of these are trying to acheive and how they're trying to achieve it, one which may play a big role or not in me3. Considering we have yet to see it play out its hard to justify saying that which one is in charge makes little or no difference, these are somethings that may or may not once we play me3 be moments we go AHA or that sucks.
6. To buy or not to buy. Considering the game is probably already finished arguing that characters been cameo'd can only be argued now is kinda pointless. They've already done most likely what they've done and whether we buy or not is up to us. We will no doubt know more anout how they've handled the characters come purchase time and we can vote with our wallets then.
However i agree completely in the respect that if they've gone the cameo for everyone route or chosen the squads based not on who makes sense to be there but who is easier to program then i will not be buying me3 and will vote by saving my cash for something else.
7. Character importance. I agree completely with you on this, characters make or break the story without them its meaningless imo. If they go the me2 route and relegate characters because thats the easy way then they deserver not only criticism but burning at the bloody stake (i'll bring the firelighters)
But the fact is we know very little and assume so much here that it seems like we've decided before hearing whether we're right or wrong. We could be pleasantly surprised or horribly crushed but at this stage we know not which.
Lastly a not so wise man once said.
Now what is the message there? The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
1. The Vs. What i meant about this was that fans of the character were pissed with me2 because of the perception of how the character was treated.
2.killing characters. If anything the Vs supporters were in this position too because they wrongly assumed the choice would greatly impact me2. If they had have done plot deaths in me2 it would have made the variables themselve that much more complex. As it was if you don't do A or b then character c dies. To plot death a number of characters they would have had to redesign the system they had in place for me2 completely something they really didn't want obviously.
3. Not seeing it coming. What i meant by this was that seeing how they handled the situations from me1 with characters who could possibly die, then going into me2 and seeing how these characters were treated and not worrying that this may be something that could happen with the results of the SM.
I agree totally that at no point does it look like the characters who survive will leave or do anything other than be with Shepard for the final battle in me3. But like i've said we don't know yet how they will be handled amd given what we know about how the game starts, it also makes no sense that they would all ready to go right from the get go.
4. Characters doing their own thing. What i meant by this and by the examples was that it may make sense for certain characters not to return as full squaddies while with others it would not. Take Garrus for example it could be argued that Garrus seeing his own planet and people under attack would return to help the turians however to me that would not make storyline sense.
Garrus has been with Shepard from the beginning he's seen Shepard twice beat the unbeatable odds and would or should know that Shepard is the best chance to stop the reapers and save his planet so it makes more sense that he would stay and fight alongside shepard.
But thats not the truth with every single character and we don't know yet which ones will be handled in which way.
5. Tali and legion's importance. SInce we agree basically on not knowing exactly the details i'll instead work on what you said re? Wrex/Wreave.
There is a fundamental difference in what both of these are trying to acheive and how they're trying to achieve it, one which may play a big role or not in me3. Considering we have yet to see it play out its hard to justify saying that which one is in charge makes little or no difference, these are somethings that may or may not once we play me3 be moments we go AHA or that sucks.
6. To buy or not to buy. Considering the game is probably already finished arguing that characters been cameo'd can only be argued now is kinda pointless. They've already done most likely what they've done and whether we buy or not is up to us. We will no doubt know more anout how they've handled the characters come purchase time and we can vote with our wallets then.
However i agree completely in the respect that if they've gone the cameo for everyone route or chosen the squads based not on who makes sense to be there but who is easier to program then i will not be buying me3 and will vote by saving my cash for something else.
7. Character importance. I agree completely with you on this, characters make or break the story without them its meaningless imo. If they go the me2 route and relegate characters because thats the easy way then they deserver not only criticism but burning at the bloody stake (i'll bring the firelighters)
But the fact is we know very little and assume so much here that it seems like we've decided before hearing whether we're right or wrong. We could be pleasantly surprised or horribly crushed but at this stage we know not which.
Lastly a not so wise man once said.
Now what is the message there? The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
#156
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 05:40
crimzontearz
-
- Members
- 16 789 messages
Dean_the_Young wrote...
...have you considered the problem is very likely on your end, and not Bioware's? If you spent X00 hours on a game setting up a perfect carryover for what you wished ME3 to be... the only person responsible for that choice, and that presumption, is you.Babe Mause wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
What's in it for those like us who put in 100s of hours to get our playthroughs perfect? a 2 minutes cameo? Really? So much for choices and emotional investment
+100000
Bioware never promised you'd get all your ME1/ME2 squad back as permanent squad members. Bioware never even promised half of them, or any of them back, as permanent squad members. It was always an assumption on your part (despite, somehow, missing the return-rate for ME1 to ME2's squad), and it was one you carried on for X00 hours despite various team member openly telling you or foreshadowing that they would have other things to do besides stick to your squad.
'Not entertaining my imagined fantasy scenario' is not, and has never been, 'punishment.' No matter how many hundreds of hours you spend on it.
the selling point, the core selling point one could say, of the ME serie was that "choices matter"
if the most personal choices are handwaved, or become irrelevant to the greater scheme, or the result of them is simply a 2 minutes cameo then perhaps, just perhaps, in the eyes of many bioware has not fulfilled their promises and/or have failed to deliver on the expectations they, themselves, created for the game above all when half of the ME2 marketing campaign revolved around "emotional investment"
#157
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 06:12
SalsaDMA
-
- Members
- 2 512 messages
Nohvarr wrote...
So one mistake from a different team means that another team, whose been working on a planned trilogy long before DA 2 was considered, will make the same mistake?
Hey, why not keep it in the spirit of the franchise when making that comment?
"They went rogue..."
#158
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 06:20
SalsaDMA
-
- Members
- 2 512 messages
Dean_the_Young wrote...
...have you considered the problem is very likely on your end, and not Bioware's? If you spent X00 hours on a game setting up a perfect carryover for what you wished ME3 to be... the only person responsible for that choice, and that presumption, is you.Babe Mause wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
What's in it for those like us who put in 100s of hours to get our playthroughs perfect? a 2 minutes cameo? Really? So much for choices and emotional investment
+100000
Bioware never promised you'd get all your ME1/ME2 squad back as permanent squad members. Bioware never even promised half of them, or any of them back, as permanent squad members. It was always an assumption on your part (despite, somehow, missing the return-rate for ME1 to ME2's squad), and it was one you carried on for X00 hours despite various team member openly telling you or foreshadowing that they would have other things to do besides stick to your squad.
'Not entertaining my imagined fantasy scenario' is not, and has never been, 'punishment.' No matter how many hundreds of hours you spend on it.
I think his 'perfect playthrough' is not targeted as 'everyone survives' but 'the specific people I want to survive does so, and the specific people I want to die, does so'. Quite a few people have invested lots of time to make such saves where they deliberately kill of specific individuals to see the effect it will have on the story.
So far, from the info we get of 'nobody looses out' and 'decisions are all rewarded equally' it sounds like their work will end up in Wrex v2. Ie. mostly a cosmetic change in a totally linear setup, where the setup itself is unchanged regardless of your choice(s).
#159
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 10:29
Pani Mauser
-
- Members
- 401 messages
alperez wrote...
1. The Vs. What i meant about this was that fans of the character were pissed with me2 because of the perception of how the character was treated.
I understood what you meant. The encounter indeed was really awfully executed, but nevertheless, there was still hope for their return in ME3, and now you see that this hope became reality. So, situation is not similar. There's no next game to hope for.
alperez wrote...
2.killing characters. If anything the Vs supporters were in this position too because they wrongly assumed the choice would greatly impact me2. If they had have done plot deaths in me2 it would have made the variables themselve that much more complex. As it was if you don't do A or b then character c dies. To plot death a number of characters they would have had to redesign the system they had in place for me2 completely something they really didn't want obviously.
Unfortunately, it seems that Ash and Kaidan from the very beginning were virtually the same character plotwise, just split in different genders (I believe, for romance purpose). So, one of them had to die. And as they had overall story for years, they knew that some charas can’t do much in the last part, thus they could have scripted dramatic deaths for them.
For example, they knew that Liara is back in ME3, so you don’t need another asari on board. Thus, Samara could be made obligatory choice for the shields and then die dramatically out of exhaustion. Yes, it would be tragic, but at least it would be fair to the player. The noble death would be more memorable than some short cameo, especially when player expected her to return in full capacity.
alperez wrote...
3. Not seeing it coming. What i meant by this was that seeing how they handled the situations from me1 with characters who could possibly die, then going into me2 and seeing how these characters were treated and not worrying that this may be something that could happen with the results of the SM.
As I said, I thought that ME2 was meant to get new people on your team, so you could have the whole army in ME3. And if you didn’t like some new or returning characters, you were given a chance to get rid of them.
After all, most characters didn't have big plot points behind them (Thane, Jack, Samara, Jacob, Miranda, Garrus, Zaeed, Kasumi), so if they died, people would miss out only on their dialogs and their powers. And if people killed some characters who could make influence of the plot (Tali, Legion, Grunt, Mordin), it would just mean that they already chose their sides in future conflicts, so peaceful option is out of question.
Also I hoped for broader role for Wrex in ME3, so I was not frustrated about his short role. Disappointed a bit, yes, but not frustrated. I didn't expect plot guns to fire mid-story, so I was ok with some character being moved to the background. But again, I hoped I will have all of them back in ME3.
Apparently, I was wrong.
alperez wrote...
4. Characters doing their own thing.
But thats not the truth with every single character and we don't know yet which ones will be handled in which way.
After the end of ME1 nether Garrus, nor Wrex, nor Tali, nor Liara had reason to stay with Shepard. Garrus and Wrex only wanted to get Saren in the begining, Tali needed to complete her pilgrimage and Liara as an archeologist had no reason to stay on military ship unless romanced. And even then it would make more sense for her just to wait for Shepard in some peaceful port.
But as we know from ME2, everyone stayed with Shepard until his/her death because they become friends. And only after Shepard was no more they returned to their lives. Even Tali didn’t go back to Flotilla to complete her pilgrimage. So, I hoped that new team also would prefer to stay with Shepard no matter what.
And even if they were forced to leave by Alliance, I expected them to return when they are called, just like with ME2. Tali becomes available after 1/3 of the game was complete, Legion becomes available after 2/3 of game is done, and they still had the same treatment as others, so I wouldn’t mind if I got some squadmates only later in the game.
And again I was wrong.
alperez wrote...
6. To buy or not to buy. Considering the game is probably already finished arguing that characters been cameo'd can only be argued now is kinda pointless. They've already done most likely what they've done and whether we buy or not is up to us. We will no doubt know more anout how they've handled the characters come purchase time and we can vote with our wallets then.
For me ME3 is definitely the buy no matter what. I love most info they release about the game. It’s just sad that the small part I don’t like is the most important to me. Anyways, I want a closure for the game, so I’m getting it. Also, I have Sheps for every romance, so at least Sheps with Liara, VS and Garrus will get proper treatment, and I want to see it for myself.
If I was on the fence about buying the game, I would never bother with posting here. I would indeed just wait and decide on buying after reading reviews. But right now there is still a slight hope that devs will listen to complaints about cameos and add some additional dialogs or scenes last minute. It is indeed too late to change core structure of the game, but they still can make additional dialogs. It’s not like they need crazy amount of programming to do it. As I remember, Kelly’s romance was also last minute addition, and it was pretty good for last minute addition.
Also, right now BW announced a delay, so it gives me hope they will use additional time to broaden interaction with those characters that got to be cameos.
alperez wrote...
Lastly a not so wise man once said.
Now what is the message there? The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
You know, I would feel a lot better now if they didn’t say a word about new squad. As they say, the less you know the better you sleep. But revealing some characters and keeping info on others in shadows annoys me. In such cases I become paranoid and assume the worst forteh facts I don't know.
They could just show the new guy and keep the role of all previous characters as a mystery. At least this way we wouldn’t have topics like this right now.
Modifié par Babe Mause, 04 mai 2011 - 10:31 .
#160
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 03:13
alperez
-
- Members
- 880 messages
Babe Mause
If i'm wrong then i apologise in advance, but to me it seems your issue is how you've perceived the limited released info. You seem to have taken the fact that we know not all squadmates will return as full squadmates to mean that this is in some way us being shafted and our choices not mattering.
Basically you've seen a glimmer of the future and it's not one you particularly like which if true i can completely understand and completely agree with. However you seem to have taken the most negative view of the info available and disregarded the postive completely.
In terms of whether or not the me2 squad returns in a meaningful capicity you seem to have already decided that this won't be the case and your argument is based on this unknown scenario.
I agree with you to some extent on how the series should be concluded and how important it is for character continunity that characters come back and play a meaningful role in me3. Where we seem to disagree though is that i see nothing in the info we've been given so far that seems to suggest that this won't be the case. We've been told that some characters will play full roles, others temp and other cameo's which ones we don't know and how its integrated we have no idea. I've said there are genuine storyline reasons already apparent from me2 which may suggest that a character may not be around fully in me3 and this is without the full known story implications of me3 itself.
In terms of either releasing no squad info or some bioware are caught between a rock and a hard place, if they say nothing they're damned and villified and if they say something about one character it leads to now tell me about x dagnammit. Its a tricky situation where they have to appeal to the fans of the series and also try to keep some plot details back either until release of the game itself or until the next flood of info release.
2 things you say that i'll try to adress though are the samara death scenario and Ash/Kaiden being basically interchangeble.
Unlike with me1 where they only had one potential squadmate death which like you i agree was badly handled they set the whole game of me2 up for there to be lots or none, for them then to add in essential plot deaths on top of it would have forced a complete rethink of the game mechanics and a completely different ending. It also eliminates any choice whatsoever (which we did have with the Vs to an extent) and since we still don't know how the choices or consequence play out that is something we cant' be sure isn't there for a reason.
We don't know if the experience of me3 will be greatly impacted by how we played the SM or if it will have basically no bearing on it at all which until we do means we can't really know if simply going with plot deaths or how they went is the right or wrong way to go.
Ash/Kaiden being completely interchangeable is also a tricky one because yes the role in me2 really was that way whereas in me1 they were distinctly different. But a cameo experience doesnt really allow for distinctness of personality to show that much, its over way to quickly and can be overanalyzed way to easily. I agree that in me2 it seems that way but we've yet to see me3 and how its handled and then and only then would it be fair to judge.
Put it this way if you took a few minute snapshot of any character you could say the exact same thing, look at changing characters when you make choices in me1 or me2 and take the limited dialogue they use, Collector base choice, Rachni choice etc. You could say that these characters are basically interchangeble but that doesn't really do justice to the characters because your looking at a snapshot.
The cameo itself could and should have been handled better but they perhaps felt that we wouldn't overanalyze it or that those of use who liked Ash wouldn't bother to see the Kaiden cameo and therefore wouldn't see they had basically just subsituted one for the other.
I understand and share most if not all of your concerns and i too agree completely with the banner on the end of your posts. However at this stage given what we know or think we know find it easier to adopt a wait and see approach rather than to take it as red that everything we fear will happen will actually happen.
If i'm wrong then i apologise in advance, but to me it seems your issue is how you've perceived the limited released info. You seem to have taken the fact that we know not all squadmates will return as full squadmates to mean that this is in some way us being shafted and our choices not mattering.
Basically you've seen a glimmer of the future and it's not one you particularly like which if true i can completely understand and completely agree with. However you seem to have taken the most negative view of the info available and disregarded the postive completely.
In terms of whether or not the me2 squad returns in a meaningful capicity you seem to have already decided that this won't be the case and your argument is based on this unknown scenario.
I agree with you to some extent on how the series should be concluded and how important it is for character continunity that characters come back and play a meaningful role in me3. Where we seem to disagree though is that i see nothing in the info we've been given so far that seems to suggest that this won't be the case. We've been told that some characters will play full roles, others temp and other cameo's which ones we don't know and how its integrated we have no idea. I've said there are genuine storyline reasons already apparent from me2 which may suggest that a character may not be around fully in me3 and this is without the full known story implications of me3 itself.
In terms of either releasing no squad info or some bioware are caught between a rock and a hard place, if they say nothing they're damned and villified and if they say something about one character it leads to now tell me about x dagnammit. Its a tricky situation where they have to appeal to the fans of the series and also try to keep some plot details back either until release of the game itself or until the next flood of info release.
2 things you say that i'll try to adress though are the samara death scenario and Ash/Kaiden being basically interchangeble.
Unlike with me1 where they only had one potential squadmate death which like you i agree was badly handled they set the whole game of me2 up for there to be lots or none, for them then to add in essential plot deaths on top of it would have forced a complete rethink of the game mechanics and a completely different ending. It also eliminates any choice whatsoever (which we did have with the Vs to an extent) and since we still don't know how the choices or consequence play out that is something we cant' be sure isn't there for a reason.
We don't know if the experience of me3 will be greatly impacted by how we played the SM or if it will have basically no bearing on it at all which until we do means we can't really know if simply going with plot deaths or how they went is the right or wrong way to go.
Ash/Kaiden being completely interchangeable is also a tricky one because yes the role in me2 really was that way whereas in me1 they were distinctly different. But a cameo experience doesnt really allow for distinctness of personality to show that much, its over way to quickly and can be overanalyzed way to easily. I agree that in me2 it seems that way but we've yet to see me3 and how its handled and then and only then would it be fair to judge.
Put it this way if you took a few minute snapshot of any character you could say the exact same thing, look at changing characters when you make choices in me1 or me2 and take the limited dialogue they use, Collector base choice, Rachni choice etc. You could say that these characters are basically interchangeble but that doesn't really do justice to the characters because your looking at a snapshot.
The cameo itself could and should have been handled better but they perhaps felt that we wouldn't overanalyze it or that those of use who liked Ash wouldn't bother to see the Kaiden cameo and therefore wouldn't see they had basically just subsituted one for the other.
I understand and share most if not all of your concerns and i too agree completely with the banner on the end of your posts. However at this stage given what we know or think we know find it easier to adopt a wait and see approach rather than to take it as red that everything we fear will happen will actually happen.
#161
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:11
SalsaDMA
-
- Members
- 2 512 messages
Well, with the anouncement of the delay, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they might actually listened to us regarding our attachment to our team, and thus might give us back all our teammembers anyway.
After all, most of ME2 was appearantly them listening to their fans and trying to jam a story together about it, so let's hope they use the extra time now to give us our team back instead of unsatisfaying cameo appearances.
I'll still wait for the reviews to tell me about the game and character-handlings before I opt to buy it at release or if I should wait till it bombs to a sale.
How they handle ME3 will dictate wether or not I have enough faith in them to start with The old republic. So if they miss the mark on ME3, as they did with DA2, they can forget about my money in SW:TOR as well.
After all, most of ME2 was appearantly them listening to their fans and trying to jam a story together about it, so let's hope they use the extra time now to give us our team back instead of unsatisfaying cameo appearances.
I'll still wait for the reviews to tell me about the game and character-handlings before I opt to buy it at release or if I should wait till it bombs to a sale.
How they handle ME3 will dictate wether or not I have enough faith in them to start with The old republic. So if they miss the mark on ME3, as they did with DA2, they can forget about my money in SW:TOR as well.
#162
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:07
B3NGU1N
-
- Members
- 43 messages
Didnt someone say that certain squadmates were optional? Don't quote me on that, but i couldve sworn that I saw it somewhere. I think the best way to see which characters are coming back is by what they actually do for the team, i.e tank or biotic.
It's already been stated that the squad will be smaller, so that means that not everyone will be back and we've already had 3 or 4 slots taken. So, if we run it through what each squadmate does for the team, gameplay wise, we might be able to get a good idea of who they will bring back.
For example, Sanders is supposed to be a tank, which, much to my dismay, probebly means that Grunt will not be returning, despite his sworn loyalty to you on Tuchanka. Liara covers the role of Biotic, so I would guess that we might not get another one of them. Garrus is sniper/infiltrator, so i cant see legion coming back into the squad either.
It's already been stated that the squad will be smaller, so that means that not everyone will be back and we've already had 3 or 4 slots taken. So, if we run it through what each squadmate does for the team, gameplay wise, we might be able to get a good idea of who they will bring back.
For example, Sanders is supposed to be a tank, which, much to my dismay, probebly means that Grunt will not be returning, despite his sworn loyalty to you on Tuchanka. Liara covers the role of Biotic, so I would guess that we might not get another one of them. Garrus is sniper/infiltrator, so i cant see legion coming back into the squad either.
#163
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:09
GroovieBuff
-
- Members
- 93 messages
Well, obviously Samara won't be returning. And thank God for that. Between her and miranda, I looked like a slightly dangerous twig at best. 
miranda and Jacob would probably hit the highway...or maybe not.
What's probably going to happen is the more crew members you have [alive], the easier it is to defeat the reapers and unite the races of the universe.
Grunt and Wrex will convince the Krogan to help you out.
Jake and miranda will be the sort of "inside scoop" on Cerberus.
mordin will assist in getting the Salarians to join the fight.
Jack will hijack (pun intended) a vessel or pull some strings somewhere and help. I don't know.
Legion will pull some techno-strings and round up the geth (that you didn't kill..remember that choice?).
Tali will whine and complain until her people show up.
Garrus will...be Garrus.
Thane will stick around; seriously, where else is he going to go? On holiday with his son? I personally hope that he'll convince the Hanar to form a sort of jellyfish platoon.
In the mix, the Krogan will be at better odds with the Saliarians, the Geth with make friends with the Quarians, and the Turians will be at better odds with the humans. The Asari will remain vastly sexual. The Elcor...hilarious.
That's what I'm thinking so far...
miranda and Jacob would probably hit the highway...or maybe not.
What's probably going to happen is the more crew members you have [alive], the easier it is to defeat the reapers and unite the races of the universe.
Grunt and Wrex will convince the Krogan to help you out.
Jake and miranda will be the sort of "inside scoop" on Cerberus.
mordin will assist in getting the Salarians to join the fight.
Jack will hijack (pun intended) a vessel or pull some strings somewhere and help. I don't know.
Legion will pull some techno-strings and round up the geth (that you didn't kill..remember that choice?).
Tali will whine and complain until her people show up.
Garrus will...be Garrus.
Thane will stick around; seriously, where else is he going to go? On holiday with his son? I personally hope that he'll convince the Hanar to form a sort of jellyfish platoon.
In the mix, the Krogan will be at better odds with the Saliarians, the Geth with make friends with the Quarians, and the Turians will be at better odds with the humans. The Asari will remain vastly sexual. The Elcor...hilarious.
That's what I'm thinking so far...
Modifié par GroovieBuff, 05 mai 2011 - 05:14 .
#164
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:25
PrinceLionheart
-
- Members
- 2 597 messages
Hate to say I told you so, but... 
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
#165
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:49
SalsaDMA
-
- Members
- 2 512 messages
PrinceLionheart wrote...
Hate to say I told you so, but...
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
Hate to tell you this, but not only is your argument flawed, but your entire post is nothing but a 'look at me' thing.
It's no issue to make characters with large plot implications killable, in fact such a thing would more than anything constitute a real breathing world where you could feel a cause and effect implication of your actions. In other words, a sign of quality.
Ofc, if you only aim for the quick McDrive, go ahead and aim for a 100% linear railroaded story that ight as well have been a slideshow (ala Arival).
I'm still hoping that Bioware got the sense to see that such a move wouldn't be acceptable to their fans.
#166
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 06:28
PrinceLionheart
-
- Members
- 2 597 messages
SalsaDMA wrote...
PrinceLionheart wrote...
Hate to say I told you so, but...
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
Hate to tell you this, but not only is your argument flawed, but your entire post is nothing but a 'look at me' thing.
It's no issue to make characters with large plot implications killable, in fact such a thing would more than anything constitute a real breathing world where you could feel a cause and effect implication of your actions. In other words, a sign of quality.
Ofc, if you only aim for the quick McDrive, go ahead and aim for a 100% linear railroaded story that ight as well have been a slideshow (ala Arival).
I'm still hoping that Bioware got the sense to see that such a move wouldn't be acceptable to their fans.
And I hate to tell you this but you're using the same exact flawed argument others have used in the past. The fact that these characters ARE killable is the exact reason they won't be plot heavy characters in the third game. Dragon Age Awakening should've been a heavy hint to everyone how Bioware would have handeled the ME2 crew.
And on the same token, making it so killable characters are still essential would simply be railroading players to play a certain way anyway.
But forget all that, I'm just being an attention seeker right now.
#167
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 07:19
SalsaDMA
-
- Members
- 2 512 messages
PrinceLionheart wrote...
SalsaDMA wrote...
PrinceLionheart wrote...
Hate to say I told you so, but...
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
Hate to tell you this, but not only is your argument flawed, but your entire post is nothing but a 'look at me' thing.
It's no issue to make characters with large plot implications killable, in fact such a thing would more than anything constitute a real breathing world where you could feel a cause and effect implication of your actions. In other words, a sign of quality.
Ofc, if you only aim for the quick McDrive, go ahead and aim for a 100% linear railroaded story that ight as well have been a slideshow (ala Arival).
I'm still hoping that Bioware got the sense to see that such a move wouldn't be acceptable to their fans.
And I hate to tell you this but you're using the same exact flawed argument others have used in the past. The fact that these characters ARE killable is the exact reason they won't be plot heavy characters in the third game. Dragon Age Awakening should've been a heavy hint to everyone how Bioware would have handeled the ME2 crew.
And on the same token, making it so killable characters are still essential would simply be railroading players to play a certain way anyway.
But forget all that, I'm just being an attention seeker right now.
You're not saying anything new, you're still just asuming a flawed position where writing of a story MUST be bad for your argument to work. Good writing is perfectly able to deal, and deal elegantly, with plot relevant points being able to go different ways.
Look at it like this: If no choices are able to let you make the plot move in different directions, why have choices at all?
It doesn't matter if the choice consists of picking a red or blue line in a dialog wheel, or if the choice consists of wether you make a character survive the Suicide mission. Ultimately both cases illustrated in the previous sentence boils down to a choice that could possible impact the plot.
Maybe having Mordin dead prevents the Genophage from being cured -> impact on plot
Maybe having Mordin alive allows the Genophage to be cured -> impact on plot
Maybe telling Mordin to keep the cure data allows the genophage to be cured -> impact on plot
Mabye telling Mordin to ditch the data on the genophage prevents the genophage from being cured -> impact on plot
Either way is perfectly viable as a means to allow for different directions of the plot. For example, Access to the cure might make Krogans alot more interested in fighting, since they know they will not doom themselves to extinction by bearing the brunt of the frontline attack. Thereby meaning that the choice means you either have access to missions about convincing the krogans to aid you, or about trying to get enough resources to gear all the krogans that want to join up proper. 2 different missions, quite possible 2 different settings even, and 2 quite distinctly different feels on the plot and playthrough.
What you are advocating for, however, is crappy storytelling, crappy handling of the entire franchise, and basicly you're asking for 'a quick buck meal' wihtout sustance nor taste.
#168
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:47
GroovieBuff
-
- Members
- 93 messages
SalsaDMA wrote...
PrinceLionheart wrote...
SalsaDMA wrote...
PrinceLionheart wrote...
Hate to say I told you so, but...
This is exactly what myself and others stated would happen with the ME2 squad. Simple fact of the matter is, since they can do, there's no feasible way they can be important to the plot.
Hate to tell you this, but not only is your argument flawed, but your entire post is nothing but a 'look at me' thing.
It's no issue to make characters with large plot implications killable, in fact such a thing would more than anything constitute a real breathing world where you could feel a cause and effect implication of your actions. In other words, a sign of quality.
Ofc, if you only aim for the quick McDrive, go ahead and aim for a 100% linear railroaded story that ight as well have been a slideshow (ala Arival).
I'm still hoping that Bioware got the sense to see that such a move wouldn't be acceptable to their fans.
And I hate to tell you this but you're using the same exact flawed argument others have used in the past. The fact that these characters ARE killable is the exact reason they won't be plot heavy characters in the third game. Dragon Age Awakening should've been a heavy hint to everyone how Bioware would have handeled the ME2 crew.
And on the same token, making it so killable characters are still essential would simply be railroading players to play a certain way anyway.
But forget all that, I'm just being an attention seeker right now.
You're not saying anything new, you're still just asuming a flawed position where writing of a story MUST be bad for your argument to work. Good writing is perfectly able to deal, and deal elegantly, with plot relevant points being able to go different ways.
Look at it like this: If no choices are able to let you make the plot move in different directions, why have choices at all?
It doesn't matter if the choice consists of picking a red or blue line in a dialog wheel, or if the choice consists of wether you make a character survive the Suicide mission. Ultimately both cases illustrated in the previous sentence boils down to a choice that could possible impact the plot.
Maybe having Mordin dead prevents the Genophage from being cured -> impact on plot
Maybe having Mordin alive allows the Genophage to be cured -> impact on plot
Maybe telling Mordin to keep the cure data allows the genophage to be cured -> impact on plot
Mabye telling Mordin to ditch the data on the genophage prevents the genophage from being cured -> impact on plot
Either way is perfectly viable as a means to allow for different directions of the plot. For example, Access to the cure might make Krogans alot more interested in fighting, since they know they will not doom themselves to extinction by bearing the brunt of the frontline attack. Thereby meaning that the choice means you either have access to missions about convincing the krogans to aid you, or about trying to get enough resources to gear all the krogans that want to join up proper. 2 different missions, quite possible 2 different settings even, and 2 quite distinctly different feels on the plot and playthrough.
What you are advocating for, however, is crappy storytelling, crappy handling of the entire franchise, and basicly you're asking for 'a quick buck meal' wihtout sustance nor taste.
Will you marry me?
That was an incredibly thorough point you made there. It's good to know that advocates for superb story-telling exist within the gaming world. You not only understand that the story and characters drove the game and made it fun and eciting to play, but you address it in a very concise and, dear I say it, intellectual manner. Kudos, my dear friend. I agree with you 100%
