81 réponses à ce sujet

[Edhriano]

neppakyo wrote...

Marko GW wrote...

I have not anything against gay people but don't make everybody bisexual just for the sake of all possible romance options. Just think how lame would be if Morrigan and Alistair were also bisexuals in DA:O.

... there's a mod for that..

Why there is in fact, here you go :

http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=429

[Marko GW]

There are mods for party dancing to the "Thriller" but do I want that in the game?!

Also there is a mod for a sex scene with Shale.

[Perles75]

Anders in DA2 is definitely more angsty and quite far from the likeable character of Awakening, but with good reasons (the merge with Justice/Vengeance, personal reversals as the loss of Karl, and the templar behavior in Kirkwall).
Besides, several of the thematics developed in DA2 were already present in Awakenings, as the desire of freedom for apostate mages (not to mention his sexuality, my gaydar was ringing all the time with him in the party). What DA2 does is to bring these themes to the extreme, making Anders run towards the precipice pushed by its own desperation.

I am not disappointed by the treatment of Anders in DA2, I find it quite believable, if sad.

Modifié par Perles75, 04 mai 2011 - 08:37 .

[Sabriana]

erynnar wrote...

I would have had more emotional ties if they had made it mage X grown up in the Kirkwall Circle under Meredith's thumb, personally. Because instead of getting emotionally involved, I just get pissed that the Anders I fell in love with got a Justice lobotomy and a voice change. It is immersion breaking for me every talk to the guy. Which is why he stays in his clinic until his quests.

I like that idea, very much so. You see, I think it was a mistake to make him a character as he is now, against what he apparantly was. It's a bit like assuming that everyone purchased DA:A. He seems to have been a favorite in the Exp pack, but for those who don't have it, he was brand new.

Me, I had no problem with him, except the usual, that there was a lacking backstory. Also working against him was the fact that I, personally, had the feeling that he was pushed on the PC being the only available healer (early on for mageHawke, always for rogue/warrioHawke sans Bethany). Or the way that there was absolutely nothing I could do to make it "Hawke's story" instead of the "Anders story".

He was as new to me as Aveline or Varric. True, I found him boring, and a poster-boy for dissociative disorder per the DSM IV, but other than that, he never evoked emotions in me that tied into DA:A. Simply because there were no ties for me to follow.

[Marko GW]

@Sabriana

So from what I understand you never played DA:A yes??

If not, I recommend trying it and see for yourself... I bet you'll really like him, since you say you did not like him much in DA2.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Marko GW wrote...

I continued my Awakening playthrough yesterday and to all who say that there is no proof of Anders's heterosexuality in the game, just play again.

He makes a 4 or 5 remarks/lines in party banter that clearly says he is heterosexual, also he's hitting on Velanna couple of times.

"All I want is a PRETTY GIRL, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools."

Also his story about the woman-templar that chased him everytime he escaped the tower. He says didn't like to get caught but she made the experience enjoyable.

I have not anything against gay people but don't make everybody bisexual just for the sake of all possible romance options. Just think how lame would be if Morrigan and Alistair were also bisexuals in DA:O.

I suggest you read this, if you haven't already:
http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8

The main reason it seems to me is that it takes less development time (translate that to reduced costs) to make romances available as they are now, more so than consciously providing all possible romance options with everyone. Mind you, I don't completely agree with that logic. "Cost" is after all a relative term. It may end up being more costly in the long run to do this. Hard to say.

Even taking things as they are now, what I found issue with is this. It is mentioned in the booklet accompanying the game that if I choose a "break heart" symbol Hawke permanently ends romance with someone. I did that with Anders (and Fenris) at the first available opportunity. I was annoyed (to put it mildly) when I was presented with a "heart" symbol again and again later on in the game. A total immersion breaker for me. I may have gone wrong in interpreting what the booklet says, but, I mean, at least give me an option that categorically says, "I'm not interested in you". Damn it!

I haven't played Awakening yet, so I don't know how Anders was presented there. But again, I've heard that romances weren't offered in Awakening, so at least Bioware didn't commit to something beforehand.

I think more than Alistair, it was Morrigan who was "fixed" in her sexual preferences. And she was the one truly memorable character for me from DA:O, to the point that I truly regretted choosing to romance Leliana in my playthrough.

[Russalka]

The sexuality "issue" is getting redundant.

Edited just a bit.

Modifié par Russalka, 04 mai 2011 - 03:36 .

[JediMB]

Marko GW wrote...

I continued my Awakening playthrough yesterday and to all who say that there is no proof of Anders's heterosexuality in the game, just play again.

He makes a 4 or 5 remarks/lines in party banter that clearly says he is heterosexual, also he's hitting on Velanna couple of times.

"All I want is a PRETTY GIRL, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools."

Also his story about the woman-templar that chased him everytime he escaped the tower. He says didn't like to get caught but she made the experience enjoyable.

I have not anything against gay people but don't make everybody bisexual just for the sake of all possible romance options. Just think how lame would be if Morrigan and Alistair were also bisexuals in DA:O.

Sorry, but nothing in Awakening "clearly says he is hereosexual."

You could argue that he has a preference for women, but nothing he says restricts him from also being into men.

[harktag]

You can make a character more realistic and even -dare I say - "tragic" without making him (IMHO) far less likeable. Jennifer Helper has a very unique style of writing and she is good at that particular tone (the whole creepy Hespith dialogue in DA:O was quite well done).

When I first heard that Anders was making a return to DA2, I was ecstatic beyond words! And then when I heard that Jennifer had written him, I immediately became very wary. I was hoping that my worries were misplaced - that even though Anders had "changed" a bit during this iteration, he still maintained that charm about him that made him my favorite character in Awakenings. In the end, I discovered that my fears were actually true.

Yes I understand he's possessed and that's why he's changed a bit, but he could have changed without being so.... well..... aggravating! I even understand that they needed someone to fill the role of "you know what" at the end of the game in order to finalize the story.... I guess I just didn't really find the Act III storyline all that likeable either then.

I'm sorry, Jennifer. I respect you as a good writer for your style, but what you did to Anders simply broke my heart. :'(

Modifié par harktag, 04 mai 2011 - 06:23 .

[Teddie Sage]

*reads the thread title*

They improved him. A lot. And I'm seriously not trolling.

I disliked Awakening and most of its companions. The only exception was Sigrun.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 04 mai 2011 - 06:24 .

[nos_astra]

harktag wrote...
You can make a character more realistic and even -dare I say - "tragic" without making him (IMHO) far less likeable. Jennifer Helper has a very unique style of writing and she is good at that particular tone (the whole creepy Hespith dialogue in DA:O was quite well done).

When I first heard that Anders was making a return to DA2, I was ecstatic beyond words! And then when I heard that Jennifer had written him, I immediately became very wary. I was hoping that my worries were misplaced - that even though Anders had "changed" a bit during this iteration, he still maintained that charm about him that made him my favorite character in Awakenings. In the end, I discovered that my fears were actually true.

Yes I understand he's possessed and that's why he's changed a bit, but he could have changed without being so.... well..... aggravating! I even understand that they needed someone to fill the role of "you know what" at the end of the game in order to finalize the story.... I guess I just didn't really find the Act III storyline all that likeable either then.

I'm sorry, Jennifer. I respect you as a good writer for your style, but what you did to Anders simply broke my heart. :'(

I have to say I like her writing.

I wasn't too fond of Anders in Awakening. I found him annoying because he seemed to be a blatant Alistair copy. My main complaint was that for a guy with such a dark past (a mage who's craving freedom so much he fled the Circle seven times and spent one year in solitary confinement?) he was way too cheerful. And I found his approach to magic (shoot lightning at fools?) irresponsible.

I was thrilled to see this points remedied in DA2 where I love to hate him.

[XXVI]

Step by step:

1.  Fans of Anders' new direction like his brooding, dark personality, and insist that it is more real.
2.  Every other damn character in DA2 has a dark, brooding personality as well.
3.  Without the ability to talk with the characters whenever you want and delve into their backstories, "dark, brooding personality" comes off as "contrived attempt to make the game grittier".
4.  While the writers attempted to make the plot and characters darker and more realistic, the gameplay developers and designers succeed in making the gameplay faster and more arcade-like (exploding animations, unrealistic spawns, no explanation for some battles), and the art more cartoonish.
5. It's the selfsame faction of developers advocating "faster, fun gameplay" that resulted in the implementation of the dialogue wheel and the lack of on-demand dialogue, thus preventing point #1 and 2 from having any real impact.

I think it's this critical disconnect between various departments that makes the "darker" Anders seem ridiculous and unneccesary.

[erynnar]

* Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.

* Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?

* Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?

* Anders: Because it sounds difficult?

* Justice: Apathy is a weakness.

* Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.


───────

* Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.

* Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?

* Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.

* Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.

* Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.

* Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

And from these two convos I could just as easily sumise, along with the very last one in that post, that Anders could say no and keep saying no if Justice asked him to do it. I don't see Anders from DAOA changing his mind. And Justice himself says he can't change bodies again (not that anything from DAO seems to matter much in regards to DA2).

As to the OP's question...they decided to retcon everything from DAO including bringing the dead back to life. They gave Anders a Justice/Vengeance lobotomy instead of creating a mage that had grown up in and escaped the Kirkwall Circle and started a mage underground railroad because that would have made more sense and been harder? I don't really get it myself.

[Edhriano]

XXVI wrote...

Step by step:

1.  Fans of Anders' new direction like his brooding, dark personality, and insist that it is more real.
2.  Every other damn character in DA2 has a dark, brooding personality as well.
3.  Without the ability to talk with the characters whenever you want and delve into their backstories, "dark, brooding personality" comes off as "contrived attempt to make the game grittier".
4.  While the writers attempted to make the plot and characters darker and more realistic, the gameplay developers and designers succeed in making the gameplay faster and more arcade-like (exploding animations, unrealistic spawns, no explanation for some battles), and the art more cartoonish.
5. It's the selfsame faction of developers advocating "faster, fun gameplay" that resulted in the implementation of the dialogue wheel and the lack of on-demand dialogue, thus preventing point #1 and 2 from having any real impact.

I think it's this critical disconnect between various departments that makes the "darker" Anders seem ridiculous and unneccesary.

Finally ! Some one who makes sense !

[erynnar]

Sabriana wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I would have had more emotional ties if they had made it mage X grown up in the Kirkwall Circle under Meredith's thumb, personally. Because instead of getting emotionally involved, I just get pissed that the Anders I fell in love with got a Justice lobotomy and a voice change. It is immersion breaking for me every talk to the guy. Which is why he stays in his clinic until his quests.

I like that idea, very much so. You see, I think it was a mistake to make him a character as he is now, against what he apparantly was. It's a bit like assuming that everyone purchased DA:A. He seems to have been a favorite in the Exp pack, but for those who don't have it, he was brand new.

Me, I had no problem with him, except the usual, that there was a lacking backstory. Also working against him was the fact that I, personally, had the feeling that he was pushed on the PC being the only available healer (early on for mageHawke, always for rogue/warrioHawke sans Bethany). Or the way that there was absolutely nothing I could do to make it "Hawke's story" instead of the "Anders story".

He was as new to me as Aveline or Varric. True, I found him boring, and a poster-boy for dissociative disorder per the DSM IV, but other than that, he never evoked emotions in me that tied into DA:A. Simply because there were no ties for me to follow.

Oh and this^.  I too Sabbi might have taken the lobotomized Anders better if they hadn't made it a few months for him to change into whiny douche bag and that is before he gets to Act 2.  A slower progression from the Anders we knew in DAOA to the whiny douche bag would have been better. Hawke meets the funny Anders and watches his slow decent....

Oh, and I would have liked him better if the same voice actor had played him. I talk to Cullen and keep sighing and thinking about that voice for Anders (personal preference of course).

[erynnar]

Edhriano wrote...

XXVI wrote...

Step by step:

1.  Fans of Anders' new direction like his brooding, dark personality, and insist that it is more real.
2.  Every other damn character in DA2 has a dark, brooding personality as well.
3. 
Without the ability to talk with the characters whenever you want and
delve into their backstories, "dark, brooding personality" comes off as
"contrived attempt to make the game grittier".
4.  While the writers
attempted to make the plot and characters darker and more realistic, the
gameplay developers and designers succeed in making the gameplay faster
and more arcade-like (exploding animations, unrealistic spawns, no
explanation for some battles), and the art more cartoonish.
5. It's
the selfsame faction of developers advocating "faster, fun gameplay"
that resulted in the implementation of the dialogue wheel and the lack
of on-demand dialogue, thus preventing point #1 and 2 from having any
real impact.

I think it's this critical disconnect between
various departments that makes the "darker" Anders seem ridiculous and
unneccesary.

Finally ! Some one who makes sense !

This ^, and well done!

Alistairlover94 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

* Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.

* Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?

* Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?

* Anders: Because it sounds difficult?

* Justice: Apathy is a weakness.

* Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.


───────

* Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.

* Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?

* Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.

* Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.

* Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.

* Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

And from these two convos I could just as easily sumise, along with the very last one in that post, that Anders could say no and keep saying no if Justice asked him to do it. I don't see Anders from DAOA changing his mind. And Justice himself says he can't change bodies again (not that anything from DAO seems to matter much in regards to DA2).

As to the OP's question...they decided to retcon everything from DAO including bringing the dead back to life. They gave Anders a Justice/Vengeance lobotomy instead of creating a mage that had grown up in and escaped the Kirkwall Circle and started a mage underground railroad because that would have made more sense and been harder? I don't really get it myself.

Character derailment, my dear.

And this^.

[Mrbananagrabber]

chart4ever wrote...

Bcoz when you are possessed by a Spirit of Justice (turned to become Vengeance) you act like a cheerfull an' happy jester, spilling jokes out of your ass every second...

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with Anders. In DA2 they made us realise that even a just person (or in this matter, a jokester) can become "corrupted"... one way or another.

They needed someone to "make a HUGE impact" on the world. Is there a better way than to chose a person that you love/like to do it? Even if that means destroying that man?

I only wish his death was more epic...

PS. To those complaining about the "gay" thing.
Don't romance him?

Yeah hard to do when its either jump on his magic wand or lose approval. Any idea how retarded the romance/approval system is in this game?

[Realmzmaster]

Anders took a spirit of Justice into his body. If you played Awakening you know how much hatred Anders has for the Chantry and Templars. Just like a desire demon can enhance and warp the desire of mages so can good spirits.
Merrill had it right when she said there are no good spirit or evil demons. Those spirits are the embodiment of human emotion. There is a thin line between Justice and Vengeance. Anders hatred warp Justice into Vengeance.
Madness does not happen slowly all the time. In some people they descend into madness rather quickly. But Anders does show signs of his old self when taking to Varric in Act II when talking about the Black Marsh.
Anders has a spirit from the Fade in his body. Justice in Awakening was in a dead body. He could access the dead body's memories, but not its emotions. Therefore nothing to warp Justice. Justice could continue in his single minded belief.
Now mix in Anders and all that hate you get Vengeance. If you have Varric and Anders in the party in Act III you get the following dialogue:

* Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
* Anders: This is past time for joking.
* Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
* Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
* Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
* Anders: Stop.
* Varric: You are no fun anymore.

Anders ceases to exist there is only Vengeance.

[Angarma]

Anders was very humorous in Awakening and judging by dialogue, he was heterosexual.
In DA2 he became a brooding Dr. Manhattan V1 (Fenris - V2) and was retconned into having a homosexual past.
I dislike both moves in character development. His actual involvement in DA2 seemed like a cheap grab to fill missing roles.
They should have left him to his Awakening epilogue. Let others take on his roles (Orsino to blow up chantry etc.).

Modifié par Dodok, 04 mai 2011 - 08:06 .

[erynnar]

Dodok wrote...

Anders was very humorous in Awakening and judging by dialogue, he was heterosexual.
In DA2 he became a brooding Dr. Manhattan V1 (Fenris - V2) and was retconned into having a homosexual past.
I dislike both moves in character development. His actual involvement in DA2 seemed like a cheap grab to fill missing roles.
They should have left him to his Awakening epilogue. Let others take on his roles (Orsino to blow up chantry etc).

This^ Those would have worked very well to my mind. Orsino makes sense too after all, look what he was willing to do in Act 3 (no spoilers) when he freaks out for no good reason.

Anders should have stayed in Amaranthine with Ser Pounce. In fact I wish they hadn't brought any one from DAO back for this game. It would have been better if they hadn't.

Modifié par erynnar, 04 mai 2011 - 07:53 .

[MyKingdomCold]

In DA2, Anders isn't homosexual he's bisexual.

I was playing as a male Hawke and he's attracted to me, I guess. But when I took him to Sundermount by the Dalish camp, he also said something like "In my experience all Dalish women are crazy."

[Nerdage]

erynnar wrote...

* Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.

* Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?

* Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?

* Anders: Because it sounds difficult?

* Justice: Apathy is a weakness.

* Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.


───────

* Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.

* Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?

* Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.

* Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.

* Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.

* Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

And from these two convos I could just as easily sumise, along with the very last one in that post, that Anders could say no and keep saying no if Justice asked him to do it. I don't see Anders from DAOA changing his mind. And Justice himself says he can't change bodies again (not that anything from DAO seems to matter much in regards to DA2).

As to the OP's question...they decided to retcon everything from DAO including bringing the dead back to life. They gave Anders a Justice/Vengeance lobotomy instead of creating a mage that had grown up in and escaped the Kirkwall Circle and started a mage underground railroad because that would have made more sense and been harder? I don't really get it myself.

It's not the same Anders in DA2 as it is in Awakening, he's both Anders and Justice now. Like he says, the two of them can't have a conversation, they are one. I'd be lying if I said I understood fully how possesion works in this setting, but so would you, it's not like Bioware published a textbook on it. That said, there are references to how possession changes a person in both games, Marethari talks about how a possessed person's soul is scarred even after the spirit is removed, and Arl Eamon refers to Connor being different at the post coronation even if the demon's killed in the fade.

There's also evidence of spirits being influenced by the personality of their hosts, like the Evelina abomination scolding you for being a traitor to the Fereldens before attacking, and the Baroness' vanity in Awakening. I don't see what part of Anders' personality changing is a retcon, the only part that's hard to explain is his becoming a warden if you hand him over to the templars. He escaped again and another warden recruits him? Seems a bit thin.

Also, Justice didn't even understand how it came to be in the body it had in Awakening, I don't remember it ever saying it couldn't possess another body but if it did then it could easily have been wrong.

Modifié par nerdage, 04 mai 2011 - 08:10 .

[Russalka]

He never stated he was heterosexual.

[Liou]

Anders was easily my favourite companion in Awakening but he is definitely also amoung my favourites in DA II. Sure he has changed but atleast we got an explanation for this unlike Merrill which seems like a new character when you compare her to her Origins counterpart. Not that it bothers me or anything, i liked her better in DA II but why rewrite a character that way without any explanation? Why not just come up with a whole new character instead? With Anders it made more sense. I liked the way his pro mage agenda was getting completely out of control although i did miss his humor. Altogether i liked both versions but for different reasons and this is the real problem with Anders in DA II in my opinion, he did change a little too much but still, i liked him.

As for his sexuality i don't remember having ever heard him say that he was hetero either. People don't walk around with a note about their sexuality on their back. I don't understand why people is so upset about this.

Modifié par Liou, 04 mai 2011 - 10:11 .