82 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

Can't say I had much use for Cryo Ammo, but Cryo Blast is a great finisher.

If I have it, I use it a lot.

I like using Area Overload to remove the shields of a bunch of enemies, followed up by a Full Cryo Blast. Then I just shatter them with guns.

[Clonedzero]

ive heard lots of talk on this forum about having squad cryo ammo and inferno ammo on a vanguard, but that seems like an awful lot of points to waste in ammo powers.

personally ive never used it much. i think i spent one point in it and tried it out for a mission and saw it wasnt very useful. maybe i was using it wrong, but it gets a big fat "meh" from me.

fire ammo is always the better choice.

[Ahglock]

Clonedzero wrote...

ive heard lots of talk on this forum about having squad cryo ammo and inferno ammo on a vanguard, but that seems like an awful lot of points to waste in ammo powers.

personally ive never used it much. i think i spent one point in it and tried it out for a mission and saw it wasnt very useful. maybe i was using it wrong, but it gets a big fat "meh" from me.

fire ammo is always the better choice.

Depends on how you play your vanguard.  The charge spam vanguard wont be using his other powers so squad cryo is an awesome power.  You set it up at the begining of the level, switch to inferno ammo and since you wont be using any powers other than charge not putting points into pull/shockwave does not effect you.  

As a squad ammo it is decent.  I think the ammo powers suck overall, but while it rarely helps it has saved me on occasion.  A guy getting frozen right before he kills you is a nice thing to see.  

[Nashiktal]

Cryo ammo by itself isn't that great.

However Squad ammo evolution turns the entire battlefield into one big art gallery with smash-able statues. Its especially useful for the squadmates who have no/lesser ammo powers, and allows you to keep inferno.

[lolwut666]

I never bother with Cryo Ammo, not even the Squad evolution.

I'd rather have Pull for the Vanguard, and the Soldier also has better stuff to spend points on.

[Waltzingbear]

The group cryo is nice and any target with a red bar will freeze. Would you really get any added value from improved Pull or Shockwave?

Geth won't panic from Incendiary.

It isn't great but it isn't useless either; there's nothing else to say more than that.

[lolwut666]

I prefer Pull for the Warp bombs, and enemies caught by Pull are incapacitated just like frozen ones.

[Waltzingbear]

Yes because obviously you can't have both. I guess we're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

You won't have enough points for Pull with maxed Cryo only if you max out your bonus ability. If you don't then you can have both Squad Cryo and Pull.

Fortunately the option is not which one you prefer, Cryo Ammo or Pull, but rather would investing more points beyond the acquisition of Pull actually give you anything.

[lolwut666]

Maxing both Pull and Cryo Ammo hurts my build in other areas.

[Bozorgmehr]

lightsnow13 wrote...

 I have never found a use for cryo ammo. I'd much rather have incendiary. Otherwise I don't even use ammo powers that often (depending if I'm adept or soldier, obviously if I'm soldier I do). I just want to know why they would include cryo ammo when it has no + damage benefits. Does it work often? And Cryo blast -- is it worth it as well? I'd rather have incinerate. Personally I feel cryo to be one of the most useless abilities because you have to get through all the defence. Maybe someone could point it out to me how its not useless? -- no sarcasm. 

Ammo powers don't give any significant damage boost, basically ammo is close to being useless except for the CC effects. Inferno Ammo is great because it can make nearby enemies (with protection) do the fire dance; Cryo Ammo is awesome for your squadies and highly effective when slapped on the Viper, Mattock, HPs, and the (best of the best ammo power weapon) Scimitar (Katana a little behind).

Obviously it matters how you play or what guns you're using. Cryo Ammo is worthless when you're using OSOK weapons like the Claymore and Widow - there's no need to freeze an already death enemy But when using weapons which require multiple shots to kill enemies, Cryo Ammo is absolutely amazing - best ammo power in ME2!

P.S. Remember shotguns shoot 8 pellets, all pellets make their own separate (ammo) call, which means that when you use the Scimitar and shoot an enemy with his/her shields up; and the shot takes down the entire shield AND some of the targets health (very easy with Scimitar due to it's 100% damage bonus versus shields and barriers) > will freeze the target. One shot = frozen enemy who can't fight back and is highly susceptible to further damage and shattering.

By far my favorite ammo power in ME2; freeze the lot FTW

[nranola]

It would also have to depend on your play style. If you're like me and prefer to shoot a lot more than using powers, then Cryo Ammo helps tons - more so if you upgrade it to Squad.

Modifié par nranola, 03 mai 2011 - 09:26 .

[Waltzingbear]

lolwut666 wrote...

Maxing both Pull and Cryo Ammo hurts my build in other areas.

Sir I humbly surrender you win.

*he said and forced a poker into his frontal lobe*

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 03 mai 2011 - 09:19 .

[termokanden]

Ammo is close to being useless except for CC effects? How? I've seen calculations saying that overall it's just 20% or 30% more damage and therefore it's not worth it. I never understood that, because that's a big damage boost and could be the difference between killing something or not. Like I've said before, it certainly makes a difference for sniping. But I think in general a 20% damage buff is nothing to sneeze at.

[lolwut666]

I think ammo makes a big difference.

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

Ammo is close to being useless except for CC effects? How? I've seen calculations saying that overall it's just 20% or 30% more damage and therefore it's not worth it. I never understood that, because that's a big damage boost and could be the difference between killing something or not. Like I've said before, it certainly makes a difference for sniping. But I think in general a 20% damage buff is nothing to sneeze at.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. What really matters (to me) is how they affect gameplay. A 20-30% damage increase, which only counts in specific circumstances, is usually not enough to make any difference - if the exact same number of shots are needed to kill target.

The extra damage you get from ammo is only effective if it means the difference between OSOK or not. But the only two weapons who can do that (Insanity NG+) are the Widow and Claymore. Both weapons don't need ammo powers to accomplish this, the Claymore can one-shot mooks (lvl 30) with two SG upgrades - for example; and even with (the appropriate) ammo power equipped, it still requires the same number of shots to kill elites and bosses.

It's same thing as with Sentinel's Power Armor. The extra power damage sounds nice, but it doesn't really improve what powers can do. With and without power damage Warp can strip normal enemies' armor and barriers; the stronger enemies cannot be insta-stripped regardless the extra power damage. Warp cannot one-shot enemies who're down to health, it always takes (more than) two Warp bombs to kill elites etc.

Unfortunately - and I hope this changes in ME3 - extra power- and ammo damage don't have any major impact on gameplay (bonus is too small). Obviously extra damage isn't a bad thing, but when it doesn't reduce the number of shots or powers needed to get the job done they're of little value in my book.

[termokanden]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Numbers don't tell the whole story. What really matters (to me) is how they affect gameplay. A 20-30% damage increase, which only counts in specific circumstances, is usually not enough to make any difference - if the exact same number of shots are needed to kill target.

Let's use my infiltrator as an example. I have Disruptor and Warp ammo. On Collector missions, Warp damages all of their possible defenses. Specific circumstances maybe, but they are quite common. In the same way, almost all geth have only health and shields, and Disruptor works against both.

So there I think 20-30% more damage is quite useful, not just for OSOKing or not. I've also made this statement before, but there is a point in the game where ammo powers are the difference between being able to OSOK without Cloak or not. I haven't done extensive testing to see for how many levels/upgrades this is true though.

But in general, I'm pretty convinced a 20-30% damage buff is quite helpful. I've often been distracted/run out of ammo in a clip and left an enemy at a little bit of health. Even a smaller damage buff would have meant the enemy was dead and would stop firing at me.

A lot of this doesn't make so much sense if you're playing a vanguard and you need the same amount of shots to kill someone with or without ammo, or if you are playing an adept and just need to remove defenses. But say you're trying to actually kill someone with a rapid fire weapon.

Unfortunately - and I hope this changes in ME3 - extra power- and ammo damage don't have any major impact on gameplay (bonus is too small). Obviously extra damage isn't a bad thing, but when it doesn't reduce the number of shots or powers needed to get the job done they're of little value in my book.

I agree that it should make a clearer difference. But I can't believe a 20-30% damage difference wouldn't change the number of say Predator/SMG shots it needs to kill someone. Perhaps you are thinking in terms of specific classes and a specific playstyle?

But what they really should change is how damage buffs are represented ingame. We only know because of the mechanics thread and because of testing and such. It's not transparent to the user. Something that "increases damage by 20%" sometimes does exactly what it says, or it increases base damage by 20%. These things should be made absolutely clear.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 11:10 .

[marksman100]

Cryo ammo is awesome with the Mattock/Viper/pistols on Husks.

[lolwut666]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

ive heard lots of talk on this forum about having squad cryo ammo and inferno ammo on a vanguard, but that seems like an awful lot of points to waste in ammo powers.

personally ive never used it much. i think i spent one point in it and tried it out for a mission and saw it wasnt very useful. maybe i was using it wrong, but it gets a big fat "meh" from me.

fire ammo is always the better choice.

Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno Ammo)
Cryo Ammo - 10 Points (Squad Cryo Ammo)
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy Charge)
Shockwave - 1 Point
Pull - 0 Points
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam/Stasis/Reave/Whatever - 10 Points  (Whichever evolution you like best)

Is a very potent build. Apply Squad Cryo Ammo on your Squadmates and override your own weapons with Inferno Ammo and you decrease the enemy threat a noticable deal depending on what Squadmates and Weapon loadout you take (this build with Zaeed and Thane with Incisor SR and +50% Damage Passive Build is devastating!) and might leave you charging people with their friends freezing left and right.

This build of course favours a very aggressive playstyle as there is little distance ability to chose from, but the freezing saved my Vanguards glorious arse more than a few times.

This is notably no distance comabt build in in said one, Cryo Ammo can be forsaken for other powers. And Cryo own its own is not really a good ability for the player in contrast to other powers that can be available.

I could never use that build because I just love making a bunch of mooks levitate once in a while.

But it sounds good in theory.

[termokanden]

I enjoy using that build personally, although I put 1 point in Pull rather than Shockwave as it at least serves the purpose of one-shotting a husks with a short cooldownn. Not that you really need that when you have Squad Cryo.

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

I agree that it should make a clearer difference. But I can't believe a 20-30% damage difference wouldn't change the number of say Predator/SMG shots it needs to kill someone. Perhaps you are thinking in terms of specific classes and a specific playstyle?

The Predator and SMG are secundary weapons, at least to me. You're right that the added damage will safe a shot or two using those weapons, but I always use either SG, AR or SR to be my primary weapon (90-100% time spend in combat). Claymore and Widow don't need more damage, I never use the Mantis or Incisor, the Katana and Evi cannot one-shot enemies throughout the game (melee follow up(s) are needed) and using the Viper, Mattock or Vindicator doesn't reduce the number of shots to either strip or kill enemies.

But what they really should change is how damage buffs are represented ingame. We only know because of the mechanics thread and because of testing and such. It's not transparent to the user. Something that "increases damage by 20%" sometimes does exactly what it says, or it increases base damage by 20%. These things should be made absolutely clear.

Indeed, it's not clear in-game how ammo affects damage. It sounds a lot better than it really is. It is, however, never a bad thing to have added damage but investing 10 skillpoints in an ability that has little impact on gameplay and performance is crappy imo.

The OP asked wether or not Cryo Ammo is crap; my answer is NO, Cryo Ammo is great because of the freezing effect. The description doesn't mention extra damage which might influence people who do not know how ammo power damage works exactly. The 100% damage bonus against frozen enemies will affect how many shots are needed to bring down (powerful) enemies (when they're frozen), an effect that can easily compete with the extra damage received though other ammo power such as AP or Warp Ammo.

My point is that the main strength of ammo powers are not the added damage, but the secundary effects - burn, overheat and freeze.

[termokanden]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Predator and SMG are secundary weapons, at least to me. You're right that the added damage will safe a shot or two using those weapons, but I always use either SG, AR or SR to be my primary weapon (90-100% time spend in combat). Claymore and Widow don't need more damage, I never use the Mantis or Incisor, the Katana and Evi cannot one-shot enemies throughout the game (melee follow up(s) are needed) and using the Viper, Mattock or Vindicator doesn't reduce the number of shots to either strip or kill enemies.

I told you why it makes a difference with the Widow though. Infiltrators do not have a 140% damage buff, and it pays off to one-shot enemies quicker than Cloak will cool down. I'm wondering how much of a difference it makes at level 30. Perhaps I will test it later tonight.

Indeed, it's not clear in-game how ammo affects damage. It sounds a lot better than it really is. It is, however, never a bad thing to have added damage but investing 10 skillpoints in an ability that has little impact on gameplay and performance is crappy imo.

It is, unless you somehow have 10 points to spare, which is actually sometimes the case.

My point is that the main strength of ammo powers are not the added damage, but the secundary effects - burn, overheat and freeze.

And mostly I agree. In any case, I found Squad Cryo extremely useful.

[Simbacca]

Hard to believe this is true

termokanden wrote...

I enjoy using that build personally...

when it's followed by this

termokanden wrote...

...although I put 1 point in Pull rather than Shockwave

Bozorgmehr wrote...

My point is that the main strength of
ammo powers are not the added damage, but the secundary effects - burn,
overheat and freeze.

Agreed.  I've only ever choosen my ammo powers for a mission based on what CC effect I want, with the exception of Widow Shepards.

In the specific case of Squad Cryo Ammo, I find it a perfect fit on my Vanguards, Shotgun Infiltrators, and Rev Soldiers.

Modifié par Simbacca, 03 mai 2011 - 02:48 .