96 réponses à ce sujet

[spoe71]

patchwork zombie? eww. That's a tad gruesome. Funny though. I guess at least she wouldn't have to worry about catching cold.

[frustratemyself]

spoe71 wrote...

patchwork zombie? eww. That's a tad gruesome. Funny though. I guess at least she wouldn't have to worry about catching cold.

Just don't leave her too close to the fire place, it could get messy.

[Brockololly]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Wow... whoever came up with that story about cut content that was playtested is a real scamp. They had me believing that 90% of playtesters reloaded the game to the point where they could save Leandra, etc... a very long and intricate rumor, that apparently had no substance behind it at all!

Well, anyway, these ideas are a lot worse than what really happened... the last two anyway. Sacrificing a follower, not so much, although that could have easily derailed the entire storyline, so I can see why that wasn't an option. Still, nobody came up with the idea to incorporate some kind of demonic pact? Or maybe just... you know, arrive before she was beheaded and turned into a monster?

I guess the people at Bioware are going to do whatever they want, but if you listen to feedback at all, I just want to voice my opinion that inevitable tragedies get old when you want to play the game more than a few times. I never look forward to this quest, and skip through all the dialogue as quickly as possible. It's just a stain on an otherwise decent game.

Gaider talked a bit more about the option to save Leandra in this thread- I think its more that people would feel they're "doing it wrong" if an option to save Leandra was there and they didn't do it, not unlike Redcliffe with Connor.

Then again, I don't have a problem with something like Redcliffe and Connor, but I see where BioWare is coming from in that they don't necessarily want possible solutions to a quest to be demarcated as "#1= terrible ending, #2 Grim/Dark ending, #3= Super Horrible ending, #4= Super Awesome Happy Sunshine and Puppies Ending!" Cause obviously once people know what the solutions are, they're likely going to take the "best" ending almost every time.

Of course, thats where I think DA2 missed the boat big time with the framed narrative and employing any meaningful delayed consequences. So maybe a Option #4=Super Awesome Happy Sunshine and Puppies Ending to a quest in Act 2 could come back and bite you in the ass in some sort of logical, non Gotcha! moment sort of way in Act 3. Just as the only way to get a "Happy" ending to a later quest in Act 3 may be by doing something questionable early on in Act 2.


But yes, inevitable tragedies do get boring, and quite frankly, I question how well they work in an RPG thats supposed to be about player agency and choice, given that a big element of any tragedy is having things go out of control. Even this quest can sort of fall flat if your Hawke caught on to the whole 'white lillies serial killer /mom conveniently being alone and out and about' thing before you were really able to do anything about it, at which point when you get to the inevitable tragic moment, its not so much being caught up by the tragedy, but more likely getting pissed at the game for funneling you down one path and one path only.

[Satyricon331]

Giltspur wrote...
It's cool seeing that you guys
a) didn't want to provide an easy, Conor-style way out
and
entertained ideas this brutal
and
c) were willing to talk about it on the forums.

This, especially ©.

I had read the rumor others have mentioned about playtesting, and it's interesting to know.

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...
Just as the only way to get a "Happy" ending to a later quest in Act 3 may be by doing something questionable early on in Act 2. 

Eh, which quest are you referring to? My mind is drawing a blank....

I like your "saving Leandra comes back to bite you in the ass" idea, although it would have to be something pretty big for it to not be considered the "easy way out". Something on the Chantry bombing level.

[AlexXIV]

So the writers could not come up with a satisfying way to do it, so they came up with an even more unsatisfying. That's probably what the whole game suffers from, not just this quest.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 mai 2011 - 01:04 .

[Amagoi]

Brockololly wrote...

But yes, inevitable tragedies do get boring, and quite frankly, I question how well they work in an RPG thats supposed to be about player agency and choice, given that a big element of any tragedy is having things go out of control. Even this quest can sort of fall flat if your Hawke caught on to the whole 'white lillies serial killer /mom conveniently being alone and out and about' thing before you were really able to do anything about it, at which point when you get to the inevitable tragic moment, its not so much being caught up by the tragedy, but more likely getting pissed at the game for funneling you down one path and one path only.

Pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about it. It's not really a tragic moment. It's more of a smack in the face for the player. It doesn't have much real impact. To really make Leandra's death tragic, make it part of a chain of events. Go Greek on it and have something great and good that Hawke did in Act 1 eventually lead to Leandra's death.

First time I played through the quest it did have some affect, but overall it was handled pretty poorly. A dialogue with Gamlen, LI, and Aveline and bam. Story wrapped up. I can only imagine how painful All That Remains must get after multiple playthroughs. It's like seeing a bear trap that you're forced to walk into.

[frustratemyself]

Amagoi wrote...

I can only imagine how painful All That Remains must get after multiple playthroughs. It's like seeing a bear trap that you're forced to walk into.

It does get a bit that way. You just skip through it as quick as possible & hope you don't get that cringe worthy line from Anders about finding more than a bag of bones when you enter the warehouse.

It also seemed kind of vulger to me that you are running around the warehouse looting crates etc while you are supposedly in a panic trying to find your kidnapped mother who may be hurt or dead.
Anyone else have that reaction?

[Zjarcal]

frustratemyself wrote...
It also seemed kind of vulger to me that you are running around the warehouse looting crates etc while you are supposedly in a panic trying to find your kidnapped mother who may be hurt or dead.
Anyone else have that reaction?

Totally.

And if I'm correct there's a gift for a companion in one of the crates so it's not really ideal to just avoid them... 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
And if I'm correct there's a gift for a companion in one of the crates so it's not really ideal to just avoid them... 

"Oh hi, I found this when I was...eh rushing to save my mother. Despite the circumstances, I thought of you the instant I saw it"

I don't know if that can be romantic, but I'd be freaked out personaly.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
And if I'm correct there's a gift for a companion in one of the crates so it's not really ideal to just avoid them... 

"Oh hi, I found this when I was...eh rushing to save my mother. Despite the circumstances, I thought of you the instant I saw it"

I don't know if that can be romantic, but I'd be freaked out personaly.

Actually now that I look in the wiki I can't find any gift listed as showing up during that quest. But I do remember that there was an important item or something else in one of the crates in the room where you find Orsino's letter.

Which again, would make avoiding the crates a non ideal scenario, despite how wrong it feels.

[Abispa]

You find your family shield, if I remember right. Not bad, though there are better available. I guess it makes sense that someone obsessed with your mother might have stolen it, but it does seem odd to be looting while looking for mom.

Of course, being able to loot at any time, even in people's homes WHILE THEY'RE IN THE ROOM has been a VG RPG staple for ages. I love finding credit chits in crates in the middle of firefights in ME2, too.

[Brockololly]

Zjarcal wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Just as the only way to get a "Happy" ending to a later quest in Act 3 may be by doing something questionable early on in Act 2. 

Eh, which quest are you referring to? My mind is drawing a blank....

Oh, I was just thinking for a hypothetical quest, not anything I remembered from DA2.

Amagoi wrote...
Pretty much sums up exactly how I feel  about it. It's not really a tragic moment. It's more of a smack in the
face for the player. It doesn't have much real impact. To really make  Leandra's death tragic, make it part of a chain of events. Go Greek on  it and have something great and good that Hawke did in Act 1 eventually  lead to Leandra's death.

Yeah, even on my first time through, I had a feeling something bad would happen to Leandra as soon as you connect the dots with Bethany/Carver checking out, moving to Hightown so she's all on her own with a serial killer on the loose. Leandra's death just felt too scripted, in the sense that it just happens, which is fine, but like you said, could have been handled better.

I mean, as soon as Bodhan mentioned the lilies arriving for Leandra, you're stuck with automaton Hawke having to stand there like a mannequin explaining how a serial killer gives victims lilies before killing the victim. At which point I was just thinking "GOGOGOGOGO! Shut up Hawke and go save your mama!" But nope, you're stuck having Hawke drone on exposition in case you fell asleep earlier. I hate that.

frustratemyself wrote...
It also seemed kind of vulger to me that you are running around the warehouse looting crates etc while you are  supposedly in a panic trying to find your kidnapped mother who may be  hurt or dead.  Anyone else have that reaction?

YES.

I absolutely hated having to trudge through the wave combat with random demons when you're supposed to be hot on the trail to find your mom. The combat in the lead up to finding your zombie mom totally sucked away much of any tension that was building as you followed the blood spots and worked your way into Quentin's lair.

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[frustratemyself]

Abispa wrote...

Of course, being able to loot at any time, even in people's homes WHILE THEY'RE IN THE ROOM has been a VG RPG staple for ages. I love finding credit chits in crates in the middle of firefights in ME2, too.

I liked it in Oblivion where they would go off their brain & attack you for stealing.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Cape Mario wrote...

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

So it was never implimented at any level? That's goes against what I had picked up around the forums. But it probably was just misinformation. Do you, perhaps, remember any of the 'heavy costs' that were suggested? I only ask because I find the things left out of games (either being removed during development or merely considered but never included) very interesting. If you don't, that's fine, too.

Thank you for your time.

Suggestions included:

• Sacrifice a follower. Your romance, if you had one. Or whoever had the most frienship.
• Make the player become a serial killer. You'd have to murder a number of innocent and sympathetic characters in order to restore your mother to life.
• Let Merrill sustain the spell (possibly costing her attribute points) and keep Leandra in her horrible patchwork zombie state in a back room of your mansion.

Those three ideas are better than anything I've seen in this game so far.

[Maria Caliban]

AlexXIV wrote...

So the writers could not come up with a satisfying way to do it, so they came up with an even more unsatisfying. That's probably what the whole game suffers from, not just this quest.

All That Remains is satisfying.

It's just not happy or fun.

[Amagoi]

Abispa wrote...

Of course, being able to loot at any time, even in people's homes WHILE THEY'RE IN THE ROOM has been a VG RPG staple for ages. I love finding credit chits in crates in the middle of firefights in ME2, too.

It's just not an RPG without that. My personal favorite style is Dragon Quest, where you can go into people's homes and throw their jars around and generally wreck the place, take their money and strut out the door without anyone saying a thing.

Brockololly wrote...

YES.

I absolutely hated having
to trudge through the wave combat with random demons when you're
supposed to be hot on the trail to find your mom. The combat in the lead
up to finding your zombie mom totally sucked away much of any tension
that was building as you followed the blood spots and worked your way
into Quentin's lair.

That's more a comment on the problem with waved combat. It kills the drama of a quest or scene very quickly. Especially when the game bugs up and you have to run around the area to get two bandits/demons/mages to jump out of a wall so you can smash them.

I'm sure wave combat can be a lot better with more randomization mixed into it, but I don't think it can ever really work well with a story like this where Hawke is supposed to be frantic.

[Brockololly]

Amagoi wrote...
That's more a comment on the problem with waved combat. It kills the drama of a quest or scene very quickly. Especially when the game bugs up and you have to run around the area to get two bandits/demons/mages to jump out of a wall so you can smash them.

I'm sure wave combat can be a lot better with more randomization mixed into it, but I don't think it can ever really work well with a story like this where Hawke is supposed to be frantic.

Yeah, true- I 'd think even beyond the combat though, in a sequence like that where the player/Hawke is supposed to be in a hurry, I dare say they should make things fairly linear and more scripted than usual to keep up the tension as opposed to having the regular looting/wave combat mechanics which sucks the tension out of the scene.

Or even when you play that combat at the endwith Quentin and get the cutscene with Leandra dying...only to have the combat music stuck on as you have your big dramatic death scene:pinched:

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...
Or even when you play that combat at the endwith Quentin and get the cutscene with Leandra dying...only to have the combat music stuck on as you have your big dramatic death scene:pinched:

That did happen to me once.... talk about a mood killer. 

[Maria Caliban]

Zjarcal wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Or even when you play that combat at the endwith Quentin and get the cutscene with Leandra dying...only to have the combat music stuck on as you have your big dramatic death scene:pinched:

That did happen to me once.... talk about a mood killer. 

That's happened to be every time. I wonder what triggers it?

[Foolsfolly]

I'm glad that the music thing never happened to me.

[TheBlackBaron]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Suggestions included:

• Sacrifice a follower. Your romance, if you had one. Or whoever had the most frienship.
• Make the player become a serial killer. You'd have to murder a number of innocent and sympathetic characters in order to restore your mother to life.
• Let Merrill sustain the spell (possibly costing her attribute points) and keep Leandra in her horrible patchwork zombie state in a back room of your mansion.

Jesus christ. I mean, choices are nice and all and I think it would have been a good idea to implement some of thse, but there's no way I'd be taking any of them. 

[Big I]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Suggestions included:

• Sacrifice a follower. Your romance, if you had one. Or whoever had the most frienship.
• Make the player become a serial killer. You'd have to murder a number of innocent and sympathetic characters in order to restore your mother to life.
• Let Merrill sustain the spell (possibly costing her attribute points) and keep Leandra in her horrible patchwork zombie state in a back room of your mansion

Those choices are amazing. As it is this quest meant absolutely nothing to me, but being given choices like this would have certainly changed that, especially if you had to choose between them i.e. become a serial killer to save Leandra OR keep patchwork zombie Leandra around.


I'd have chosen the patchwork zombie Leandra option.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 04 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[TheBlackBaron]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Suggestions included:

• Sacrifice a follower. Your romance, if you had one. Or whoever had the most frienship.
• Make the player become a serial killer. You'd have to murder a number of innocent and sympathetic characters in order to restore your mother to life.
• Let Merrill sustain the spell (possibly costing her attribute points) and keep Leandra in her horrible patchwork zombie state in a back room of your mansion

Those choices are amazing. As it is this quest meant absolutely nothing to me, but being given choices like this would have certainly changed that, especially if you had to choose between them i.e. become a serial killer to save Leandra OR keep patchwork zombie Leandra around.


I'd have chosen the patchwork zombie Leandra option.

Then people would complain about being railroaded and not having the option to simple let her die.