Aller au contenu

What If Varric Has Been Lying To Protect His Friend?

Débuté par Guest_iOnlySignIn_* , mai 02 2011 07:47

  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
40 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 07:47

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests
Thoughtout all of Dragon Age 2?

What if Hawke indeed planned their rise to power step by step, and Varric was just passing on false information/propaganda this whole time to Cassandra? Knowingly or not?

What if Hawke's motive of helping and keeping a cordial relationship with Aveline is only so that they can "have the Guard Captain in their pocket", and Kirkwall's second strongest military loyal to their best friend?

What if Hawke's real motive of dealing with the Arishok and the Qunari was indeed to exploit this foreign threat to become a hero in the minds of Kirkwall's people?

What if Hawke was deliberately involved in fomenting the Mage-Templar conflict, deliberately helping both sides to kill each other, just so that they can use the ensuing chaos to become Viscount?

What if Hawke knew of Anders' plot to blow up the Chantry, helped Anders willingly and knowingly, and then killed Anders in front of Meredith/Orsino to silence him? Sebastian suspected so (if you click him after killing Anders).

What if Meredith had actually been the only one who's seen Hawke's true motives? What if Hawke has even fooled Varric?

What if our perception of Hawke as a "glorified errand boy/girl" "with no particular talent" is but a facade, a camouflage that fooled everyone, including Varric, while in fact Hawke is the scheming mastermind social climber that Cassandra has suspected them to be in the very beginning?

_____________________________________________________________________________________
"I'm a compulsive liar." --Varric

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 mai 2011 - 07:49 .

#2
Nephi_1111
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 08:33

Nephi_1111
  • Members
  • 47 messages
I highly doubt the Dev's intended people to see it this way, Varric is just a framing device, what we see in the game is most likely supposed to be canon.

EDIT: and I've just realised my sig doesn't fit :(

Modifié par Nephi_1111, 02 mai 2011 - 08:34 .

#3
berelinde
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 09:17

berelinde
  • Members
  • 8 282 messages
That's a lot of "What ifs."

#4
LobselVith8
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 09:18

LobselVith8
  • Members
  • 16 993 messages
It does turn Hawke from a reactive individual who didn't even bother to investigate the accomplice who aided his own mother's murder into a proactive person who was pulling strings left and right.

#5
Amagoi
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 09:28

Amagoi
  • Members
  • 1 164 messages
Occam's razor. /thread

#6
Sussurus
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 09:34

Sussurus
  • Members
  • 520 messages
Honestly I played this as such a few times, first game pretty much as you stated.
It allows you to go out and head to the top, you can state often I want to be top dog.. loudly.

The only fork in the wheel is that of the Idol and Meredith's stance.
To me the rise up and plan to take as much as possible, is the only consistant in Hawkes character.
As to be fair it is one of the few consistancies we all share.

Modifié par Sussurus, 02 mai 2011 - 09:58 .

#7
Sarcastic Tasha
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 10:26

Sarcastic Tasha
  • Members
  • 1 183 messages
I thought this could be a possibility too. I like the idea of Hawke being an evil mastermind "mwahahahahahaha!" she needs an evil laugh

#8
Silfren
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 10:34

Silfren
  • Members
  • 4 748 messages
Seekers have the ability to discern truth from lies. You see this played out every time Cassandra calls Varric on something that either is an exaggeration or isn't true at all. So that pretty much rules out the argument that it's all a lie, or even the whole "plot holes are explained by Varric's not being a good storyteller/embellishing the good bits."

#9
Midnight Voyager
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 10:40

Midnight Voyager
  • Members
  • 134 messages
This is a bit like when someone told me that the characters of Wuthering Heights were SUPPOSED to be abhorrent. Why? Because the maid, who is telling the story, was in love with Heathcliff and thus jealous!

The problem is that it didn't make me go, "Oh, then I retroactively enjoyed the book more!" It made me go, "Why would the writer make me sit through this crap for this reason? If this is true, which I doubt, they are a jerk, and I hate it more in retrospect!"

Not the most one-to-one comparison here, but close. If it's true and we basically played a story that is a lie, it would irritate me almost literally to death. I am pretty sure that I would even become physically ill.

So I'm gonna go with "nah."

#10
Mike 9987
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 10:45

Mike 9987
  • Members
  • 2 097 messages
what if varric dreamed the whole experience and woke up moments after the game zoomed into the book in leliana's hands?

#11
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:14

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Silfren wrote...
Seekers have the ability to discern truth from lies. You see this played out every time Cassandra calls Varric on something that either is an exaggeration or isn't true at all.

I thought it takes Blood Magic to read minds in Thedas? Time and again we see how easily fooled any Templar is- I do not see Seekers could be any different.

And honestly, the few times of Varric for lying/exaggerating that Cassandra called on are so bloodly obvious- "You're strong and handsome, and so very smart!" Don't tell me you need to be a Seeker to catch that one!

#12
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:16

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Mike 9987 wrote...

what if varric dreamed the whole experience and woke up moments after the game zoomed into the book in leliana's hands?

Varric admitted that he's a liar. Cassandra and other characters accused him time and again of lying.

So far we have no information about Varric's dreaming. In fact, dreamers in Thedas go into the Fade in their dreams, while Dwarves can't enter the Fade without special rituals. I would go so far as to say Dwarves don't dream in general, until a loremaster corrects me.

#13
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:22

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Nephi_1111 wrote...
I highly doubt the Dev's intended people to see it this way, Varric is just a framing device, what we see in the game is most likely supposed to be canon.


Midnight Voyager wrote...
This is a bit like when someone told me that the characters of Wuthering Heights were SUPPOSED to be abhorrent. Why? Because the maid, who is telling the story, was in love with Heathcliff and thus jealous!

The problem is that it didn't make me go, "Oh, then I retroactively enjoyed the book more!" It made me go, "Why would the writer make me sit through this crap for this reason? If this is true, which I doubt, they are a jerk, and I hate it more in retrospect!"

Not the most one-to-one comparison here, but close. If it's true and we basically played a story that is a lie, it would irritate me almost literally to death. I am pretty sure that I would even become physically ill.

So I'm gonna go with "nah."

Literature and any other creative work are meant to be interpreted by the audience. While some audience might find certain interpretations irritatingly unacceptable, others may find them fascinating. Either way, no interpretation should be considered 'right' or 'wrong' or 'canon' until the authors themselves give a definitive verdict.

Personally, judging from the way BioWare presented Varric and Cassandra's dialogue, I highly doubt that we are 'supposed' to interpret the events of DA2 as undiminished truth. Cassandra may not be able to read minds, but she certainly is quite smart, and there should be reasons behind her initial doubts.

There is no reason to believe that Cassandra's initial stance (that Hawke is a scheming mastermind) is any less valid than Varric's stance. And frankly, most of the events in DA2 (even though they are narrated by Varric) can be interpreted either way, which I think is no coincidence.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 mai 2011 - 11:26 .

#14
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:24

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

berelinde wrote...

That's a lot of "What ifs."

Different aspects of a singular question, namely the true motive of Hawke.

Amagoi wrote...

Occam's razor. /thread

How is one interpretation simpler than the other?

For one thing, the 'official' interpretation that Varric is telling the truth throughout means that all the events in DA2 are a series of unfortunate coincidences. My interpretation (that Hawke has a clear motive and used the events around them to their advantage) is actually much simpler as it depends on fewer variables (one, instead of numerous coincidences).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

#15
_Aine_
Posté 02 mai 2011 - 11:44

_Aine_
  • Members
  • 1 861 messages
Varric, if not a liar, is a fantastic story teller. AND he has a completely captivated audience in Cassandra. Even if he was telling the truth 80% of the time, I would find embellishment and exaggeration of that truth the norm instead of the exception. And he may be telling the truth, but is it the *whole* truth? I could easily imagine him constructing a "convenient" tale out of carefully selected truths and omitting some other inconvenient ones :)

Just because it is the truth, doesn't mean it is necessarily the whole story.

The writers. They tricksy! Of course, it could be 100% truth, just to trick us too. THAT is how tricksy. lol ;)

Modifié par shantisands, 02 mai 2011 - 11:53 .

#16
Icy Magebane
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 12:21

Icy Magebane
  • Members
  • 7 317 messages
I think the OP sounds reasonable simply because the player's interpretation is the best way to determine what Hawke's motives truly are. The player is in control, after all... it's true that the game doesn't allow us to explore every option (like acting on the letter from "O" in Quentin's hideout), but there are more than enough dialogue options and choices to make Hawke as clever or dull-witted as the player would like. I doubt that Bioware would ever acknowledge anything like this, however. Meaning, you'll probably never see a story where Hawke spells out that he or she knew what was going on and planned accordingly, etc...

And Seekers don't have any special mind-reading or lie-detection abilities. They are normal humans. Cassandra stopping Varric's first exaggeration is most likely because there's no way Hawke was that strong before leaving Lothering... or maybe the default face didn't match Hawke's real (CC) face... hell, I don't know. But mind-reading is out of the question.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 03 mai 2011 - 12:22 .

#17
thesuperdarkone
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 12:24

thesuperdarkone
  • Members
  • 1 745 messages
But what if Varric is a rival? His rivalry shows that it's basically Varric utterly disliking Hawke:


#18
Fast Jimmy
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 12:44

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages
Its possible.

However a lot of the writing, while well done, has many plot holes in it. So I think trying to imagine hidden meanings, purpose or intent to the plot anymore than is on the surface is an effort in futility and would only be true if someone from Bioware reads this post and thinks it would be a good idea to retroactively go back and make this so.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

#19
ArawnNox
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 01:55

ArawnNox
  • Members
  • 785 messages
This is why I would have liked it if there was more of a back and forth discourse between Cassandra and Varric a the two verbally duel to reveal the truth of events. It worked brilliantly in "Hero". As it stands, we are only taken out of the narrative twice when the facts are questioned: Once in the opener and again during Varric's personal quest in Act 2. There's just not enough moments where you question the narrative and you take what was presented as truth.
More chances should have been taken with the unreliable narrator and the framed narrative.

#20
Kaiser Shepard
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 04:06

Kaiser Shepard
  • Members
  • 7 890 messages
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...

#21
Mallika Surana
Posté 03 mai 2011 - 11:08

Mallika Surana
  • Members
  • 49 messages
What if Varric constructed the whole story out of objects/names he spied in the interrogation room? DUN DUN DUN!

#22
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:30

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Mallika wrote...

What if Varric constructed the whole story out of objects/names he spied in the interrogation room? DUN DUN DUN!

Then I'd conclude that Varric is the avatar of the lead writer of Dragon Age (Mr Gaider). Actually, I'm pretty sure Varric is the avatar of some BioWare employee- he's just too good to be otherwise.

#23
expanding panic
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:32

expanding panic
  • Members
  • 365 messages
That would be one heck of a plot twist.

Modifié par expanding panic, 04 mai 2011 - 01:32 .

#24
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:32

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

shantisands wrote...
Varric, if not a liar, is a fantastic story teller. AND he has a completely captivated audience in Cassandra. Even if he was telling the truth 80% of the time, I would find embellishment and exaggeration of that truth the norm instead of the exception. And he may be telling the truth, but is it the *whole* truth? I could easily imagine him constructing a "convenient" tale out of carefully selected truths and omitting some other inconvenient ones :)

Couldn't have put it any better.

I suspect a top reason that Varric is such a likable character is because he's narrating the story- he's got to make himself look good!

#25
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 04 mai 2011 - 01:33

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

ArawnNox wrote...

This is why I would have liked it if there was more of a back and forth discourse between Cassandra and Varric a the two verbally duel to reveal the truth of events. It worked brilliantly in "Hero". As it stands, we are only taken out of the narrative twice when the facts are questioned: Once in the opener and again during Varric's personal quest in Act 2. There's just not enough moments where you question the narrative and you take what was presented as truth.
More chances should have been taken with the unreliable narrator and the framed narrative.

Agreed. Otherwise there would be too many Turian Councilors to dismiss my claims.

expanding panic wrote...

That would be one heck of a plot twist.

I don't know if I'd call it that. I'm not introducing any new information- I'm merely interpreting currently available information.

BioWare is telling the story of DA2 in an unusual way (framed narrative). Why can't we, as audience, interpret it in an unusual way (questioning the absolute honesty of the framed narrative)?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 04 mai 2011 - 01:37 .

Retourner dans Story, Campaign & Characters


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Dragon Age
  3. → Dragon Age II
  4. → Story, Campaign & Characters