36 réponses à ce sujet

[Thorne_underfoot]

to start off, this is not intended to be another flame thread.  I am sure there are enough of them.  And so please, if you are intending to flame, please post elsewhere.

The question I have is, is anyone else thinking that there has to be a reasonable solution to HiPs out there?  On the PW I play, I see most PvP builds go out of their way to include ShadowDancer or Assassin just so they can pop in and out.  It is almost a requirement just to survive. 

Now I get that Stealth types need something to compete, but it gets to be a real pain when I see Paladins with a dash of Shadow Dancer (http://nwn2db.com/bu...60479&version=1) into the mix just to be competative.  I mean come on...

Anyway, I have always thought that a solution would be to add a -20 on any Stealth roll that lasts 3 rounds of combat, followed by a regular roll.  This would effectively mean that you could HiPs, but you would be particularly poor at it unless you were a concerted stealther.  this has a real world application in that simply disapearing in the middle of a room is REALLY HARD, but can be done.  But if you have the time to plan and position, you are much more concealed. 

Anyone who simply took a few levels just to have the ability would be particularly poor at it.  You could even throw in an Epic feat (that required significant Stealth class levels to qualify for) that would mitigate the penalty if you wanted. 

But it would mean that your average rogue, if he planned ahead, would not be impacted.  Merely hide and then wait the requisite three rounds and no impact.  He/she could even HiPs, but at a reduced efficiency which could/would be off set by any stealth items such as boots of elven kind etc...

But honestly what I see today is you either have to have HiPs (95% of builds) or REALLY HIGH Spot (50-60% of builds) or be SOL and owned by the stealthers out there.  The above would at least limit HiPs to those characters who were truely the Kings of stealth instead of, as it is now, anyone who is anyone who wants to play in a PvP world (and not even just those who PvP, but just survival).

Anyway, thoughts?

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Haven't really looked into it much. I'm surprised that the rules would allow someone in plate to use a skill like HiPs. Seems like it should be restricted to light armor.

I agree that it seems silly to me to have people dipping into one class. But people are known to be silly.

[M. Rieder]

Perhaps more stringent requirements to gain the feat would be appropriate? If I recall correctly, you get it after 2 levels of shadowdancer? I also think that Kaldor's suggestion that heavy armor make the feat unuseable would go a long way to reducing its use.

[I_Raps]

How about a success roll based on your class Level?

[Thorne_underfoot]

It's actually 1 level of SD. The server I play on requires an additional 19 DEX to get SD, but it is still more prevalent than any other single class or ability short of generics like "fighting" or "Casting". And yes, people do it in full plate.

And what gets me is it is more or less a free infinite use Invisibility.

anyway, didn't mean this to be a rant or flame. Thanks for the input.

[kevL]

even in SP i find it fairly ... trying not to say 'unbalancing' ... inharmonious. As soon as my rogue found out he could take a level of SD and get HiPs it was (indeed) too tempting to refuse. I like the idea of waiting a few rounds, or attack at a penalty (sorta -20 / -10 / -5 / normal) and even disallowing classes like Rogue or Assassin to be Good aligned, and I even feel that full plate should hack apart one's Reflex save .. but, unless i've had too much coffee today, it doesn't. Ah well

[MasterChanger]

HiPS, as present in base NWN2, is indeed cheese not smelt this side of the Cleric/Bard/RDD. Various PWs make it less of a no-brainer in various ways: for example, requiring a multi-level investment in Shadow Dancer (say, 5).

HiPS itself is a hardcoded feat--as is pretty much everything to do with stealth and detection, unfortunately. I once created a custom feat to add a cooldown to HiPS (HiPS itself has no cooldown, but stealth mode does). What I did was make HiPS not earnable by players. Then I created a feat with a cooldown that temporarily adds HiPS as a bonus feat (or a temporary item property, which is harder to exploit) and immediately put the player into stealth mode. It worked in every test that I ran.

I'd be willing to share the code, but most scripters would not have trouble replicating such functionality. It's all a question of what the particular PW wants to do to alleviate the situation you describe.

[Spellfizzle]

The best way imo to solve Hips problems is just by simply increasing the cooldown by 6 seconds, this way it doesn't cripple the class but allows the opposition to get in a few more attacks before the hipster goes back into hips.

[kevL]

another Idea : would it be feasible to slow a character's movement speed down to 10% ?

heh 8^)

[MasterChanger]

Spellfizzle wrote...

The best way imo to solve Hips problems is just by simply increasing the cooldown by 6 seconds, this way it doesn't cripple the class but allows the opposition to get in a few more attacks before the hipster goes back into hips.

Have you determined another method to do this other than what I described above?

[Arkalezth]

The problem is that Rogues without Feint need it in order to do damage (and Feint needs a heavy investment in Bluff enhancing feats to work reliably). So you could add some requirements for SD, such as 2d6 Sneak Attack, or high DEX, or something like that.

I_Raps' suggestion sounds good, if it can be done.

Also, I have to ask: if you don't like that PW, why don't you play elsewhere?

[manageri]

MasterChanger's idea sounds awesome, I'd give it a one minute cooldown or so. I can't stand HiPS (and I only play single player), it's possibly the most retardedly broken thing in the game.

[Thorne_underfoot]

I totally agree that stealth types need it. My problem is that EVERYONE seems to grab it. And rightfully so. Who wouldn't want free action, unlimited use Invisibility?

And what makes it even worse is it unbalances Stealth as a whole. In the PW I play, most monsters have a HEAVY investment in Spot/Listen just to be able to off set HiPsters. The Devs have correctly identified it as a problem, but their solution (crank up detection to hideously unreasonable levels for monsters) pretty much invalidates Stealth as a whole. And there is absolutely no reason what so ever for a casual stealther to invest points as they will never hit high enough scores to sneak past even casual monsters.

About the cool down thing, I am concerned that it would do nothing more than prolong combats. Attack, Stealth, Wait for cool down, attack. Rinse, lather, repeat... And it smacks a bit of the whole DA method of doing things. Which isn't inherently a bad thing, but...

Ultimately it would be the best if a solution were devised that would keep stealth a good ability, allow "Concerted" Hipsters to still use the ability (even to the point of Epic characters being able to HiP at will provided they have paid their dues) and not provide a single dip into a class that is so enticing that every build is now bent towards grabbing that skill just to survive.  In other words, Keep HiPs, but re-work it so that it is useful for a select group of characters, not a grab all for anyone who wants to survive.

Modifié par Thorne_underfoot, 03 mai 2011 - 03:59 .

[Arkalezth]

I don't think a long cooldown is a good idea. Stealth Rogues would either attack once, and then run away until the cooldown is over, or attack for tiny amounts of damage while waiting for it. A 12 seconds cooldown could probably work, but one minute is too much.

That's why I suggested more (class based) prerequisites. It's not perfect, but it could solve your problem somewhat (everyone getting it). It would still be easier to get by Rogues, but other character types would have to think if it's worth the investment.

Reducing the number of classes per character to 2 or 3 would be a similar workaround, but I don't know if that can be done.

[Thorne_underfoot]

Arkalezth wrote...

The problem is that Rogues without Feint need it in order to do damage (and Feint needs a heavy investment in Bluff enhancing feats to work reliably). So you could add some requirements for SD, such as 2d6 Sneak Attack, or high DEX, or something like that.

I_Raps' suggestion sounds good, if it can be done.

Also, I have to ask: if you don't like that PW, why don't you play elsewhere?

The PW I play on does have a 19 dex req for SD.  But you can still get HiPs with Ranger or Assassin which are not likewise limited.  And instead of limiting those classes similarly and invalidating a whole host of other Ranger and Assassin concept types, the limitation to the ability itself would seem more the solution.  Why limit (wreck) an entire class when it is only one ability that is the offending issue?

And I do like the world.  I just don't like the trend towards everyone becoming HiPsters.  And I don't think it is merely the world I play on that sees the trend.  Several others I have tried out have similar trends.

Modifié par Thorne_underfoot, 03 mai 2011 - 04:05 .

[Arkalezth]

SD grants HiPS at level 1, Ranger needs 17 levels, and only works outdoors. It's a much heavier investment. Assassin needs 8 levels and evil alignment, but it could have a DEX requirement or something too.

19 DEX is already a heavy investment, the build you linked would not work in your PW, it doesn't have 19 DEX. Add a sneak attack requirement, and it would have to drop one of its classes entirely, on top of that. It'd have to be a completely different build if it wants HiPS.

[Thorne_underfoot]

Again, why penalize the class when it is the ability that is the issue? Your solution works, as far as it goes. But as I said, a huge community in the world I play in have one of those three classes just to qualify. They build around the investments. So there are a HUGE number of Assassins wandering around, not because they want the character concept, but because they want HiPs.

Also, there is the other factor I mentioned. The fact that, to off set the extremely high use/value of the ability, most monsters have to have HIGH Spot/Listen, thus invalidating any casual Stealth abilities. Simply slapping a limitation on one (or all three) class that has HiPs doesn't seem to stop the proliferation (manifestly). Nor should it as the classes themselves are not to blame. The ability is, as originally designed, unbalancing.

Modifié par Thorne_underfoot, 03 mai 2011 - 05:07 .

[MasterChanger]

As long as you allow players to have the HiPS feat (even if it's class-specific) you can't alter it in any way. My description of using a different feat to give HiPS implicitly for a limited time could be used to change the circumstances surrounding HiPS in any of the various ways nwscript allows us.

For example, when you use the custom feat, your character gets HiPS as a temporary bonus feat, is immediately put into stealth mode, but also has a -15 penalty to Hide and Move Silently for 6 (or 12, or whatever) seconds.

I've often wished that we had access to the stealth-vs-detection code for many different applications, but we don't. Playing with this bonus feat is one way to create handles for the scripters to affect this situtation indirectly.

[Arkalezth]

But if the ability can't be changed, you'll have to think of something else. My reasoning is that, if the requisites are harder to accomplish, not everyone will have HiPS. If you want, say, Epic Divine Might, you can't have HiPS, so you have to decide between the two. If you want a sky-high DC for your Wizard , maybe you'll have to pass on HiPS, too. The feat will still be overpowered, but unless everyone plays a high DEX Rogue, the amount of characters with it should be reduced.

Since the feat can't be altered, and I don't know much about that kind of things, I just thought of that alternative "solution". As I said, it's nowhere near perfect, but it's something.

And about monsters with high Spot/Listen...that should be discussed with whoever runs the PW. It also seems a bit contradictory, you say HiPS is overpowered and everyone has it, but enemies shouldn't be able to detect you so easily. Wouldn't it be even more overpowered then?

[Arkalezth]

MasterChanger wrote...

For example, when you use the custom feat, your character gets HiPS as a temporary bonus feat, is immediately put into stealth mode, but also has a -15 penalty to Hide and Move Silently for 6 (or 12, or whatever) seconds.

That wouldn't solve much, some warrior types use HiPS with full plate and shield (that's like -10 Hide/MS). You wouldn't be able to move around stealthed, but if I'm not mistaken, you could still attack from HiPS with 0 stealth.

[MasterChanger]

Arkalezth wrote...

MasterChanger wrote...

For example, when you use the custom feat, your character gets HiPS as a temporary bonus feat, is immediately put into stealth mode, but also has a -15 penalty to Hide and Move Silently for 6 (or 12, or whatever) seconds.

That wouldn't solve much, some warrior types use HiPS with full plate and shield (that's like -10 Hide/MS). You wouldn't be able to move around stealthed, but if I'm not mistaken, you could still attack from HiPS with 0 stealth.

That's true, and it's because of the delay in detection cycles. If you wait long enough in stealth mode with low stealth skills, you will eventually be detected. But if you HiPS then attack right away, the opponent will not have had time to detect you.

If that's the problem then I can throw another idea into the mix: in this custom situation, when you use the custom feat, you go into stealth mode and (using scripting) are prevented from taking any action for a certain number of seconds, say 3 or 6. (This would be based on determining exactly how frequent detection cycles are.) This would mean that spamming HiPS with no stealth skills would become less of an exploit.

[Thorne_underfoot]

Hadn't even considered spamming, but I am guessing that is an exploit as well. One that a cool down timer would help.

In any event, the custom feat sounds like a good thing. And with a -15 on top of any other negatives, that might just be what I was proposing. Anyway, it is all speculation as I would never be able to sell it to the DEVs. They have their own legacy characters that they play and would never give up power/abilities.

[NWN DM]

Sneaky sneaky....

[Kaldor Silverwand]

My preference would be to just limit it by armor type. Hiding in plain sight wearing plate mail is absurd. Backstabbing used to be limited to certain small weapons (is it still?), so there is a precedent for restrictions like this. For the people role-playing rangers or assassins or shadowdancers it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't be trouncing about in plate mail anyway.

Maybe one way to implement this would be to check when a player activates the Hide in Plain Sight and if they are wearing heavy or medium armor you force unequip their armor. Let 'em fight naked and see how they like it. Not sure if there is a way to know when someone has activated HiPS though.

Regards

[Arkalezth]

Instead of unequipping the armor, could stealth be deactivated, as Ranger's combat feats in medium/heavy armor?

But anyway, if 19 DEX is needed, heavy armor isn't better than medium or light.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 03 mai 2011 - 10:52 .