[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The templars chose of their own volition to obey the orders to kill every enchanter, mage, and apprentice from the Kirkwall Circle. [/quote]
As is their duty when a Circle is judged to be beyond salvation, which is when the RoA is invoked. [/quote]
It wouldn't be the first time the mass murder of men, women, and children was excused because the soldiers were only "following orders."
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke isn't a leader, he's recognized as the Champion. However, while I can see why Cullen would prevent a pro-templar Hawke from getting killed by Meredith, I don't see why Cullen would it being "out of hand" for a pro-mage Hawke who is killing templars to protect the mages from them. [/quote]
Point, missing it.
Hawke is the closest to a leader Kirkwall has at that moment. He may not officialy be a viscount but he has the respect of nobles, commoners and the city guard. People trust him because of his actions against the Qunari. Meredith rules because she is the commander of the largest armed force in the city, not because the people choose her to be their ruler.
It doesn't matter if Meredith kills a bunch of mages who most people don't really care about, but killing the person who saved the entire city could result in an uproar by the general population. [/quote]
Hawke isn't a leader, which is the point you seem to be missing. He isn't proactive in gathering people against Meredith, he doesn't assembly renegade templars and mages to his cause, he doesn't unite the nobility against Meredith, he's almost entirely reactive to the situations around him. The ruler of Kirkwall is Meredith because she becomes the dictator over the entire city-state.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If the templars are keeping the templars in custody and not killing them, then they have to watch over them during this time - it doesn't mean the mages aren't going to be made tranquil. Gaider addressed this as a possibility for mages who aren't killed in Rights of Annulment, and Cullen didn't seem to have an issue with tranquility when he is shown Alrik's papers (and Hawke even accuses him of supporting the measure). [/quote]
Because tranquility isn't illegal by itself. It is only used as the last resort to avoid killing the mage who crossed the line.
The fact Ser Alrik abused it doesn't mean all templars follow his example. Hell, Bethany even tells you in her letter that most templars are decent men and women who only do their duty. They don't even shed a tear when Alrik is killed. Alrik's solution was turned down by both Meredith and the Grand Cleric so neither of them believed turning mages tranquil by default is justified. [/quote]
What Bethany actually says is, "Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views." Given the people mentioning how mages are getting whipped, hearing screams, and how we have Alain mention Kerras' visits to him at night, it's clear that the Circle of Kirkwall is a toxic enviornment for the mages.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Circle of Ferelden can be annulled even if the abominations are all put down and there are plenty of mages who aren't corrupt and innocent, which means that the Circle wasn't lost to demonic possession, but it didn't spark a revolution among the mages across the continent. If Cullen is the moderate that you seem to think he is, I don't see the mages rising up if he's sparing mages and putting an end to the Right of Annulment. I don't see the mages rising up if the Right of Annulment at Kirkwall wasn't as bad, if not worse, than the previous ones that were enacted. [/quote]
Circle in Ferelden was under assault by the demons, who had driven out the templars and were either killing mages or possessing them.
Gregoir invokes the RoA once he's lost all control over the Circle, and revokes it once the Warden has made the tower safe again.
By Cullen's own words a large number of mages who survived were saved and were neither made tranquil nor killed. [/quote]
Witch Hunt notes that many mages in the Right of Annulment were killed. Cullen notes that some were spared because Greagoir makes a point in Origins to say he'll argue on their behalf, and leave their fate to the Grand Cleric to decide. Again, if a moderate Knight-Commander prevented an outcry from all the Circles of Magi, then your theory about Cullen being a moderate should have prevented a continential revolt from the Circles of Magi. Instead, what happened at Kirkwall triggered an outcry and a revolution among all the Circles of Magi under the control of the Chantry and the templars.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
In case of Kirkwall the RoA has run it's course and by the time Hawke fights Meredith the mages have either fled, are dead or have been taken captive.
The RoA in Kirkwall was unjustified. There was a strong case for replacing Orsino and searching the tower to root out blood mages, but not for destroying the whole circle. [/quote]
We don't know that every prior Right of Annulment was justified. If Uldred is stopped and the abominations are destroyed, then the Right of Annulment is unjustified in the case of the Circle of Ferelden, too. The difference is that Knight-Commander Greagoir is a moderate, and if Cullen was the moderate that you think he is, then his actions should have prevented a rebellion. If the three mages spared aren't made tranquil, and if you think he spares others, then it should have provided the same reaction that Greagoir's actions at the Circle of Ferelden provided: none. Instead, the Circle mages look at what happened in Kirkwall and every single Circle of Magi rebelled against the Chantry and the templars. That tells me that Cullen wasn't the moderate that you claim he was if his actions didn't mitigate the response like Greagoir's did.
[quote]Master Shiori wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
At least they are given the opportunity.[/quote]
I'd say they just postponed the innevitable, but whatever. [/quote]
No, committing genocide kills them, and preventing the massacre of every mage by the templars gives them a chance to live.
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