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[TobiTobsen]

Master Shiori wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

None of this would be a problem if the Seeker would do their freakin' job. They have to ensure that the templars are guarding the mages. Guard them from demons and the people and the people from the mages. Instead of doing this Leliana, the left hand of the Devine and possibly the highest ranking Seeker, arrives in Kirkwall and spouts anti-mage propaganda. Are you kidding me? Isn't she noticing what enourmus douchebags the Kirkwall templars are? Hasn't she heard the history of Kirkwall?

Do your damn job woman: purge the templar ranks from the corruption and move the circle out of this hellhole full of demonic possession.

Except the Circle is now a mix of Blood Mages and innocents and you cannot tell them apart. What's more the mages are spurred on to rebellion by the Resolutionists. Moving them out of Kirkwall wouldn't help since they're not looking for a better Circle. They want to do away with Circles entirely.

Leliana simply warns what will happen if the mages rebel. The Divine will take action against Kirkwall, possibly even declare an Exalted March. Removing Meredith and her croonies would deal with problematic elements within the Templars, but wouldn't do anything for extremists in the ranks of mages themselves.

It's a crappy situation that could only be resolved by both sides going for a peaceful solution, which isn't likely to happen since Orsino and Meredith couldn't say two words to one another without starting an argument.

The veil in the city has more holes than a sieve and the templars are abusing their power horrendously. Of course there are blood mages! If they would've moved the circle out of Kirkwall and purged the templar ranks the mages wouldn't turn that willingly to blood magic.

If I have a demon at the back of my mind that is constantly whispering to me and templars that are trying to abuse me daily, I will not care if the Devine threatens me with an Exalted March. Let her send her troops. I have better chances at surviving that, than resisting the demons in Kirkwall or evading freaks like Ser Karras or Ser Alrik.

Choosing between those two options isn't a choice at all. A revolution that's getting me out of Kirkwall? Cout me in!

[Master Shiori]

Rifneno wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Yes you do, since even Cullen started to question Meredith's motives by act 3. When her seond in command is starting to have doubts and practicaly half the templars are either resentful of her or on the verge of open rebellion, you know things are going to come to a head at some point. 

All that is required is for someone who the templars respect to stand up to Meredith and point out that she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order. 

And you make the connection between "standing up and pointing out she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order" and "I agree, I'll help you kill them all" how exactly?

Let's look at it this way.

You know that the Divine is watching Kirkwall closely and will take action should the mages successfuly rebel. You also know that templars aren't fully behind Meredith, as evidenced by Cullen's doubts and the amount of templars who join Thrask.

If I support the mages I could doom the entire city to an Exalted March. Hell, even if I win and the mages escape Kirkwall, then what? They're going to be hunted down by the templars or killed by common people for fear of what they could do. Some of them might survive, but most have never been outside the damn tower before, let alone learned how to live in the wider world.

By siding with the templars I'm commiting genocide against a few hundred people but I'm sparing thousands of others. I know that Cullen is having doubts (he even says so before the assault on the Gallows) and I know the templars themselves are divided when it comes to Meredith. I cannot know for certain that I'll get the chance to save the mages from death but I predicted some would surrender and that this is where I can take a stand. 

Sure, it sucks that the total amount of mages spared comes to 3 (4 if you count Bethany) and possibly the non combatants like children (the game never shows them, let alone what happens to them).

So there. A really ****y situation no matter how you look at it, but you take what you can get.

[Bigdoser]

SKRemaks wrote...

Two things I noticed in my last play-through.  They don't really offer anything to the discussion except more evidence that the Kirkwall Circle is pretty much hell on earth for these mages.

When you first get to the Gallows during the prologue, and you're trying out for either the smugglers or the mercs, go up to the big gate leading to the Templar Hall.  You can hear (what I assume to be) a mage screaming, & being whipped.

Also, the Tranquil proprietor right there by that same gate?  Sometimes she'll ask you not to steal things, because then the Templars will whip her.

I managed to side with the Templars in precisely one play-through.  As soon as I was done, I felt dirty and deleted the entire game.

Never again.

Wow I did not know that I got to hear this when I start a new playthrough.

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

No you don't.  AT NO TIME does Cullen ever question the legality of the order NOR does he ever rescind it.  What you are talking about is more Bioware dishonesty letting you side with the Templars without having to do all that vile child-slaughter yourself.  This way you can side with Meredith while you dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back for "saving" three mages (and somehow not personally slaughtering children) that will be executed or made tranquil later.

Nice.

-Polaris

What is there to rescind?!

In case you failed to notice by the time you kill Orsino the Circle no longer exists. The surviving mages have already surrendered and Cullen clearly said that he intends to watch them closely. He wouldn't need to do that if he planned to make them tranquil (if wanted to simply kill them he wouldn't speak out against Meredith's command in the first place..).

Yes, I know what David Gaider said about Annulment. Yet, in case you missed it, he also happens to be the lead writer responsible for giving you the option of sparing mages. If you want to call him dishonest for it go ahead, but I think I'll rather believe what he wrote in the game than question the person responsible for it's lore (of which we don't even know that much). 

[Rifneno]

Master Shiori wrote...

Let's look at it this way.

You know that the Divine is watching Kirkwall closely and will take action should the mages successfuly rebel. You also know that templars aren't fully behind Meredith, as evidenced by Cullen's doubts and the amount of templars who join Thrask.

If I support the mages I could doom the entire city to an Exalted March. Hell, even if I win and the mages escape Kirkwall, then what? They're going to be hunted down by the templars or killed by common people for fear of what they could do. Some of them might survive, but most have never been outside the damn tower before, let alone learned how to live in the wider world.

By siding with the templars I'm commiting genocide against a few hundred people but I'm sparing thousands of others. I know that Cullen is having doubts (he even says so before the assault on the Gallows) and I know the templars themselves are divided when it comes to Meredith. I cannot know for certain that I'll get the chance to save the mages from death but I predicted some would surrender and that this is where I can take a stand. 

Sure, it sucks that the total amount of mages spared comes to 3 (4 if you count Bethany) and possibly the non combatants like children (the game never shows them, let alone what happens to them).

So there. A really ****y situation no matter how you look at it, but you take what you can get.

One big problem with that though is that the great majority of the templars who would rebel against Meredith are dead.  That ****** Grace tricked them into committing Suicide By Way Of Hawke during Best Served Cold.  There was a legitimate rebellion against her forming, and Hawke had to wipe it out because Grace convinced them that Hawke was Meredith's secret cronie.

Stopping an exalted march is the only good reasoning I've heard for supporting the RoA.  But I still view it as bowing to the tyranny of the Chantry.  The Chantry needs to lose its military power, and that'll only happen if people fight back rather than submit.

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

Except the Circle is now a mix of Blood Mages and innocents and you cannot tell them apart.

Hawke encounters a fraction of the Circle mage population, and you seem to be condemning them all on the basis of the many apostates and maleficarum that have no known association with the Kirkwall Circle.

Master Shiori wrote...

What's more the mages are spurred on to rebellion by the Resolutionists.

This is what Leliana thinks, as opposed to what she actually knows for certain. All we see from "Faith" is that there are mages who try to kill her.

Master Shiori wrote...

Moving them out of Kirkwall wouldn't help since they're not looking for a better Circle. They want to do away with Circles entirely.

Some mages (like the Libertarians) don't want to live in a dictatorship, particularly under a religiour organization that condemns mages and preaches that mages are "cursed."

Master Shiori wrote...

Leliana simply warns what will happen if the mages rebel. The Divine will take action against Kirkwall, possibly even declare an Exalted March. Removing Meredith and her croonies would deal with problematic elements within the Templars, but wouldn't do anything for extremists in the ranks of mages themselves.

You mean some mages who don't want to endure another thousand years of oppression?

Master Shiori wrote...

It's a crappy situation that could only be resolved by both sides going for a peaceful solution, which isn't likely to happen since Orsino and Meredith couldn't say two words to one another without starting an argument.

There's no peaceful solution when one side wants freedom and the other side wants to force them into subjugation.

[Master Shiori]

Rifneno wrote...

One big problem with that though is that the great majority of the templars who would rebel against Meredith are dead.  That ****** Grace tricked them into committing Suicide By Way Of Hawke during Best Served Cold.  There was a legitimate rebellion against her forming, and Hawke had to wipe it out because Grace convinced them that Hawke was Meredith's secret cronie.

Stopping an exalted march is the only good reasoning I've heard for supporting the RoA.  But I still view it as bowing to the tyranny of the Chantry.  The Chantry needs to lose its military power, and that'll only happen if people fight back rather than submit.

Actualy no. You can tell Cullen to convince Meredith to show mercy to the surviving mages and templars and she does.
The mages get locked in their cells and the templars are punished by not getting paid for the next 2 months or something. 
Granted, you cannot know how many of them survive your fight with Grace (you only see 3 mages covering in the background and no templars), but some do.

I can understand people wanting to fight the Chantry, but that won't solve the problem. The Chantry didn't create the fear of mages among common people. That fear was there since the time of Tevinter Imperium. Destroying the Chantry won't stop people from killing mage blooded children or persecuting mages.

What mages need is a Circle that acts as a sanctuary and a place of learning, not a prison. They need to be given the chance to prove their worth and become responsible members of society.

The templars need to protect mages just as much as they need to ensure that mages don't fall to temptation of power or demonic possession.

But these things cannot be achieved by war. War will only prove that mages are dangerous and uncontrolable. At best you destroy any form of organized learning in Chantry controlled lands and leave mages at the mercy of demons or ignorant people. At worst you end up with another Imperium where non mages are nothing but fodder for spells.

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

Yes you do, since even Cullen started to question Meredith's motives by act 3. When her seond in command is starting to have doubts and practicaly half the templars are either resentful of her or on the verge of open rebellion, you know things are going to come to a head at some point. 

That doesn't stop the templars from enacting the Right of Annulment.

Master Shiori wrote...

All that is required is for someone who the templars respect to stand up to Meredith and point out that she's no longer acting in the interest of the Order. 

Cullen stops Meredith even if Hawke is killing his way through templars in order to protect enchanters, mages, and apprentices if the Champion doesn't support Meredith's act of genocide.

Master Shiori wrote...

You know that the Divine is watching Kirkwall closely and will take action should the mages successfuly rebel. You also know that templars aren't fully behind Meredith, as evidenced by Cullen's doubts and the amount of templars who join Thrask.

While Cullen spares three mages who surrender, those three could likely be made tranquil, and we know the Right of Annulment was bad enough that it sparked all the Circles of Magi across the continent to rise up and emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the templars, which implies it was likely worse than all the prior Rights of Annulment were to instigate such a reaction.

Master Shiori wrote...

If I support the mages I could doom the entire city to an Exalted March. Hell, even if I win and the mages escape Kirkwall, then what? They're going to be hunted down by the templars or killed by common people for fear of what they could do. Some of them might survive, but most have never been outside the damn tower before, let alone learned how to live in the wider world.

I'd rather give the mages a chance at living a life in freedom than dying at the behest of a morally bankrupt and mentally unstable Knight-Commander who wants to shove her sword of mercy through Bethany's back. For those who don't make it, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Ryzaki]

Bigdoser wrote...

SKRemaks wrote...

Two things I noticed in my last play-through.  They don't really offer anything to the discussion except more evidence that the Kirkwall Circle is pretty much hell on earth for these mages.

When you first get to the Gallows during the prologue, and you're trying out for either the smugglers or the mercs, go up to the big gate leading to the Templar Hall.  You can hear (what I assume to be) a mage screaming, & being whipped.

Also, the Tranquil proprietor right there by that same gate?  Sometimes she'll ask you not to steal things, because then the Templars will whip her.

I managed to side with the Templars in precisely one play-through.  As soon as I was done, I felt dirty and deleted the entire game.

Never again.

Wow I did not know that I got to hear this when I start a new playthrough.

I heard screaming but I didn't know someone was being whipped. 

Though I think in act 1 one mage girl begs you not to talk to her because if the templars see that she'll be given 30 lashes. 

That said I still side wth the Templars. Meredth and Elthina's idiocy allowed such corruption to go unchecked and at the end of the Templar ending those two idiots are dead. 

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke encounters a fraction of the Circle mage population, and you seem to be condemning them all on the basis of the many apostates and maleficarum that have no known association with the Kirkwall Circle.

I don't know if they have any association with the Circle. What I do know from talking to Thrask and Anders is that mages are routinely fleeing the Circle and some are actively working against it. It's not far fetched to guess some of those blood mages might have been part of the Circle at some point. 
There is certainly no shortage of blood mages present when you assault the Gallows and those are part of the Circle.

LobselVith8 wrote...



This is what Leliana thinks, as opposed to what she actually knows for certain. All we see from "Faith" is that there are mages who try to kill her.

Considering Leliana is a bard whose talent is information gathering, I'd say she knows what she's talking about. 

LobselVith8 wrote...



Some mages (like the Libertarians) don't want to live in a dictatorship, particularly under a religiour organization that condemns mages and preaches that mages are "cursed."

And I can symphatise with that. 

But war won't help in this matter. You need a reform and an agreement between both sides, not a slaughter.

LobselVith8 wrote...



You mean some mages who don't want to endure another thousand years of oppression?

As I said above war doesn't help. 

Once the word is out that the Circles are no longer under Chantry control, people will panic. Mages won't just be hunted by templars but by common people as well. And as much as mages may clamour for freedom, they never present a long term plan for what would happen once the Circles are gone. 
Where would they learn to master their powers? Who would protect them from fear and ignorance of others? Who would deal with those who become possessed or desire power over others?

The Chantry needs to change it's outlook on magic and how the Circle functions, but that can only be achieved by compromise.

LobselVith8 wrote...



There's no peaceful solution when one side wants freedom and the other side wants to force them into subjugation.

If both sides are unwilling to compromise, the yes. I believe there are reasonable people within the Chantry who understand that things need to change, as well as there being mages who see that war won't acomplish anything but a whole lot of senseless death and destruction.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 05 mai 2011 - 10:05 .

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...
If both sides are unwilling to compromise, the yes. I believe there are reasonable people within the Chantry who understand that things need to change, as well as there being mages who see that war won't acomplish anything but but a whole lot of senseless death and destruction.

I don't think there are.  Not now.  The chantry has proven that it's unwilling to give up an iota of it's institutional power for a thousand years.  The mages have realized that they have nothing left to lose.

Until that dynamic changes, Anders is right. No compromise is possible.

What's more, as for wars not solving anything, I remind you of what Heinlein said in Starship Troopers:  Raw Violence has solved more problems than any other methode in human history...and by a wide mark (the last is my addition).

As the bloodmage in DAO put it, "Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in.  Andraste overthrew an empire, freed the slaves, gave us the Chantry, but people DIED for it.  She didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter."

That bloodmage is dead right.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...

But these things cannot be achieved by war. War will only prove that mages are dangerous and uncontrolable. At best you destroy any form of organized learning in Chantry controlled lands and leave mages at the mercy of demons or ignorant people. At worst you end up with another Imperium where non mages are nothing but fodder for spells.

Wrong.  War (as Heinlein reminds us) has solved more issues than any other method in human history.  War is the only sure way to break the Chantry's religious stranglehold on power esp magical power.  Furthermore, when people have been indoctrinated against you for a thousand years and now the Chantry's lap-dogs (the Templars) are going to kill you no matter what (which is certainly the lesson of Kirkwall) and the Chantry will not do anything to stop them, then war is your only choice.

Believe me, when the Qunari come knocking (and they will), the secular rulers and secular nobility will be more than willing to deal with the 'free' mages....Chantry and Templars be damned.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke encounters a fraction of the Circle mage population, and you seem to be condemning them all on the basis of the many apostates and maleficarum that have no known association with the Kirkwall Circle.[/quote]

I don't know if they have any association with the Circle. What I do know from talking to Thrask and Anders is that mages are routinely fleeing the Circle and some are actively working against it. It's not far fetched to guess some of those blood mages might have been part of the Circle at some point. 
There is certainly no shortage of blood mages present when you assault the Gallows and those are part of the Circle. [/quote]

Mages are fleeing an enviornment where Ser Alrik is making mages illegally tranquil and is taking advantage of them, and where Ser Alrik is raping at least one mage. Given what others have said about hearing mages who are screaming and discussing how they are beaten, I can see why mages would want to leave this monstrous enviornment.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

This is what Leliana thinks, as opposed to what she actually knows for certain. All we see from "Faith" is that there are mages who try to kill her.
[/quote]

Considering Leliana is a bard whose talent is information gathering, I'd say she knows what she's talking about.  [/quote]

All she did is assume that the Resolutions are responsible for mages wanting to be free from a dictatorship because this faction made an attempt on her life. Given the kind of toxic environment that Circle mages are forced to endure in Kirkwall, I don't see why she made this assumption.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Some mages (like the Libertarians) don't want to live in a dictatorship, particularly under a religiour organization that condemns mages and preaches that mages are "cursed." [/quote]

And I can symphatise with that. 

But war won't help in this matter. You need a reform and an agreement between both sides, not a slaughter. [/quote]

I don't see why the mages should try to reason with the Chantry or the templars because the last time they protested their lack of rights in a nonviolent fashion, Divine Ambrosia II contemplated an Exalted March against the protestors and the Chantry imprisoned the mages in Circle Towers for the rest of their lives - and centuries later, we have the modern day mages forced to live out their days in Circle Towers.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean some mages who don't want to endure another thousand years of oppression? [/quote]

As I said above war doesn't help. [/quote]

Andraste and Shartan would disagree.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

Once the word is out that the Circles are no longer under Chantry control, people will panic. Mages won't just be hunted by templars but by common people as well. And as much as mages may clamour for freedom, they never present a long term plan for what would happen once the Circles are gone. 
Where would they learn to master their powers? Who would protect them from fear and ignorance of others? Who would deal with those who become possessed or desire power over others?

The Chantry needs to change it's outlook on magic and how the Circle functions, but that can only be achieved by compromise. [/quote]

There's no compromise when the Chantry and the templars want mages under their rule. You can't compromise with a dictatorship.

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no peaceful solution when one side wants freedom and the other side wants to force them into subjugation.[/quote]

If both sides are unwilling to compromise, the yes. I believe there are reasonable people within the Chantry who understand that things need to change, as well as there being mages who see that war won't acomplish anything but but a whole lot of senseless death and destruction. [/quote]

You can't compromise with people who think it's their divine right to rule over you.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can't compromise with people who think it's their divine right to rule over you.

...and don't think you are actually "real" people.  Don't forget that little detail.

-Polaris

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't stop the templars from enacting the Right of Annulment.

No, because the only person who can stop Meredith from invoking the right got an express ride to the Maker's side, courtesy of Anders.

LobselVith8 wrote...



Cullen stops Meredith even if Hawke is killing his way through templars in order to protect enchanters, mages, and apprentices if the Champion doesn't support Meredith's act of genocide.

No. Cullen takes a stand when Meredith order templars to kill Hawke. He only stops Meredith if you side with the templars and ask for his opinion on what to do with those mages who surrendered. 
That's where you can see that the templars don't truly support her, since they all follow your lead and Cullen's orders.

LobselVith8 wrote...



While Cullen spares three mages who surrender, those three could likely be made tranquil, and we know the Right of Annulment was bad enough that it sparked all the Circles of Magi across the continent to rise up and emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the templars, which implies it was likely worse than all the prior Rights of Annulment were to instigate such a reaction.

Making a mage tranquil means he is no longer in danger of possession. Cullen says he plans to watch the mages closely for any sign of corruption, which he wouldn't need to do if they were going to be made tranquil or killed.

The reason Circles rose up was because the RoA was invoked against a Circle which wasn't lost to demonic possession. It showed that Kirkwall's templars were no longer obeying the rules and that made them fear for their own lives.

LobselVith8 wrote...



I'd rather give the mages a chance at living a life in freedom than dying at the behest of a morally bankrupt and mentally unstable Knight-Commander who wants to shove her sword of mercy through Bethany's back. For those who don't make it, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

There's no "freedom" or "life" for them. They're almost certainly dead.

Even Hawke grew up on the run, never being able to settle in one place for long. There's no freedom in living like a hunted animal.

That's what Anders never understood. He saw that the Chantry and Circle were unjust, but he never presented an alternative other than death. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

On the question of war. I don't mind it on principle. But if the mages want to wage a successful war, then it's one that also has to be waged in the minds and hearts of people. Mages cannot win (or establish something new) on their own without popular support (something that Anders is seemingly oblivious to).

If they can't amass popular support, no short and long term solution would be possible. Scaring people now, I'd think, is not a good way to get that popular support.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mai 2011 - 10:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Master Shiori wrote...
The reason Circles rose up was because the RoA was invoked against a Circle which wasn't lost to demonic possession. It showed that Kirkwall's templars were no longer obeying the rules and that made them fear for their own lives.

False.  The Fereldan case was actually an exception.  Read the codex on the Right of Annulment, and you'll find that most annulments (certainly the first one) are much more like the one in Kirkwall.  The difference this time, is you had a KC and Templar that grossly abused their role (and ignored the rules) for YEARS and finally wiped out the circle and the Chantry never did anything about it. 

Given the choice of revolt or die, it's not a hard choice.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On the question of war. I don't mind it on principle. But if the mages want to wage a successful war, then it's one that also has to be waged in the minds and hearts of people. Mages cannot win (or establish something new) on their own without popular support (something that Anders is seemingly oblivious to).

If they can't amass popular support, no short and long term solution would be possible. Scaring people now, I'd think, is not a good way to get that popular support.

In today's world, I'd agree.  I'll even agree that Anders was fundamentally an idiot.  However, when the choice once Anders is done is revolt or die, you revolt and try to make the best of a bad situation.

In the World of Thedas, I think popular support is a lot less important, and it's not like the Templars GAINED much support really.  The people I think that are ultimately going to matter are the secular nobility and they've been looking to put the Chantry in it's place for a long, long time.  The mage's position in the upcoming war is not nearly as hopeless as you might think because of it.  [Also the Templars breaking from the Chantry was a dumb move on the Templar's part because they no longer have the Maker to hide behind for popular support.]

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
In the World of Thedas, I think popular support is a lot less important, and it's not like the Templars GAINED much support really.  The people I think that are ultimately going to matter are the secular nobility and they've been looking to put the Chantry in it's place for a long, long time.  The mage's position in the upcoming war is not nearly as hopeless as you might think because of it.  [Also the Templars breaking from the Chantry was a dumb move on the Templar's part because they no longer have the Maker to hide behind for popular support.]

-Polaris

If Kirkwall showed us anything, is that a major pillar of the Templar's power is popular support. When the people of Kirkwall started spitting on Templars and secretly helped the mage underground, the Templars were at their weakest and no amount of heavy handedness from Meredith was going to compensate for it.

I'd agree, that your average joe farmer and peasant is not going to be that relevent. But I think people of urban centers are important, specifically the middle class that can at least provide help for any long term project. I agree that the nobility is also crucial. 

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't stop the templars from enacting the Right of Annulment.

No, because the only person who can stop Meredith from invoking the right got an express ride to the Maker's side, courtesy of Anders.

I didn't mention Meredith, I mentioned the templars who were "following orders."

Master Shiori wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Cullen stops Meredith even if Hawke is killing his way through templars in order to protect enchanters, mages, and apprentices if the Champion doesn't support Meredith's act of genocide.

No. Cullen takes a stand when Meredith order templars to kill Hawke. He only stops Meredith if you side with the templars and ask for his opinion on what to do with those mages who surrendered. 
That's where you can see that the templars don't truly support her, since they all follow your lead and Cullen's orders.

If Hawke is killing templars, why would Cullen have a problem with killing Hawke? Cullen didn't stop Meredith when she ordered men, women, and children to be killed for an act that Anders alone is responsible for.

Master Shiori wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Cullen spares three mages who surrender, those three could likely be made tranquil, and we know the Right of Annulment was bad enough that it sparked all the Circles of Magi across the continent to rise up and emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the templars, which implies it was likely worse than all the prior Rights of Annulment were to instigate such a reaction.

Making a mage tranquil means he is no longer in danger of possession. Cullen says he plans to watch the mages closely for any sign of corruption, which he wouldn't need to do if they were going to be made tranquil or killed.

The reason Circles rose up was because the RoA was invoked against a Circle which wasn't lost to demonic possession. It showed that Kirkwall's templars were no longer obeying the rules and that made them fear for their own lives.

That doesn't mean he isn't going to make them tranquil, and he's shown no objection to the "Tranquil Solution" if Hawke brings it up to him. Regaridng your line, Cullen could be talking about the time while the mages are under arrest as the Right of Annulment is going on. I don't see why the Circles of Magi would rise up in revolution if this particular Right of Annulment wasn't as bad as the several prior Rights of Annulment were.

Master Shiori wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd rather give the mages a chance at living a life in freedom than dying at the behest of a morally bankrupt and mentally unstable Knight-Commander who wants to shove her sword of mercy through Bethany's back. For those who don't make it, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

There's no "freedom" or "life" for them. They're almost certainly dead.

There's freedom for a few mages who Hawke helps: Ella, Emile, Terrie.  Varric even addresses in the pro-mage ending that, unlike the templar ending, there were many survivors of the Right of Annulment, and "many lived to tell the tale."

Master Shiori wrote...

Even Hawke grew up on the run, never being able to settle in one place for long. There's no freedom in living like a hunted animal.

That's what Anders never understood. He saw that the Chantry and Circle were unjust, but he never presented an alternative other than death. 

Anders wanted to see mages afforded the same rights as everyone else, he says as much to Aveline if he's spared. I imagine he wanted the same as Hawke's ancestor Parthalan, who helped King Calenhad build the nation of Ferelden: to see mages achieve equality.

[Master Shiori]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think there are.  Not now.  

You're looking at them at the end of DA2: Cassandra, Leliana and the Seekers.

IanPolaris wrote...



The chantry has proven that it's unwilling to give up an iota of it's institutional power for a thousand years.  The mages have realized that they have nothing left to lose.

Sure they do. They can die, which is exactly what will happen if the war is not stopped. You're not looking at the templars vs mages. You're looking at all the countries who follow the Chantry going to war against several hundred people who have no central leadership and almost no experience at wagging war. Take a guess how that one will end.

IanPolaris wrote...


As the bloodmage in DAO put it, "Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in.  Andraste overthrew an empire, freed the slaves, gave us the Chantry, but people DIED for it.  She didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter."

That bloodmage is dead right.

-Polaris

He's dead wrong.

Andraste lead an opressed majority against a tyranical minority. She had the numbers on her side and mobilized the people against a common threat, which is magic.

Chantry might be a tyrant to the mages, but to common people it takes care of widows and orphans, feeds the poor and offers salvation to their souls. They have no reason to rise against it, especialy when they too see the mages as potential danger against which the templars protect them.
They don't care what happens inside the Circles as long as they themselves are safe. A mage revolt will only prove that Chantry is right about magic.

As for th Qunari. You need a critical mass of mages to have a chance of stopping them. With a formal organization such as the Circle you know where to find them and can mobilize them in time. That's not possible if the mages are free and scattered all over the place, asuming they'd even want to help.

[LobselVith8]

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't think there are.  Not now.  

You're looking at them at the end of DA2: Cassandra, Leliana and the Seekers.

Leliana never states her opinion, and we have no idea how many other Seekers agree with Cassandra's attempt to end the war before it begins. We have Cassandra addressing that "not all of us desire war" but we never hear how she proposes to stop the war. Does she want Hawke to convince the mages to surrender? Does she want everything to go back to the way it was when the Chantry ruled over the mages? Does she want to compromise? We have no idea, and I wish the writers stopped making everything so vague and addressed the issues.

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The chantry has proven that it's unwilling to give up an iota of it's institutional power for a thousand years.  The mages have realized that they have nothing left to lose.

Sure they do. They can die, which is exactly what will happen if the war is not stopped. You're not looking at the templars vs mages. You're looking at all the countries who follow the Chantry going to war against several hundred people who have no central leadership and almost no experience at wagging war. Take a guess how that one will end.

King Alistair is harboring apostates and arguing for the Magi boon (for The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden). If the templars left the Chantry to hunt the mages, we have no idea who might be backing them. Meredith did rule an entire city-state as the dictator for years, after all. The templars could die because of this war, and we have no idea if they have a sufificent amount of lyrium to last through a war since they voluntarily left the Chantry (who are in control of the lyrium trade). The Circle mages are likely capable. Brother Genitivi thought the Circle of Magi was the greatest advantage that the Chantry lead forces had in the New Exalted Marches. Perhaps the mages will win the war and defeat the Order of Templars.

Master Shiori wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As the bloodmage in DAO put it, "Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in.  Andraste overthrew an empire, freed the slaves, gave us the Chantry, but people DIED for it.  She didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter."

That bloodmage is dead right.

-Polaris

He's dead wrong.

The blood mage was a she, not a he.

Master Shiori wrote...

Andraste lead an opressed majority against a tyranical minority. She had the numbers on her side and mobilized the people against a common threat, which is magic.

You're making assumptions in regards to the numbers, Andraste and Shartan fought to free their people from the Magisters of the Imperium, and we know that "The Search for the True Prophet" claims that Andraste was actually a mage.

Master Shiori wrote...

Chantry might be a tyrant to the mages, but to common people it takes care of widows and orphans, feeds the poor and offers salvation to their souls. They have no reason to rise against it, especialy when they too see the mages as potential danger against which the templars protect them.

Some drug barons have also fed the poor and provided churches for people, it doesn't justify their actions; in fact, the Chantry provides lyrium to the templars, which makes them highly addicted.

Master Shiori wrote...

They don't care what happens inside the Circles as long as they themselves are safe. A mage revolt will only prove that Chantry is right about magic.

And doing nothing will only provide another thousand years of mages living in subjugation to the Chantry. Hoping that a dictatorship will be amenable to reason is unreasonable.

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't mention Meredith, I mentioned the templars who were "following orders."

Those weren't present when the Chantry was destroyed and Meredith invoked the RoA. They didn't see what happened first hand and could only obey orders from those in charge. It took Cullen openly defying Meredith's orders for others to turn against her.

Master Shiori wrote...

If Hawke is killing templars, why would Cullen have a problem with killing Hawke? 

Because Hawke, mage or not, is the second most important person in Kirkwall, who is loved by its people. Killing him/her out of hand could cause the population to rise in revolt against the templars, even if that same population didn't really care about murdered mages and their plight.

That's why both Meredith and Orsino are desperate to have you on their side. Because you are the leader Kirkwall respects and trusts.

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't mean he isn't going to make them tranquil, and he's shown no objection to the "Tranquil Solution" if Hawke brings it up to him. Regaridng your line, Cullen could be talking about the time while the mages are under arrest as the Right of Annulment is going on. I don't see why the Circles of Magi would rise up in revolution if this particular Right of Annulment wasn't as bad as the several prior Rights of Annulment were.

Cullen says that most mages would rather die than be made tranquil. Also, being made tranquil means you are no longer a danger. Therefore, there's no need for Cullen and templars to watch over tranquil or fear they might be blood mages.

As for the RoA, it was invoked against a Circle that wasn't lost to demonic possession. Furthermore, it requires the agreement of Knight Commander and Grand Cleric  that the Circle is beyond salvation before it can be invoked. 

Meredith did so on her own initiative, against the Circle that still had dozens of mages who were entirely innocent. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's freedom for a few mages who Hawke helps: Ella, Emile, Terrie.  Varric even addresses in the pro-mage ending that, unlike the templar ending, there were many survivors of the Right of Annulment, and "many lived to tell the tale."

How long they lived is up to debate. Certainly past the RoA and what followed it, but after that it's anyone's guess whether or not they were hunted down or escaped to relative safety.

LobselVith8 wrote...


  

Anders wanted to see mages afforded the same rights as everyone else, he says as much to Aveline if he's spared. I imagine he wanted the same as Hawke's ancestor Parthalan, who helped King Calenhad build the nation of Ferelden: to see mages achieve equality.

I don't have issues with his motives. It's his methods that I find unacceptable.

Killing the most beloved priest in the city isn't going to help mages or make people more understanding of their plight.

[Rifneno]

Master Shiori wrote...

Killing the most beloved priest in the city isn't going to help mages or make people more understanding of their plight.

Elthina ranks up there with Alrik and Danarius as characters most deserving of death in the game.  She's basically the most powerful person in the city.  The templars control the Viscount, and the Chantry controls the templars.  But no matter what happens, Elthina refuses to keep order and justice.  Whether it's templars tranquilling mages for no good reason or Petrice and Varnell using her seal to commit racist hate crimes against the qunari, she just sits back and lets everything happen and expects a deity that her own religion says has abandoned them come in and magically fix everything.  If I had the option, I'd have assassinated her myself in Act II when she handwaved any and all damning evidence brought to her.

[TJPags]

So, Meredith kills Bethany?

Cool, interesting topic. Yes, yes she really will do it.

/topic