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[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Indeed.

And both game lore and DG say that NO PRISONERS ARE TAKEN.

Cullen takes prisoners.

Explain the contradiction.

DG speaking in WoG mode actually explored that issue with Lob.  In the rare case where a mage actually survives the initial conflict, they may be executed or perhaps be made tranquil later.  They are NOT permitted to continue to exist as mages.  The RoA is very clear and Cullen never rescinds it.

-Polaris

A mage "surviving" is not the same as a mage taken prisoner.  In that same exchange with Lob - which we both read - he said there were no prisoners taken.  That was very clear.

So again, explain the contradiction.

[LobselVith8]

Agamo45 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anyone else think siding with the Templars is the morally right thing to do?

Killing Bethany IS the logical extension of siding with Meredith.

-Polaris

No it isn't. The Right of Annulment is about neutralizing the Circle because it is completely out of control, which the Kirkwall circle was. And the Templars only kill those mages which resist or who are maleficars. If you side with the templars for example, several mages give themselves up, and while Meredith wants to kill them, Cullen stops her, saying something about taking in surrendering mages.

You mean three mages, who might be made tranquil.

Agamo45 wrote...

Bethany and those mages aren't a threat, so you don't kill them.

Meredith orders the Right of Annulment against the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches because an apostate blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, which is why Meredith stabs an unarmed Bethany in the back (unless Hawke stops her). Gaider mentioned the order is usually to "kill everyone" in the Right of Annulment:

David Gaider wrote...

The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

She is trying. She knows that no amount of screaming or struggling will save her life.  She is TRYING to appeal to her brother's sense of kinship and morality.

With reverse psychology and/or relatively subtle sarcasm? What a time to pick to be the only person in the game who isn't all ham-fisted with declarations of their ideals and goals...

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Indeed.

And both game lore and DG say that NO PRISONERS ARE TAKEN.

Cullen takes prisoners.

Explain the contradiction.

DG speaking in WoG mode actually explored that issue with Lob.  In the rare case where a mage actually survives the initial conflict, they may be executed or perhaps be made tranquil later.  They are NOT permitted to continue to exist as mages.  The RoA is very clear and Cullen never rescinds it.

-Polaris

A mage "surviving" is not the same as a mage taken prisoner.  In that same exchange with Lob - which we both read - he said there were no prisoners taken.  That was very clear.

So again, explain the contradiction.

I did.  Those mages aren't taken prisoner.  They are tranquiled or executed.  No contradiction.

I think that scene was put in to make pro-templar players feel better, but the fact remains that siding with Meredith means slaughtering all mages in the gallows for a crime they didn't commit down to the last child including Bethany.  If you save Bethany then, you are being hypocritical (same if you try to save those three mages btw whatever their fate).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She is trying. She knows that no amount of screaming or struggling will save her life.  She is TRYING to appeal to her brother's sense of kinship and morality.

With reverse psychology and/or relatively subtle sarcasm? What a time to pick to be the only person in the game who isn't all ham-fisted with declarations of their ideals and goals...

She is trying to appeal to the humanity of her older sibling since it is the only possibly way she will survive. She knows that Meredith is a monster and the Templars will do whatever she says.  Her brother (or sister) is her only chance.  It's sad and you demean the entire scene.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She is trying. She knows that no amount of screaming or struggling will save her life.  She is TRYING to appeal to her brother's sense of kinship and morality.

With reverse psychology and/or relatively subtle sarcasm? What a time to pick to be the only person in the game who isn't all ham-fisted with declarations of their ideals and goals...

So she is supposed to beg her own brother to spare her from a fate she clearly doesn't deserve, for him to realize what he's doing?

I could accept Hawke relunctantly doign what he thinks is necessary. But to say that Bethany genuinely accepted being murdered, when just a few seconds ago she called Meredith mad? Because she didn't beg?

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Indeed.

And both game lore and DG say that NO PRISONERS ARE TAKEN.

Cullen takes prisoners.

Explain the contradiction.

DG speaking in WoG mode actually explored that issue with Lob.  In the rare case where a mage actually survives the initial conflict, they may be executed or perhaps be made tranquil later.  They are NOT permitted to continue to exist as mages.  The RoA is very clear and Cullen never rescinds it.

-Polaris

A mage "surviving" is not the same as a mage taken prisoner.  In that same exchange with Lob - which we both read - he said there were no prisoners taken.  That was very clear.

So again, explain the contradiction.

I did.  Those mages aren't taken prisoner.  They are tranquiled or executed.  No contradiction.

I think that scene was put in to make pro-templar players feel better, but the fact remains that siding with Meredith means slaughtering all mages in the gallows for a crime they didn't commit down to the last child including Bethany.  If you save Bethany then, you are being hypocritical (same if you try to save those three mages btw whatever their fate).

-Polaris

The  . . .mages who were taken prisoner were . . . .not taken prisoner? 


I . . .  . .ummm . . . okay, I'm going to go bang my head against a brick wall now.  Have a nice night. 

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

She is trying to appeal to the humanity of her older sibling since it is the only possibly way she will survive.

That's the part i'm questioning. Is she, really? What if she isn't?

[thesuperdarkone]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She is trying to appeal to the humanity of her older sibling since it is the only possibly way she will survive.

That's the part i'm questioning. Is she, really? What if she isn't?

 

Well if your sibling was helping slaughter innocent people for something they didn't do and you were part of this group, wouldn't you try to appeal to your sibling to avoid getting slaughtered.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So she is supposed to beg her own brother to spare her from a fate she clearly doesn't deserve, for him to realize what he's doing?

Yes. Sometimes you have to slap a person to snap them out of their hysterics. Blunt and direct "why are you doing this? For what do you want to murder me?" may make a person stop and actually think why they're indeed doing what they're doing rather than go through the motions because they're too caught up in it to stop on their own.

If you choose not to do it, then it's reasonable imo to ask a question why.

I could accept Hawke relunctantly doign what he thinks is necessary. But to say that Bethany genuinely accepted being murdered, when just a few seconds ago she called Meredith mad? Because she didn't beg?

But would you say it's absolutely and entirely impossible Bethany didn't in the end trust the judgement of the person she's been idolizing her entire life, and maybe believed that what Hawke was doing was the right choice? Even if that meant her own death?

It's not like she didn't just witness the First Enchanter turn into a monster. Given that line about being an abomination maybe she's pictured the possibility of herself becoming like that at some point, too. Couldn't that make a person doubt if they aren't in fact as dangerous as everyone around seems to be telling them?

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 mai 2011 - 03:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Not buying. Once a mage goes abomination, it will do anything to defend itself. That's how Anders tested Keenan to be sure he was clean.

Bethany is INNOCENT and you kill your own innocent sister. That's what the Right of Annulment means.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Not buying. Once a mage goes abomination, it will do anything to defend itself. That's how Anders tested Keenan to be sure he was clean.

Bethany is INNOCENT and you kill your own innocent sister. That's what the Right of Annulment means.

I wasn't saying Bethany was an abomination at that particular moment. Rather, wondering if --given the events which just unfolded before her eyes-- she could've imagined herself becoming something like that eventually. And if such a prospect could've swayed her judgement.

In other words, that's not to question Bethany was innocent (i believe she was) but whether she had doubt at that point if she could remain forever that innocent self. And if such doubt could make her question if maybe Hawke was actually right, and the mages were ultimately too dangerous to be left alive. Herself included.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

I wasn't saying Bethany was an abomination at that particular moment. Rather, wondering if --given the events which just unfolded before her eyes-- she could've imagined herself becoming something like that eventually. And if such a prospect could've swayed her judgement.

Bethany is calling Meredith mad, and then she gets Meredith's blade in her back. What was supposed to sway her judgement about the Right of Annulment being invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall because of what an apostate did?

tmp7704 wrote...

In other words, that's not to question Bethany was innocent (i believe she was) but whether she had doubt at that point if she could remain forever that innocent self. And if such doubt could make her question if maybe Hawke was actually right, and the mages were ultimately too dangerous to be left alive. Herself included.

That reads like you're inserting your opinion on the issue of mages onto Bethany. She argued against the senseless murder of her people. If Hawke sided with the mages, she says that her time in the Gallows had showed her that mages deserve to be free. When Hawke sided with Meredith to kill the mages for something they were innocent of doing, it looked more to me like Bethany saw Meredith as a mad Knight-Commander and she was resigned to her death.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bethany is calling Meredith mad, and then she gets Meredith's blade in her back. What was supposed to sway her judgement about the Right of Annulment being invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall because of what an apostate did?

I've mentioned it in the earlier posts -- seeing the First Enchanter turn into abomination out of sudden. It's not like his action wasn't a big "WTF, Orsino" to many players, including these who'd support the mages.

That reads like you're inserting your opinion on the issue of mages onto Bethany.

Not as much my opinion, but the opinion presented constantly in the game as the one opposite to the concept of granting the mages full rights. I'm just wondering if Bethany could reach the conclusion that's actually a valid point of view, and consequently change her mind about the subject. Or at least come to the point where she had doubts strong enough that she would accept what was being done.

[SirGladiator]

I can't imagine anybody being horrible enough to actually kill Bethany, that is unspeakably horrible and evil. She's my favorite character in the game, and definitely the most 'good' and noble, she's just awesome. I do plan on playing through on the templar side once just to see what happens, but I definitely wouldn't go that far, I wouldnt even watch that clip, I imagine its every bit as horrible as people say it is, I wouldn't want to see something like that. I'd definitely save Bethany if I ever played that way up to that point. Of course my 'real' playthroughs I would always side with the mages, although most of them seem to be just as crazy/evil as the templars, I'd do it for Bethany, just like I did on my first playthrough.

Another interesting point is, people are referring to the Right of Annulment, but for those who played DAO, we know that wasn't actually involved here. Even in a true state of emergency, like the one in Ferelden when abominations had literally taken over the tower, the templars, including the head templar himself, didn't have the authority to invoke that Right, he could only request it from a higher authority. The authority that Meredith had was the authority to REQUEST the right, she could've requested it from Leliana (and even Leliana might not've been high enough ranking to issue the Right, Im not sure), or from some other really high ranking person in the area, I don't know exactly who the best person in that area to request it from would've been, it probably would've been the nice old lady that Anders murdered, obviously she was no longer an option at that point, but Meredith had no more authority to kill people than any other citizen of Kirkwall. What she was doing was murder pure and simple, there was no Right of Annulment, and on that basis alone I would never side with her in any of my real playthroughs. Of course even if someone in authority had been on hand to give her the authority to execute the Right I'd have still stood against it in defense of Bethany, but it would've been a tougher spot to be in. As it was, Meredith was just a idol-crazy murderer, and maybe she would've been crazy without the idol too, who knows . But let's not forget, what happened in Kirkwall was NOT the Right of Annulment, it was just a bunch of crazy templars trying to murder a bunch of mostly-crazy mages, it was murder plain and simple. The only mage who deserved to be executed was Anders, and he got his justice from Hawke, who was really probably the only sane authority figure left in town at that point.

[tmp7704]

SirGladiator wrote...

Even in a true state of emergency, like the one in Ferelden when abominations had literally taken over the tower, the templars, including the head templar himself, didn't have the authority to invoke that Right, he could only request it from a higher authority.

This was discussed in an earlier thread, with Mr.Gaider weighting in and saying Meredith had the authority to invoke the Annulment, given the situation (as the person she was obliged to answer to had been blown up along with the chantry, thus leaving Meredith as the person in charge, effectively)

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 mai 2011 - 05:02 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bethany is calling Meredith mad, and then she gets Meredith's blade in her back. What was supposed to sway her judgement about the Right of Annulment being invoked against the Circle of Kirkwall because of what an apostate did?

I've mentioned it in the earlier posts -- seeing the First Enchanter turn into abomination out of sudden. It's not like his action wasn't a big "WTF, Orsino" to many players, including these who'd support the mages.

Bethany has seen a mage turn into an abomination before - it's not the first time for her. She addresses that her years in Kirkwall showed her that the Maker doesn't want mages to be locked up if Hawke decides to protect the mages from Meredith.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That reads like you're inserting your opinion on the issue of mages onto Bethany.

Not as much my opinion, but the opinion presented constantly in the game as the one opposite to the concept of granting the mages full rights. I'm just wondering if Bethany could reach the conclusion that's actually a valid point of view, and consequently change her mind about the subject. Or at least come to the point where she had doubts strong enough that she would accept what was being done.

Considering that Bethany addresses that her years in the Kirkwall Circle showed her that mages deserve to be free, while she argues against the senseless murder of men, women, and children for a crime that Anders had committed, and can get murdered herself for it - I don't see how she would reach that conclusion when she is addressing Meredith as "mad" after the Harvester is killed.

[IanPolaris]

SirGladiator,

Based on the codex entries and lore from DAO/DAA, you'd have a point re the legality of the Annulment. I had the same thought. However, in what I still regard as a rather blatent retcon, DG has stepped in and stated that Merideth as KC did have the authority since the grand cleric was dead.

Even so, *prudence* should have dictated that she ask the DIvine anyway since before she declared war on all mages, there wasn't a city-wide emergency. There was a terrorist act and the perpetrator had confessed and was in custody.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Even in a true state of emergency, like the one in Ferelden when abominations had literally taken over the tower, the templars, including the head templar himself, didn't have the authority to invoke that Right, he could only request it from a higher authority.

This was discussed in an earlier thread, with Mr.Gaider weighting in and saying Meredith had the authority to invoke the Annulment, given the situation (as the person she was obliged to answer to had been blown up along with the chantry, thus leaving Meredith as the person in charge, effectively)

In essence, committing an act of genocide against the entire population of men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle for a crime they didn't commit is 100% legal according to Chantry law.

[Nameless2345]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In essence, committing an act of genocide against the entire population of men, women, and children in the Kirkwall Circle for a crime they didn't commit is 100% legal according to Chantry law.

Here is a quote from the codex:

"It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

Mass murder is nothing new for the Chantry. 

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

Even so, *prudence* should have dictated that she ask the DIvine anyway since before she declared war on all mages, there wasn't a city-wide emergency. There was a terrorist act and the perpetrator had confessed and was in custody.

-Polaris

It was exactly a city wide emergency. She didn't declare that all Circles across Thedas must be annuled. She ordered a RoA against the Circle she had authority over as Knight-Commander.

Normally, the decision would fall to the Grand Cleric, just as it did in Ferelden when Gregoir had to send word to Denerim about the situation in the Circle Tower and ask for permission to invoke the rite. 
In Kirkwall, thanks to Anders, the Grand Cleric was dead so Meredith had free reign to do whatever she wanted.

[88mphSlayer]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anyone else think siding with the Templars is the morally right thing to do?

Killing Bethany IS the logical extension of siding with Meredith.

-Polaris

i never liked Bethany, Carver was always a better character

[Beerfish]

I'm Hawke, the champion, I have an absolute elite group of loyal friends that can take out just about anything we want (having a reload button helps). I can easily support the Templars and then tell Meredith to unhand her. The rules don't apply to me and my response to the people who demand that I hand over my sister if I support the Templars is. I'm Hawke, what are you going to do about it?

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Even so, *prudence* should have dictated that she ask the DIvine anyway since before she declared war on all mages, there wasn't a city-wide emergency. There was a terrorist act and the perpetrator had confessed and was in custody.

-Polaris

It was exactly a city wide emergency. She didn't declare that all Circles across Thedas must be annuled. She ordered a RoA against the Circle she had authority over as Knight-Commander.

Normally, the decision would fall to the Grand Cleric, just as it did in Ferelden when Gregoir had to send word to Denerim about the situation in the Circle Tower and ask for permission to invoke the rite. 
In Kirkwall, thanks to Anders, the Grand Cleric was dead so Meredith had free reign to do whatever she wanted.

The Kirkwall Chantry was attacked by Anders, and instead of focusing on the civilians (like Aveline did when she ordered the guards to look after them) or getting the mages away from the populace, Meredith ordered her army of templars to execute every man, woman, and child with magical ability. The Kirkwall Circle isn't responsible for the actions of a known apostate who was protected by the Champion's reputation, and Meredith doesn't even arrest or execute Anders for what he's done - she ignores his existance for the most part. Anders is even supposed to be able to aid Hawke in killing the mages on the rivalry path.

The scene where Meredith stabs Bethany in the back illustrates what the RoA is about - killing mages regardless of who they are or what they are like, because the Right demands it to be so.

[BigBad]

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.