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Cryo...crap or not?


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#26
termokanden

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Simbacca wrote...

Hard to believe this is true

termokanden wrote...

I enjoy using that build personally...


when it's followed by this

termokanden wrote...

...although I put 1 point in Pull rather than Shockwave


:blink:


Ahem. I realize my mistake now. I have indeed been playing a Vanguard with that build, but that was a while ago. I must have forgotten about where the last point went. When I saw it just now, I thought "Shockwave? Why not Pull." Completely forgot about the part where Shockwave unlocks Pull.

I have on the other hand been playing an Adept this past week, and there Pull unlocks Shockwave, not the other way around.

Explanation accepted? :)

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 03:07 .


#27
Someone With Mass

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For cryo, all I can say is put on Squad Cryo Ammo, pick people with automatic weapons, activate aforementioned power, and watch as the battlefield is getting filled with Popsicles.

#28
Homebound

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Hard difficulty and up, its crap. Squad cryo is better than improved.

#29
Ahglock

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Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

ive heard lots of talk on this forum about having squad cryo ammo and inferno ammo on a vanguard, but that seems like an awful lot of points to waste in ammo powers.

personally ive never used it much. i think i spent one point in it and tried it out for a mission and saw it wasnt very useful. maybe i was using it wrong, but it gets a big fat "meh" from me.

fire ammo is always the better choice.


Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno Ammo)
Cryo Ammo - 10 Points (Squad Cryo Ammo)
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy Charge)
Shockwave - 1 Point
Pull - 0 Points
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam/Stasis/Reave/Whatever - 10 Points  (Whichever evolution you like best)

Is a very potent build. Apply Squad Cryo Ammo on your Squadmates and override your own weapons with Inferno Ammo and you decrease the enemy threat a noticable deal depending on what Squadmates and Weapon loadout you take (this build with Zaeed and Thane with Incisor SR and +50% Damage Passive Build is devastating!) and might leave you charging people with their friends freezing left and right.

This build of course favours a very aggressive playstyle as there is little distance ability to chose from, but the freezing saved my Vanguards glorious arse more than a few times.

This is notably no distance comabt build in in said one, Cryo Ammo can be forsaken for other powers. And Cryo own its own is not really a good ability for the player in contrast to other powers that can be available.


While on my first vanguard playthrough I did something similar.  While a couple times it was a clutch freeze, I probably only saw a dozen guys freeze the entire game.  I'd go levels with never seeing it happen.   It is why I eventually switched to

Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno Ammo)
Cryo Ammo 
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy Charge)
Shockwave - 10 Points wide
Pull - 10 Points area
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam/Stasis/Reave/Whatever - 1 Points 

On my soldier playthrough I saw it happen quite a bit though.  But when I charge spam I rarely defense strip in advance since I don't want them flying back it scews my claymore shot.  When I AR rush I do usually prestrip defenses.  

#30
Locutus_of_BORG

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Just like everyone's been saying - Cryo Ammo is great, but only at lvl1 or lvl4 Squad evo. It's good, easy to use CC for any class that wouldn't otherwise have any or much CC ability.

Cryo Ammo is a really good, easy anti-husk power for the combat classes.

#31
amcnow

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Ahglock wrote...

While on my first vanguard playthrough I did something similar.  While a couple times it was a clutch freeze, I probably only saw a dozen guys freeze the entire game.  I'd go levels with never seeing it happen.   It is why I eventually switched to

Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno Ammo)
Cryo Ammo 
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy Charge)
Shockwave - 10 Points wide
Pull - 10 Points area
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam/Stasis/Reave/Whatever - 1 Points 

On my soldier playthrough I saw it happen quite a bit though.  But when I charge spam I rarely defense strip in advance since I don't want them flying back it scews my claymore shot.  When I AR rush I do usually prestrip defenses.  


I prefer this:

Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno)
Cryo Ammo - 10 Points (Squad)
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy)
Shockwave - 1 Point
Pull - 0 Points
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam (Bonus) - 10 Points (Heavy)

I find Shockwave to be somewhat useful for temp-stunning advancement of shielded enemies.  Other than that, I find it to be a waste of precious recharge time (especially on higher difficulties).  I love Slam for several reasons: warp explosions (like Pull), short cooldown (like Pull), benefits from Assault Mastery (like Pull), and (my personal favorite) snap freeze slams (better than Pull).  You can also combo slam with a squadmate's Pull for even better effect.  Pull isn't bad, but Slam has better utility.

With that said, you have a good build.  I, however, recommend swapping the point allocation for Pull and Bonus Power (Pull = 1; Bonus = 10).  Pull is useful, even at one point; and there are bonus powers out there that better warrent more points (like Slam Image IPB).

Modifié par amcnow, 03 mai 2011 - 05:04 .


#32
Ahglock

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amcnow wrote...


I prefer this:

Incendiary Ammo - 10 Points (Inferno)
Cryo Ammo - 10 Points (Squad)
Charge - 10 Points (Heavy)
Shockwave - 1 Point
Pull - 0 Points
Assualt Mastery - 10 Points (Champion)
Slam (Bonus) - 10 Points (Heavy)

I find Shockwave to be somewhat useful for temp-stunning advancement of shielded enemies.  Other than that, I find it to be a waste of precious recharge time (especially on higher difficulties).  I love Slam for several reasons: warp explosions (like Pull), short cooldown (like Pull), benefits from Assault Mastery (like Pull), and (my personal favorite) snap freeze slams (better than Pull).  You can also combo slam with a squadmate's Pull for even better effect.  Pull isn't bad, but Slam has better utility.

With that said, you have a good build.  I, however, recommend swapping the point allocation for Pull and Bonus Power (Pull = 1; Bonus = 10).  Pull is useful, even at one point; and there are bonus powers out there that better warrent more points (like Slam Image IPB).


I like area pull.  I like the freedom of changing up my gameplay midmission where instead of charging a group I'll defense strip them, pull the enitre group(ignore, warp bomb, area throw from thane) then charge another guy.  With slam I can get one dude, it is awesome for that one guy.  But I just prefer being able to grab 2-3 guys at once.  I have toyed with 10 points in reave and 1 point in pull, just never tried it yet with a vanguard. 

#33
Bozorgmehr

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Simbacca wrote...

Agreed.  I've only ever choosen my ammo powers for a mission based on what CC effect I want, with the exception of Widow Shepards.

In the specific case of Squad Cryo Ammo, I find it a perfect fit on my Vanguards, Shotgun Infiltrators, and Rev Soldiers.


Yeah, the Inferno Ammo panic effect is very good, well worth the investment. It will give Soldiers and Vanguard an edge when fighting clustered organic enemies.

Disruptor is great against Geth but less interesting against organics imo. Cryo Ammo is good enough to build a strategy around; I love Scrogu's CryoGuard and there are plenty Infiltrator guides/builds that rely heavily on its effect. The only ammo power worthy to be labeled a power imho :(

#34
Alamar2078

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I used to be a Cryo hater but I've found situatons where even I must admit Cryo ammo is quite useful. I still don't love Cryo but it's worthwhile depending on playstyle and other factors.

#35
AK404

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Just to throw my two cents in...

Sinosleep has demonstrated that enemies have more health than defense, and that the damage bonuses from ammo are effective against that defense type only. Thus, incendiary ammo would have a 30% bonus against shields only, not health. Thus, for most single-defense enemies, you'll tear through their defenses far faster than you'll go through their health.

Thus, I've taken Simbacca's route and choose ammo based on their CC effects. That being said, I do enjoy squad disruptor ammo, but I'm giving cryo ammo a try on my infiltrator, and I have to say that when you're going up against enemies that immediate rush to melee - krogan, FENRIS, husks, Loki, klixen, varren - it's very handy to have because it allows you to continue holding the line. There're few things more satisfying than watching that charging varren frozen just as it reaches your feet.

Using a OSOK Infiltrator is very different than using a soldier or vanguard: she doesn't have the speed, brute force, or ammo reserves of a solider, nor does she have the mobility or close-contact power of the vanguard. Quite frankly, those two classes don't need squad cryo as much as the infiltrator does: there are two very important factors in combat that a lot of people tend not to consider: time and distance. To some extent, the soldier and vanguard can play around with these, but the infiltrator can't slow down time or cross distances in a blink. Thus, she needs many ways to get from point A to point B, and while she does have those many ways, squad cryo ammo is one of my favorites: why stop time when you can get to a crucial spot while your enemies are frozen solid (then cloak when they're not)?

Against intelligent enemies who duck for cover, it's also very nice because it takes them out of combat about as long as an overloaded weapon would. This isn't to say that cryo ammo will help you kill things faster, but it does allow you quite a bit of breathing room. Need to get to a certain position? Freeze the target, move in, shatter, take over the position. Sure, you could kill the target before moving in, but if you do that, one enemy from that pack you've so nicely pushed into that cramped area you call 'the barrel' might get it into his head to move in there before you do.

Like most of the pro-cryo posters on this thread, I give cryo ammo to my squad mates and reserve the defense-tearing ammo for myself. What I tend to do is strip defenses away from targets as I see them, then move on to the next one as my squad mates freeze the crap out of them.

#36
lolwut666

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@AK404

I pretty sure ammo powers deal extra damage to health.

#37
AK404

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Warp, AP, and shredder, I'm sure, but that's part of their description. However, I'm fairly certain that disruptor has no bonus damage once it tears past shields, and the bonus damage from incendiary comes mostly from the DOT it inflicts.

#38
Clonedzero

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personally im not big on cryo ammo, not arguing against its usefullness, im sure its great for squadmates, i just prefer other things.

like i play my vanguard alot differently than alot of people. i tend to use my SMG / AR alot, and use pull combo'ed with slam alot as well. (that combo you can do yourself and its loads of fun lol)

i sorta play my vanguard like a more aggressive adept. i dont charge nearly as often as i see people do on here. i still do it, but its more to reposition myself, flank, ect. than as my primary attack.

people might say "well why not just play an adept?" well, i like charge as a situational and tactical move more than singularity. i like having access to the shotgun when i want to use it. i like having fire ammo. i like the vanguards weapon damage bonuses the adept doesnt get.

adepts are still my second favorite, lots of pull + throw, and warp bombs when i play an adept.

i mean hell i rarely even fully upgrade fire ammo because i'd rather put points into my active abilities. but thats just the way i play. if you want a generic cookie cutter vanguard go for full ammo powers, full charge and passive and shotgun charge your way to victory. its just not how i like to play a vanguard :D

#39
Waltzingbear

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AK404 you blow my mind.

#40
dreman9999

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Cryo Ammo plus Krogan Claymore, Pistols and any heavy hiting weopon that's not a sniper rigle is devistating. Espeacialy on Hardcore and Insanity which eneime can sirvive heavy hiting weops due to extra health.

#41
dreman9999

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AK404 wrote...

Warp, AP, and shredder, I'm sure, but that's part of their description. However, I'm fairly certain that disruptor has no bonus damage once it tears past shields, and the bonus damage from incendiary comes mostly from the DOT it inflicts.

Distruptor has no extra damage but it does over heat your enemies weopons. It's great for delaying attack. It's manditory for close range non-shot gun inflitrators.

#42
dreman9999

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AK404 wrote...

Just to throw my two cents in...

Sinosleep has demonstrated that enemies have more health than defense, and that the damage bonuses from ammo are effective against that defense type only. Thus, incendiary ammo would have a 30% bonus against shields only, not health. Thus, for most single-defense enemies, you'll tear through their defenses far faster than you'll go through their health.

Thus, I've taken Simbacca's route and choose ammo based on their CC effects. That being said, I do enjoy squad disruptor ammo, but I'm giving cryo ammo a try on my infiltrator, and I have to say that when you're going up against enemies that immediate rush to melee - krogan, FENRIS, husks, Loki, klixen, varren - it's very handy to have because it allows you to continue holding the line. There're few things more satisfying than watching that charging varren frozen just as it reaches your feet.

Using a OSOK Infiltrator is very different than using a soldier or vanguard: she doesn't have the speed, brute force, or ammo reserves of a solider, nor does she have the mobility or close-contact power of the vanguard. Quite frankly, those two classes don't need squad cryo as much as the infiltrator does: there are two very important factors in combat that a lot of people tend not to consider: time and distance. To some extent, the soldier and vanguard can play around with these, but the infiltrator can't slow down time or cross distances in a blink. Thus, she needs many ways to get from point A to point B, and while she does have those many ways, squad cryo ammo is one of my favorites: why stop time when you can get to a crucial spot while your enemies are frozen solid (then cloak when they're not)?

Against intelligent enemies who duck for cover, it's also very nice because it takes them out of combat about as long as an overloaded weapon would. This isn't to say that cryo ammo will help you kill things faster, but it does allow you quite a bit of breathing room. Need to get to a certain position? Freeze the target, move in, shatter, take over the position. Sure, you could kill the target before moving in, but if you do that, one enemy from that pack you've so nicely pushed into that cramped area you call 'the barrel' might get it into his head to move in there before you do.

Like most of the pro-cryo posters on this thread, I give cryo ammo to my squad mates and reserve the defense-tearing ammo for myself. What I tend to do is strip defenses away from targets as I see them, then move on to the next one as my squad mates freeze the crap out of them.

Give cryro a try only if you have a shotgun or assult rifle for infiltrators.

#43
Clonedzero

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dreman9999 wrote...

Cryo Ammo plus Krogan Claymore, Pistols and any heavy hiting weopon that's not a sniper rigle is devistating. Espeacialy on Hardcore and Insanity which eneime can sirvive heavy hiting weops due to extra health.

yeah, i saw a video of a vanguard who had cryo ammo on his heavy pistol and he kept freezing dudes first shot (when their defenses were down). kinda made me curious about it. but not curious enough lol

#44
jamesp81

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lightsnow13 wrote...

 I have never found a use for cryo ammo. I'd much rather have incendiary. Otherwise I don't even use ammo powers that often (depending if I'm adept or soldier, obviously if I'm soldier I do). I just want to know why they would include cryo ammo when it has no + damage benefits. Does it work often? And Cryo blast -- is it worth it as well? I'd rather have incinerate. Personally I feel cryo to be one of the most useless abilities because you have to get through all the defence. Maybe someone could point it out to me how its not useless? -- no sarcasm. :unsure:


It's kind of situational, but is nice to have.

On higher difficulties, putting it on a shotgun, a heavy pistol, or the Mattock rifle works very well to shut down large hordes of husks.  A husk insta dies when it freezes.  Scimitar shotgun with cryo and you can usually get a freeze on a husk with two shots if your aim is good.  Mattock is very good for this too.

It's also really nice to stop a charging Krogan, Geth Destroyer, or Geth Prime (since Geth don't do the fire dance from incendiary rounds).

Frozen enemies also take more damage in general, so the squad form of it is pretty potent in general.

Edit:

What's really awesome is if you have Mordin with and he has maxed out Incinerate.  Use Incinerate on a group of husks to strip down their armor, then freeze em with cryo rounds.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 mai 2011 - 08:59 .


#45
jamesp81

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AK404 wrote...

Warp, AP, and shredder, I'm sure, but that's part of their description. However, I'm fairly certain that disruptor has no bonus damage once it tears past shields, and the bonus damage from incendiary comes mostly from the DOT it inflicts.


I find the very best part about incendiary is its anti armor capabilities.  It does instant damage, instead of DOT, to armor.  I find that the "fire dance" effect against health is worth far more than the DOT to health, but the DOT to health is nice too.

#46
termokanden

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AK404 wrote...

Warp, AP, and shredder, I'm sure, but that's part of their description. However, I'm fairly certain that disruptor has no bonus damage once it tears past shields, and the bonus damage from incendiary comes mostly from the DOT it inflicts.


It's very clear from the description that it deals bonus damage to synthetics. Against other enemies, it only deals damage to their shields.

As for Squad Cryo being useless on higher difficulties. I'm wondering how it's useful on lower difficulties when everything dies so quickly. You want to see why it's good on insanity? Try using it on the Reaper IFF mission. Then try without it.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 09:09 .


#47
Clonedzero

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jamesp81 wrote...

AK404 wrote...

Warp, AP, and shredder, I'm sure, but that's part of their description. However, I'm fairly certain that disruptor has no bonus damage once it tears past shields, and the bonus damage from incendiary comes mostly from the DOT it inflicts.


I find the very best part about incendiary is its anti armor capabilities.  It does instant damage, instead of DOT, to armor.  I find that the "fire dance" effect against health is worth far more than the DOT to health, but the DOT to health is nice too.

plus, you're LIGHTING DUDES ON FIRE.

so yeah. thats pretty awesome too.

#48
Saaziel

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I think pure Cc ammo and powers should have more "Combo" flexibility to warrant their uses.

That said , i used to think Cryo ammo was crap on my Widow infiltrator ,but on my Shotgun run its a complete reversal. So its also a question of gameplay. Perhaps a "Player only" evolution that lets you freeze/ slow down enemies through armour would also be interesting , should Ammo powers carry on in ME3.

#49
Malanek

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lightsnow13 wrote...
And Cryo blast -- is it worth it as well? I'd rather have incinerate. Personally I feel cryo to be one of the most useless abilities because you have to get through all the defence. Maybe someone could point it out to me how its not useless? -- no sarcasm. :unsure:


Mordins Cyroblast is awesome. Fully evolved his recharge time is cut in half. I like it on sentinels, but you get it so late it doesn't see alot of use and you waste points on throw.

The cyro powers in general suffer from pre-reqs. They would be a lot more useful if they didn't need to be unlocked.

#50
termokanden

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I've been known to cry about Cryo Blast on these forums. I have to say though, I used it a bit recently just for fun and I kind of like it. I will stick to my "poor man's Pull" argument, but it's still not a bad power. And shattering things is kind of fun!

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mai 2011 - 10:15 .