243 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

BigBad wrote...

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.

1.  It is virtually certain that not all mages in the Gallows are insane bloodmages.  Indeed (in this case) if your sister is in the circle you KNOW this to be so.  Honestly (and they've admitted it) the devs cheated.  They stacked the deck and badly skewed (their term was 'we were a little over the top) the number and nature of abominations and bloodmages IMHO to make you draw this false conclusion (that all mages are this way).  As it is, you are almost certainly condemning all for the actions of a few which isn't even remotely moral or just.

2.  Meredith doesn't care.  She is loony toons.  She doesn't want to kill all the mages because of any bloodmagic or crimes that might have been committed.  Heck the criminal responsible for the destruction of the chantry is right in front of Meredith and she doesn't even care.  She just wants to slaughter all mages.  In fact when you watch her, she almost gets off on the idea (yes sexually).

-Polaris

[Merced652]

Trophonius wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

This last play through I have gone the total A-hole route and did pretty well every despicable thing through out the game but at the end I just couldn't tell Meredith to kill Bethany when you have the choice to stop Meredith or egg her on.  Does she really strike Bethany down if you tell her to?

In fact, she's more the happy to oblige.

Is the murder knife being used there one of Epler's instances of doing something really really neat? 

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

BigBad wrote...

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.

1.  It is virtually certain that not all mages in the Gallows are insane bloodmages.  Indeed (in this case) if your sister is in the circle you KNOW this to be so.  Honestly (and they've admitted it) the devs cheated.  They stacked the deck and badly skewed (their term was 'we were a little over the top) the number and nature of abominations and bloodmages IMHO to make you draw this false conclusion (that all mages are this way).  As it is, you are almost certainly condemning all for the actions of a few which isn't even remotely moral or just.

2.  Meredith doesn't care.  She is loony toons.  She doesn't want to kill all the mages because of any bloodmagic or crimes that might have been committed.  Heck the criminal responsible for the destruction of the chantry is right in front of Meredith and she doesn't even care.  She just wants to slaughter all mages.  In fact when you watch her, she almost gets off on the idea (yes sexually).

-Polaris

Exactly what I believe.  Out of thousands of mages in the Gallows, it's probably only a few hundred at the most are trying to escape the Circle and half of those resort to blood magic.  Among the remaining half that don't use blood magic, about two thirds are killed and the last third successfully escape without using blood magic at least temporarily.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

BigBad wrote...

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.

1.  It is virtually certain that not all mages in the Gallows are insane bloodmages.  Indeed (in this case) if your sister is in the circle you KNOW this to be so.  Honestly (and they've admitted it) the devs cheated.  They stacked the deck and badly skewed (their term was 'we were a little over the top) the number and nature of abominations and bloodmages IMHO to make you draw this false conclusion (that all mages are this way).  As it is, you are almost certainly condemning all for the actions of a few which isn't even remotely moral or just.

2.  Meredith doesn't care.  She is loony toons.  She doesn't want to kill all the mages because of any bloodmagic or crimes that might have been committed.  Heck the criminal responsible for the destruction of the chantry is right in front of Meredith and she doesn't even care.  She just wants to slaughter all mages.  In fact when you watch her, she almost gets off on the idea (yes sexually).

-Polaris

Not to mention she requested the annulment from the divine before Anders actions.. thats concerning enough..
As we discover the Kirkwall Gallows has a thin veil and has an effect on the mages there, plus the whole overcrowding with the facility probably not meant to support such a large number of mages what with Starkhavens circle burnt down.. What I want to know though is why the Resolutionists picked Kirkwall as the location for their revolt? Was it due to Tevinter being located to the north and they wanted to pass power and authority to them? or it being close to cumberland or something?

Its not like its the biggest circle of magi anyway, if they had done the same in Montsimmard's circle it would have much more of an effect i would think, being so close to Val Royeaux and all.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 05 mai 2011 - 04:43 .

[Urazz]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

BigBad wrote...

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.

1.  It is virtually certain that not all mages in the Gallows are insane bloodmages.  Indeed (in this case) if your sister is in the circle you KNOW this to be so.  Honestly (and they've admitted it) the devs cheated.  They stacked the deck and badly skewed (their term was 'we were a little over the top) the number and nature of abominations and bloodmages IMHO to make you draw this false conclusion (that all mages are this way).  As it is, you are almost certainly condemning all for the actions of a few which isn't even remotely moral or just.

2.  Meredith doesn't care.  She is loony toons.  She doesn't want to kill all the mages because of any bloodmagic or crimes that might have been committed.  Heck the criminal responsible for the destruction of the chantry is right in front of Meredith and she doesn't even care.  She just wants to slaughter all mages.  In fact when you watch her, she almost gets off on the idea (yes sexually).

-Polaris

Not to mention she requested the annulment from the divine before Anders actions.. thats concerning enough..
As we discover the Kirkwall Gallows has a thin veil and has an effect on the mages there, plus the whole overcrowding with the facility probably not meant to support such a large number of mages what with Starkhavens circle burnt down.. What I want to know though is why the Resolutionists picked Kirkwall as the location for their revolt? Was it due to Tevinter being located to the north and they wanted to pass power and authority to them? or it being close to cumberland or something?

Its not like its the biggest circle of magi anyway, if they had done the same in Montsimmard's circle it would have much more of an effect i would think, being so close to Val Royeaux and all.

Not only that but the fact that they are being quartered in an old slave prison is bound to affect morale and cause a slightly higher escape attempt rate for mages not even counting the templar's methods driving it up even more.

[Rifneno]

Master Shiori wrote...

It was exactly a city wide emergency. She didn't declare that all Circles across Thedas must be annuled. She ordered a RoA against the Circle she had authority over as Knight-Commander.

Normally, the decision would fall to the Grand Cleric, just as it did in Ferelden when Gregoir had to send word to Denerim about the situation in the Circle Tower and ask for permission to invoke the rite. 
In Kirkwall, thanks to Anders, the Grand Cleric was dead so Meredith had free reign to do whatever she wanted.

By "city wide emergency" I'm assuming you mean all the fighting going on where the mages are defending themselves against murdering templars?  You do know that's a reaction to the RoA, not the Chantry, right? 

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bethany has seen a mage turn into an abomination before - it's not the first time for her.

Was that mage the First Enchanter? Behaviour of person placed high on social ladder is viewed and evaluated quite differently than the rank and file. Again, the common reaction of players to Orsino's behaviour supports it in a way -- how many times when a regular mage turns into an abomination anyone actually gives a damn?

Considering that Bethany addresses that her years in the Kirkwall Circle showed her that mages deserve to be free, while she argues against the senseless murder of men, women, and children for a crime that Anders had committed, and can get murdered herself for it - I don't see how she would reach that conclusion when she is addressing Meredith as "mad" after the Harvester is killed.

Years spent in the Circle has shown Bethany what it's like to be on receiving end of treatment she'd view unfair, and she quite naturally yearns to be free of that. But she rarely if ever gets shown what exactly the people she yearns to be free are capable of -- the more abhorrent cases happen during the time when she's in the Circle. I think she's actually sensitive enough person to maybe take that into consideration. Especially when a person she's been looking up to all that time is there as well, insisting that's the right course of action.

[Plaintiff]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bethany has seen a mage turn into an abomination before - it's not the first time for her.

Was that mage the First Enchanter? Behaviour of person placed high on social ladder is viewed and evaluated quite differently than the rank and file. Again, the common reaction of players to Orsino's behaviour supports it in a way -- how many times when a regular mage turns into an abomination anyone actually gives a damn?

Considering that Bethany addresses that her years in the Kirkwall Circle showed her that mages deserve to be free, while she argues against the senseless murder of men, women, and children for a crime that Anders had committed, and can get murdered herself for it - I don't see how she would reach that conclusion when she is addressing Meredith as "mad" after the Harvester is killed.

Years spent in the Circle has shown Bethany what it's like to be on receiving end of treatment she'd view unfair, and she quite naturally yearns to be free of that. But she rarely if ever gets shown what exactly the people she yearns to be free are capable of -- the more abhorrent cases happen during the time when she's in the Circle. I think she's actually sensitive enough person to maybe take that into consideration. Especially when a person she's been looking up to all that time is there as well, insisting that's the right course of action.

So any reasonable person would willingly submit to execution if a sibling told them to?

[Wulfram]

Given the situation, I wouldn't be surprised if Bethany is pretty close to suicidal at that moment.

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...
So any reasonable person would willingly submit to execution if a sibling told them to?

Hmm.  I can test that theory out if you like, my sister's a ****.  Wait, "reasonable".  Damn.  Nevermind.

[tmp7704]

Plaintiff wrote...

So any reasonable person would willingly submit to execution if a sibling told them to?

I don't know if any. But Bethany's position isn't exactly something that happens commonly in our own world. And being basically told by the very person you idolize that you're a monster in the making and you're best off dead, right when you see what they talk about happen to another person like yourself before your very eyes... that could have tremendous emotional impact, i imagine. Especially on someone as gentle and sensitive as Bethany.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...

SirGladiator,

Based on the codex entries and lore from DAO/DAA, you'd have a point re the legality of the Annulment. I had the same thought. However, in what I still regard as a rather blatent retcon, DG has stepped in and stated that Merideth as KC did have the authority since the grand cleric was dead.

Even so, *prudence* should have dictated that she ask the DIvine anyway since before she declared war on all mages, there wasn't a city-wide emergency. There was a terrorist act and the perpetrator had confessed and was in custody.

-Polaris

Actually, DA2 is a retcon, but in the pro-mage direction. The rite of Annulment in the Code was invoke over ONE bloodmage. One. That killed two templars. Enemies Among Us was enough, by DA:O codex standards, to invoke the Rite.

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Actually, DA2 is a retcon, but in the pro-mage direction. The rite of Annulment in the Code was invoke over ONE bloodmage. One. That killed two templars. Enemies Among Us was enough, by DA:O codex standards, to invoke the Rite.

First of all, that's not what retcon means.  Second of all, that's just more evidence the Chantry needs to burn.

Modifié par Rifneno, 05 mai 2011 - 07:27 .

[Leanansidhe]

Two things I noticed in my last play-through.  They don't really offer anything to the discussion except more evidence that the Kirkwall Circle is pretty much hell on earth for these mages.

When you first get to the Gallows during the prologue, and you're trying out for either the smugglers or the mercs, go up to the big gate leading to the Templar Hall.  You can hear (what I assume to be) a mage screaming, & being whipped.

Also, the Tranquil proprietor right there by that same gate?  Sometimes she'll ask you not to steal things, because then the Templars will whip her.

I managed to side with the Templars in precisely one play-through.  As soon as I was done, I felt dirty and deleted the entire game.

Never again.

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Kirkwall Chantry was attacked by Anders, and instead of focusing on the civilians (like Aveline did when she ordered the guards to look after them) or getting the mages away from the populace, Meredith ordered her army of templars to execute every man, woman, and child with magical ability. The Kirkwall Circle isn't responsible for the actions of a known apostate who was protected by the Champion's reputation, and Meredith doesn't even arrest or execute Anders for what he's done - she ignores his existance for the most part. Anders is even supposed to be able to aid Hawke in killing the mages on the rivalry path.

The scene where Meredith stabs Bethany in the back illustrates what the RoA is about - killing mages regardless of who they are or what they are like, because the Right demands it to be so.

I wasn't debating the morality of Meredith's decision to invoke the Right of Annulment.

Yes, in case of Kirkwall's Circle that wasn't justified (imo), although there was a strong case for a thorough search of the tower and possibly for Orsino's replacement due to him protecting blood mages and hiding forbidden research.

So no, Kirkwall Circle wasn't responsible for Anders' actions, but they were responsible for failing in their duty to train responsible mages who wouldn't fall to temptation of blood magic or forbidden knowledge, as demonstrated by Quentin, Evelina and all those mages who summoned demons during the templars assault.

That said you do have the option of showing mercy to mages who surrender as Cullen himself suggested. As for Bethany, she's one of the few truly innocent mages in the entire game as well as Hawke's sister, so I'm not going to even try and guess what kind of individual would allow Meredith to execute her. 

Also, siding with the templars doesn't mean one has to agree with everything Meredith does, since you have plenty of opportunity to stand up to her even after siding against the mages. 

Modifié par Master Shiori, 05 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[Wulfram]

There's no evidence Evelina used blood magic. She was possessed and became an abomination, which isn't the same thing.

[Rifneno]

SKRemaks wrote...

Two things I noticed in my last play-through.  They don't really offer anything to the discussion except more evidence that the Kirkwall Circle is pretty much hell on earth for these mages.

Don't you love the stuff you notice on later playthroughs?  On my last one, I noticed on Gamlen's Greatest Treasure, when you get the quest update to go to the cave where you finally meet Gamlen's unknown daughter Charade, Hawke says "Time to end this charade."  LOL.  Nice one, devs.

When you first get to the Gallows during the prologue, and you're trying out for either the smugglers or the mercs, go up to the big gate leading to the Templar Hall.  You can hear (what I assume to be) a mage screaming, & being whipped.

Also, the Tranquil proprietor right there by that same gate?  Sometimes she'll ask you not to steal things, because then the Templars will whip her.

I managed to side with the Templars in precisely one play-through.  As soon as I was done, I felt dirty and deleted the entire game.

Never again.

They whip the tranquil because of thieves.  WOW.  Someone remind me why I'm not supposed to want to kill every templar in sight?  I keep forgetting.

[LobselVith8]

BigBad wrote...

Everyone is acting like all the mages in the Gallows are not insane blood mages and/or abominations waiting to happen, when virtually every single mage Hawke meets over the course of a decade (except Bethany; as far as we know, because Merril proves that even the kindest and most good-hearted can be seduced by blood magic) does absolutely nothing but prove the Templars' point for them.

We meet relatively few mages from the Circle of Kirkwall, and we encounter apostates and abominations who have no known ties to the Kirkwall Circle. You can't blame all mages for the actions of the few we encounter; it's no different than thinking all dwarves act like the carta members we encounter.

BigBad wrote...

Honestly, the RoA was just waiting to happen, and Anders only gave Meredith an excuse. And then Orsino went and utterly destroyed any credibility his side may have had with the revelation of his ties to Quentin and turning into a frikken' Harvester.

You mean based on our complete lack of information about the enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall? You seem to be addressing the mage antagonists and claiming that all mages in the Circle of Magi exhibit this behavior when we met relatively few Circle mages, who ranged from the duplicitous enchanter Orsino to the altruistic Circle mage Bethany.

[TobiTobsen]

None of this would be a problem if the Seeker would do their freakin' job. They have to ensure that the templars are guarding the mages. Guard them from demons and the people and the people from the mages. Instead of doing this Leliana, the left hand of the Devine and possibly the highest ranking Seeker, arrives in Kirkwall and spouts anti-mage propaganda. Are you kidding me? Isn't she noticing what enourmus douchebags the Kirkwall templars are? Hasn't she heard the history of Kirkwall?

Do your damn job woman: purge the templar ranks from the corruption and move the circle out of this hellhole full of demonic possession.

[Master Shiori]

Wulfram wrote...

There's no evidence Evelina used blood magic. She was possessed and became an abomination, which isn't the same thing.

The fact she was possessed and turned into an abomination shows she couldn't resist the temptation. Maybe she made a deal with the demon to escape the Circle or simply to protect the children under her care, but in doing so she became a treat to everyone in Kirkwall.

I have sympathy for her plight, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be dealt with to protect the innocent.

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

Also, siding with the templars doesn't mean one has to agree with everything Meredith does, since you have plenty of opportunity to stand up to her even after siding against the mages. 

Wrong.  You have no way of knowing in advance that you will or even intend to save ANY circle mages including your sister.

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

TobiTobsen wrote...

None of this would be a problem if the Seeker would do their freakin' job. They have to ensure that the templars are guarding the mages. Guard them from demons and the people and the people from the mages. Instead of doing this Leliana, the left hand of the Devine and possibly the highest ranking Seeker, arrives in Kirkwall and spouts anti-mage propaganda. Are you kidding me? Isn't she noticing what enourmus douchebags the Kirkwall templars are? Hasn't she heard the history of Kirkwall?

Do your damn job woman: purge the templar ranks from the corruption and move the circle out of this hellhole full of demonic possession.

Except the Circle is now a mix of Blood Mages and innocents and you cannot tell them apart. What's more the mages are spurred on to rebellion by the Resolutionists. Moving them out of Kirkwall wouldn't help since they're not looking for a better Circle. They want to do away with Circles entirely.

Leliana simply warns what will happen if the mages rebel. The Divine will take action against Kirkwall, possibly even declare an Exalted March. Removing Meredith and her croonies would deal with problematic elements within the Templars, but wouldn't do anything for extremists in the ranks of mages themselves.

It's a crappy situation that could only be resolved by both sides going for a peaceful solution, which isn't likely to happen since Orsino and Meredith couldn't say two words to one another without starting an argument.

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Also, siding with the templars doesn't mean one has to agree with everything Meredith does, since you have plenty of opportunity to stand up to her even after siding against the mages. 

Wrong.  You have no way of knowing in advance that you will or even intend to save ANY circle mages including your sister.

-Polaris

Yes you do, since even Cullen started to question Meredith's motives by act 3. When her seond in command is starting to have doubts and practicaly half the templars are either resentful of her or on the verge of open rebellion, you know things are going to come to a head at some point. 

All that is required is for someone who the templars respect to stand up to Meredith and point out that she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order. 

[Rifneno]

Master Shiori wrote...

Yes you do, since even Cullen started to question Meredith's motives by act 3. When her seond in command is starting to have doubts and practicaly half the templars are either resentful of her or on the verge of open rebellion, you know things are going to come to a head at some point. 

All that is required is for someone who the templars respect to stand up to Meredith and point out that she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order. 

And you make the connection between "standing up and pointing out she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order" and "I agree, I'll help you kill them all" how exactly?

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Also, siding with the templars doesn't mean one has to agree with everything Meredith does, since you have plenty of opportunity to stand up to her even after siding against the mages. 

Wrong.  You have no way of knowing in advance that you will or even intend to save ANY circle mages including your sister.

-Polaris

Yes you do, since even Cullen started to question Meredith's motives by act 3. When her seond in command is starting to have doubts and practicaly half the templars are either resentful of her or on the verge of open rebellion, you know things are going to come to a head at some point. 

All that is required is for someone who the templars respect to stand up to Meredith and point out that she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order. 

No you don't.  AT NO TIME does Cullen ever question the legality of the order NOR does he ever rescind it.  What you are talking about is more Bioware dishonesty letting you side with the Templars without having to do all that vile child-slaughter yourself.  This way you can side with Meredith while you dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back for "saving" three mages (and somehow not personally slaughtering children) that will be executed or made tranquil later.

Nice.

-Polaris