Modifié par Nyoka, 05 mai 2011 - 11:45 .
Turian Ladies: THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN
Débuté par
AdmiralCheez
, mai 02 2011 04:31
#576
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 11:41
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Chest hair is not an adaptation. You can't have it both ways. If fringes are an adaptation to a tough environment, then both sexes will have it. You still have to explain why they are different.
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#577
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:08
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Nyoka wrote...
Chest hair is not an adaptation. You can't have it both ways. If fringes are an adaptation to a tough environment, then both sexes will have it. You still have to explain why they are different.
The females DO have fringes (a fringe is just the outer most edge of something).
Anyway, I don't think chest hair is an adaption, well, not exactly (more a remnant of an adaptation). Which is why I think that one possibility for the DH female fringes being shorter is that both males and females used to have a lot more plating, just as both male and female humans used to have a lot more hair; then, for some reason(s) that we still don't understand, we lost a lot of hair, despite clearly needing it, and in a similar way the turians may have lost a lot of plating, and like us the females lost more than the males; and they could say that the only reason they didn't go extinct is for the same reason we didn't; we're smart and we adapted (we used fur, perhaps they did a similar thing).
Another possibility already mentioned is that not all females lack plating on the top because of a recessive gene(s) that could be more prevalent on low-radiation colony worlds, which may or may not affect both sexes.
Modifié par AwesomeName, 05 mai 2011 - 12:12 .
#579
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:20
AdmiralCheez
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He does this about once a week when all the mods are either asleep or at their day jobs.DuckSoup wrote...
Uh, you loser.
Let it pass.
#580
Guest_Blasto the jelly_*
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:25
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I shall call her Jarrus, and she is my Jarrus, yours for 200 credits.Deebe wrote...
#581
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:44
Leonia
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I don't consider the DH version to have any fringe at all or plating on the head (they have the standard face plating like men but that's it above the neck). I can almost buy into the idea of losing the need to have fringe/plating over time but it doesn't make sense for only one gender to be affected.
I see where you're going with the chest hair example and I can't think of a really good reason as to why men have it and women don't. Now I'm going to have to do some 'net searching because that's bothering me (kind of like why men have nipples..)
I see where you're going with the chest hair example and I can't think of a really good reason as to why men have it and women don't. Now I'm going to have to do some 'net searching because that's bothering me (kind of like why men have nipples..)
Modifié par leonia42, 05 mai 2011 - 12:45 .
#582
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:46
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Ah so it's not an adaptation, it's just a remnant. Then I agree.
#583
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 12:57
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I'm about to lose my cool, especially since the "ignore" function doesn't hide posts (what's the point of an ignore feature?).
On the remnant thing.. I like the idea, really, but to my eyes it appears the females (according to DH) have lost the neck plating and fringe altogether with no remnants left behind to remind us that they once had them. That's overdoing it and I blame the DH artists (who, as we have seen in other examples, can't draw male turians properly either).
On the remnant thing.. I like the idea, really, but to my eyes it appears the females (according to DH) have lost the neck plating and fringe altogether with no remnants left behind to remind us that they once had them. That's overdoing it and I blame the DH artists (who, as we have seen in other examples, can't draw male turians properly either).
#584
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 01:11
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Still making them look like in that pic is harder and more expensive than using the same model for both. And I haven't seen a good reason why using the same model is a bad thing.
#586
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 02:18
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leonia42 wrote...
I don't consider the DH version to have any fringe at all or plating on the head (they have the standard face plating like men but that's it above the neck). I can almost buy into the idea of losing the need to have fringe/plating over time but it doesn't make sense for only one gender to be affected.
I see where you're going with the chest hair example and I can't think of a really good reason as to why men have it and women don't. Now I'm going to have to do some 'net searching because that's bothering me (kind of like why men have nipples..)
Like I said, the idea was that both genders were affected, but females moreso than men (like us). I don't think anyone really knows why we lost our hair, tbh, but I'm sure there are plenty of ideas floating about. I always got the impression that we never actually lost the need for it, and fur/clothing was one solution we came up with, rather than the other way around, but I have no idea.
Having said that, an alternative idea that would probably make more people happy would be to just make the ME3 female neck plates extend further up and over their scalps and just explain that the DH females had a recessive gene(s) that's more common off-world. Either option may sound very pseudo-scientific, but it is Mass Effect, afterall.
As for the word "fringe"; I think we need to clarify the definition of this word to avoid confusion, because they do have a fringe! In this case, the fringe is just the outer most edge of the thing being referred to (in this case the "head fringe" is just the outer most edge of the head crest thingy). The male fringe ends in lots of spikes; the female one doesn't - but they're both fringes.
#587
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 02:21
Eradyn
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AwesomeName wrote...
Darc_Requiem wrote...
Looks really plain. The baldness doesn't make evolutionary sense either. Doesn't Palaven have higher the normal radiation and wasn't the Turian plating an adaptation to protect against it?
Yes... but we got through an ice age when we lacked a lot of body hair... Evolution isn't perfect; it's not the same as intelligent design. Genetic adaptation isn't the only way to adapt to a harsh environment - especially when you're an intelligent species like us, in which case you have way more options e.g. we used fur.
You countered your own point. We lacked fur because we didn't need it. We had things called clothing back then which did the job just fine. I am sure, had we not had other methods of relieving those environmental pressures, we'd either have evolved or died out (the latter had we more time to evolve back into such a trait, the former would have happened more quickly but only for those in areas affected by colder climates). Let's not forget that climates shift. There are warmer period in every ice age, and ice ages are cyclical.
Palaven's heightened radiation is a constant reality throughout the turians' evolutionary history. An ever-shifting climate is not on the same scale as a constant, far-reaching evolutionary pressure. Our body hair was not important for survival and so we've largely lost it. A turian's thickened skin and plating, however, is. Were it not, they never would have evolved, and retained, such a defense in the first place.
As for losing the fringe due to living on low-radiation planets...that makes no sense. One, I don't see how only the females would be affected and, two, you need more time to actually evolve that trait. It doesn't just spring up because, hey, there's lower radiation here.
Modifié par Eradyn, 05 mai 2011 - 02:25 .
#588
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 02:25
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AwesomeName wrote...
As for the word "fringe"; I think we need to clarify the definition of this word to avoid confusion, because they do have a fringe! In this case, the fringe is just the outer most edge of the thing being referred to (in this case the "head fringe" is just the outer most edge of the head crest thingy). The male fringe ends in lots of spikes; the female one doesn't - but they're both fringes.
Fair enough, I'll try to adjust to this definition and use it this way in the future.
And the idea that the DH females aren't from Palaven.. that could work, maybe. If it isn't made official canon, there's always fan/headcanon to explain the difference for us lore junkies that just need explanations on everything.
#589
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 02:28
Someone With Mass
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Darc_Requiem wrote...
*snip*
I like this concept best.
Don't know about the frontal bones (or what I assume to be the frontal bones), but it looks pretty good.
#590
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 02:33
Eradyn
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AwesomeName wrote...
As for the word "fringe"; I think we need to clarify the definition of this word to avoid confusion, because they do have a fringe! In this case, the fringe is just the outer most edge of the thing being referred to (in this case the "head fringe" is just the outer most edge of the head crest thingy). The male fringe ends in lots of spikes; the female one doesn't - but they're both fringes.
There is no confusion so let's not pretend. You know what others are speaking of and others, by and large, understand what you are speaking of. The issue is not one of confusion or misunderstanding, but of disagreement. I disagree with your definition and interpretation and you disagree with mine. That is the root of it.
#591
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:20
Black Raptor
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While not like the Asari, turian females are almost identical to turian males, even in the way they sound to humans.
Thus they have been in the other games, you guys just assumed they were all male.
Thus they have been in the other games, you guys just assumed they were all male.
#592
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:28
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Because chest hair isn't technically crucial for survival. It just makes you manly and therefore attractive to women. Thus you get more children and the male ones are hairy too.AwesomeName wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
@AwesomeName, then there's the question of why men adapted to radiation but women didn't.
They are adapted though (just not perfectly) - they just have less plating on the head (or at least the ones in Evolution do). Why, in some parts of the world, do men have lots of chest hair, but almost no women do?
Lots of species have variation in the apperence of males and females. Just as long as it isn't to debilitating to survival, its entirely possible. Plating on Palvan is a necessity thus it isn't something that will vary much between genders.
Head spikes and tattoos probably would be different.
#593
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:30
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Black Raptor wrote...
While not like the Asari, turian females are almost identical to turian males, even in the way they sound to humans.
Thus they have been in the other games, you guys just assumed they were all male.
This doesn't really bother me at all, I could handle it quiet well if all the races looked and sounded the same despite sex (Except Salarians for some reason.) I just would like it if they let it be known.
#594
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:36
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Eradyn wrote...
You countered your own point. We lacked fur because we didn't need it. We had things called clothing back then which did the job just fine. I am sure, had we not had other methods of relieving those environmental pressures, we'd either have evolved or died out (the latter had we more time to evolve back into such a trait, the former would have happened more quickly but only for those in areas affected by colder climates). Let's not forget that climates shift. There are warmer period in every ice age, and ice ages are cyclical.
Palaven's heightened radiation is a constant reality throughout the turians' evolutionary history. An ever-shifting climate is not on the same scale as a constant, far-reaching evolutionary pressure. Our body hair was not important for survival and so we've largely lost it. A turian's thickened skin and plating, however, is. Were it not, they never would have evolved, and retained, such a defense in the first place.
As for losing the fringe due to living on low-radiation planets...that makes no sense. One, I don't see how only the females would be affected and, two, you need more time to actually evolve that trait. It doesn't just spring up because, hey, there's lower radiation here.
I don't know - are you certain we lacked hair (not fur) because we didn't need it? As far as I'm aware, no one understands how it happened, and it's still a mystery. I always thought we lost it, despite needing it, then starting using fur - I could be completely wrong though, but I thought it was still open to speculation. I do appreciate your point about shifting climates though, but I still don't see why it's impossible.
As for the recessive gene alternative - well, no I don't think it would spring up because there's lower radiation around but maybe those genes already existed, or recently mutated by accident, or are the result of gene therapy and just had a better chance of survival on those worlds because it was somehow advantageous, or linked to another trait that was advantageous, in a similar way to how blue eyes became more common in Europe despite being recessive (possibly because bluer eyes was linked to lighter skin, which meant less problems with Vit. D production in darker places). As for males - well some might be affected too, but again, maybe it's just really rare, or is just expressed differently in the females (I mean, who knows how such hypothetical genes would interact with the rest of the genes in a turian male's DNA vs. a female's? - the writers could just make up all sorts of stuff there). As for the amount of time it would take - I suppose they could just say the Turians did a bit of eugenics? Look at what we've done with dogs in such a short amount of time. But, I don't know, I fully admit that that's all getting VERY long-winded, and it might be much better to simply leave it as a complete mystery that has baffled evolutionary scientsists everywhere in the galaxy.
Having said that, I'd be perfectly satisfied with the first idea (the body hair thing). Hell, I'd be perfectly satisfied with any type of pseudo-scientific explanation for the DH female turians, rather than a ret-con of them (it doesn't have to be air-tight, and sometimes some mystery is actually fine, I think). At the very least, I'll be happy if the only change they make for the ME3 females (if they include them) is extending the neck plating over their scalps to meet their fringes.
#595
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 04:38
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Black Raptor wrote...
Because chest hair isn't technically crucial for survival.
I know it isn't - and this was clarified in a later post I think.
#596
Guest_AwesomeName_*
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:13
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Eradyn wrote...
There is no confusion so let's not pretend. You know what others are speaking of and others, by and large, understand what you are speaking of. The issue is not one of confusion or misunderstanding, but of disagreement. I disagree with your definition and interpretation and you disagree with mine. That is the root of it.
I'm sorry, I was just going by the dictionary... And I think going by that definition helps avoid confusion (which I've seen in the past). In my opinion, I think some people have misunderstood what is defined as a turian fringe, and therefore I disagree with them and I've tried to explain why. Thanks for pointing out that we disagree with each other, though - I almost wasn't sure
Seriously though, I'm not sure what point is in pointing that out *shrugs*. It's not as though I don't understand that or even have a problem with it... :/
Modifié par AwesomeName, 05 mai 2011 - 05:32 .
#597
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Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:15
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I think the most favored idea to this day is that it's a side effect of neoteny. A bigger brain/body ratio was being positively selected in early humans, and the easiest way to get that is to slow down development to retain babylike characteristics, because babies already have huge heads in relation to their bodies. But another thing about babies (as well as chimp fetuses) is that they just happen to have less hair. So that trait was kinda carried along for no particular reason, as a harmless side effect.AwesomeName wrote...
I don't know - are you certain we lacked hair (not fur) because we didn't need it? As far as I'm aware, no one understands how it happened, and it's still a mystery. I always thought we lost it, despite needing it, then starting using fur - I could be completely wrong though, but I thought it was still open to speculation.
#598
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 05:22
Eradyn
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Nyoka wrote...
I think the most favored idea to this day is that it's a side effect of neoteny. A bigger brain/body ratio was being positively selected in early humans, and the easiest way to get that is to slow down development to retain babylike characteristics, because babies already have huge heads in relation to their bodies. But another thing about babies (as well as chimp fetuses) is that they just happen to have less hair. So that trait was kinda carried along for no particular reason, as a harmless side effect.
On a similar token, reading up on the Russian silver fox experiment provides some interesting insights into the retention of infantile traits and their link to domestication and related genetics. Humans retain many such traits in comparison to other apes.
Modifié par Eradyn, 05 mai 2011 - 05:22 .
#599
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 06:02
Darc_Requiem
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Black Raptor wrote...
While not like the Asari, turian females are almost identical to turian males, even in the way they sound to humans.
Thus they have been in the other games, you guys just assumed they were all male.
Which NPC's and where was this noted? From what I've read Bioware says differently.
#600
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 06:29
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Black Raptor wrote...
While not like the Asari, turian females are almost identical to turian males, even in the way they sound to humans.
Thus they have been in the other games, you guys just assumed they were all male.
No. We have not. The devs have stated on numerous occassions that they have not had any in the games.
