243 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You don't know either.  But you insist you're right.

*shrug* 

But he's not advocating the death of anyone based on that ignorance.

Just the Templars he kills while defending the mages.

Because the templars are going to murder all the mages otherwise.

Some of us feel that's justified and warranted.

Personally, I see it as executing criminals.

Considering that Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry in front of Knight-Commander Meredith, First Enchanter Orsino, Hawke and his companions, and openly confessed, Anders is guilty. However, Meredith makes it clear she's ordering the execution of countless men, women, and children of the Circle of Magi for an act Anders alone has committed, so what are the enchanters, mages, and apprentices guilty of exactly?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Some of us feel that's justified and warranted.

Personally, I see it as executing criminals.

So if a very dangerous terrorist who is rumored to have a suitcase nuke is in the area, and the only thing you knnow is that he or she has green eyes, then it is justified and warrented to round up all people in the city and EXECUTE  THEM without trial because they have green eyes.

Nice.  When you remove all the fru-fru, that's what you are saying.

-Polaris

Your analogies are so over the top insanely absurd they make me laugh.

You don't want to admit that you are advocating mass murder for everyonee in a group based on what a few MIGHT do.  That's the fundamental moral issue.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry in front of Knight-Commander Meredith, First Enchanter Orsino, Hawke and his companions, and openly confessed, Anders is guilty. However, Meredith makes it clear she's ordering the execution of countless men, women, and children of the Circle of Magi for an act Anders alone has committed, so what are the enchanters, mages, and apprentices guilty of exactly?

They are mages.  In Kirkwall that's a capital offense.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You don't know either.  But you insist you're right.

*shrug* 

But he's not advocating the death of anyone based on that ignorance.

Just the Templars he kills while defending the mages.

Because the templars are going to murder all the mages otherwise.

Some of us feel that's justified and warranted.

Personally, I see it as executing criminals.

Considering that Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry in front of Knight-Commander Meredith, First Enchanter Orsino, Hawke and his companions, and openly confessed, Anders is guilty. However, Meredith makes it clear she's ordering the execution of countless men, women, and children of the Circle of Magi for an act Anders alone has committed, so what are the enchanters, mages, and apprentices guilty of exactly?

Lob, you know full well my opinion is, and always has been, that the Kirkwall Circle is corrupt and needs to be Anulled, regardless of what Anders did.  Anders act is not, in my mind, the reason to Anull the Circle.  It's the act that gives Meredith the authority to do what she has - rightly, in my mind - wanted to do for years.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Some of us feel that's justified and warranted.

Personally, I see it as executing criminals.

So if a very dangerous terrorist who is rumored to have a suitcase nuke is in the area, and the only thing you knnow is that he or she has green eyes, then it is justified and warrented to round up all people in the city and EXECUTE  THEM without trial because they have green eyes.

Nice.  When you remove all the fru-fru, that's what you are saying.

-Polaris

Your analogies are so over the top insanely absurd they make me laugh.

You don't want to admit that you are advocating mass murder for everyonee in a group based on what a few MIGHT do.  That's the fundamental moral issue.

-Polaris

1.  I advocate nothing.  Unlike you, I don't care what people do in their game.  I defend my choice and my opinion, nothing more.

2.  I have no problem admitting that I am murdering everyone in the Gallows.

3.  It's not a "few" in my mind.  In the game I played - maybe you played a different one - I ran into a crap-ton more blood mages and abominations than I did "innocent" mages.  Even those mages I tried to defend - remember, I did, in fact, side with the mages in the game I completed - used blood magic, turned into abominations, or in Orsino's case, a Harvester, and attacked ME.  Not the Templars, but my Hawke and my group.

4.  Since just about every mage I see - with the exception of Emile, Bethany, and Ella - turns out to be a blood mage, and even Emile and Bethany are criminals (Emile snuck out of the Circle, which is a crime, and Bethany was an apostate for many years, also a crime) I feel justified in assuming that virtually every mage in Kirkwall is a blood mage.  And hey look what happens when I'm IN the gallows, defending mages - they turn out to be using blood magic!!!!

5.  You go on and on about genocide, and your speculated hundreds of mages we never see, and how the devs "stacked the deck" that you ignore the evidence in front of your face.  Which is your choice in your game. 

It's not my choice in my game.  You want to call that murder?  Have fun.

[Xilizhra]

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

[TJPags]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

By this logic, shouldn't you do so as well? 

I enjoy discussing this with people who want to share views, and discuss game evidence, and do so rationally.

[lobi]

Kirkwall is a bad place for mages to be anyway, enigma of kirkwall + final vengeful strike, not just sundermount was accursed.

[thesuperdarkone]

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

By this logic, shouldn't you do so as well? 

I enjoy discussing this with people who want to share views, and discuss game evidence, and do so rationally.

 

So you support the Templars killing innocent non mages for the crime of being related to apostates when they KNOW those apostates are dead if you side with Meredith in Act 3. Good to know you support killing people the Templars aren't even supposed to do just for being related to someone else since you're Templars have no problem with this.

[TJPags]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

By this logic, shouldn't you do so as well? 

I enjoy discussing this with people who want to share views, and discuss game evidence, and do so rationally.

 

So you support the Templars killing innocent non mages for the crime of being related to apostates when they KNOW those apostates are dead if you side with Meredith in Act 3. Good to know you support killing people the Templars aren't even supposed to do just for being related to someone else since you're Templars have no problem with this.

I have no idea what you're referring to.  Perhaps you can enlighten me?  Because I don't remember any non-mages in the Gallows during the end game.

Understand, clearly - I do not defend the abuses of the Templars, and yes, there are abuses.  I have no idea what I may have said to make you think that, unless you're just trying to distort things in an effort to make people who side with the Templars feel bad or something.

However, if you'd like to clarify your statement, I'd be happy to discuss it further.  As it is, I simply have no idea what you're referring to.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Lob, you know full well my opinion is, and always has been, that the Kirkwall Circle is corrupt and needs to be Anulled, regardless of what Anders did.  Anders act is not, in my mind, the reason to Anull the Circle.  It's the act that gives Meredith the authority to do what she has - rightly, in my mind - wanted to do for years.

Meredith makes it clear it's the reason she's invoking the Right of Annulment when she tries to persuade Hawke to side with her. If her argument was that the Circle of Kirkwall was corrupt, why not use this argument? Wouldn't it be more compelling than an act of violence that the Circle mages had nothing to do with? I've seen plenty of the pro-templar side argue that the Circle is corrupt, but I still think we lack sufficient information to make any genuine determination about their guilt or innocence in regards to blood magic. Hawke encounters many apostates and abominations outside of the Gallows, and his exposure to Circle mages outside of the Gallows is limited - it's either insane mages like Huon or abominations like Evelina, or mages who are caught up in bad situations like the child Ella and the childish Emile.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Lob, you know full well my opinion is, and always has been, that the Kirkwall Circle is corrupt and needs to be Anulled, regardless of what Anders did.  Anders act is not, in my mind, the reason to Anull the Circle.  It's the act that gives Meredith the authority to do what she has - rightly, in my mind - wanted to do for years.

Meredith makes it clear it's the reason she's invoking the Right of Annulment when she tries to persuade Hawke to side with her. If her argument was that the Circle of Kirkwall was corrupt, why not use this argument? Wouldn't it be more compelling than an act of violence that the Circle mages had nothing to do with? I've seen plenty of the pro-templar side argue that the Circle is corrupt, but I still think we lack sufficient information to make any genuine determination about their guilt or innocence in regards to blood magic. Hawke encounters many apostates and abominations outside of the Gallows, and his exposure to Circle mages outside of the Gallows is limited - it's either insane mages like Huon or abominations like Evelina, or mages who are caught up in bad situations like the child Ella and the childish Emile.

Well, let me address two things.

First, I agree, she SHOULD have said "Okay, I'm in charge now, let's Anull the Circle" instead of using Anders as an excuse.  If she had done that, frankly, I'd have sided with her in my game. 

It was because she used the Anders act as her excuse - while simultaneously doing nothing about Anders himself, who was just sitting on his crate there - that I chose to side with the mages.  Probably more because she was doing nothing about Anders than that she used the excuse, but that factored in as well.

But, as I've said before, she didn't need an excuse.  Not at that point.  She needed to justify it, at that time, to nnobody but herself.  My boss can fire me for no reason at all.  He doesn't need one.  He can give one, but he doesn't need to.  Giving one can sometimes be trouble, legally speaking.  That's kind of what Meredith did here - not in a legal sense, but in a "what the hell is wrong with her?" sense, for me.

The second thing I want to address is kind of an aside - I wouldn't call Ella a child.  I kind of think she's about Bethany's age.  And Bethany isn't a child.  Also, Emile, while childish, was only in a bad situation because he did it to himself.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

The second thing I want to address is kind of an aside - I wouldn't call Ella a child.  I kind of think she's about Bethany's age.  And Bethany isn't a child.  Also, Emile, while childish, was only in a bad situation because he did it to himself.

I said it because Bethany refers to Ella as a child in her letter in Act II:

Dear Hawke,

I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.

With love,
Bethany

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The second thing I want to address is kind of an aside - I wouldn't call Ella a child.  I kind of think she's about Bethany's age.  And Bethany isn't a child.  Also, Emile, while childish, was only in a bad situation because he did it to himself.

I said it because Bethany refers to Ella as a child in her letter in Act II:

Dear Hawke,

I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.

With love,
Bethany

Hmm.  Okay, maybe she is a child, in Act 1 anyway.  fair enough.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Hmm.  Okay, maybe she is a child, in Act 1 anyway.  fair enough.

I agree that Ella doesn't look like a child, but given that Anders can kill her, I think that's on purpose.

[thesuperdarkone]

TJPags wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

By this logic, shouldn't you do so as well? 

I enjoy discussing this with people who want to share views, and discuss game evidence, and do so rationally.

 

So you support the Templars killing innocent non mages for the crime of being related to apostates when they KNOW those apostates are dead if you side with Meredith in Act 3. Good to know you support killing people the Templars aren't even supposed to do just for being related to someone else since you're Templars have no problem with this.

I have no idea what you're referring to.  Perhaps you can enlighten me?  Because I don't remember any non-mages in the Gallows during the end game.

Understand, clearly - I do not defend the abuses of the Templars, and yes, there are abuses.  I have no idea what I may have said to make you think that, unless you're just trying to distort things in an effort to make people who side with the Templars feel bad or something.

However, if you'd like to clarify your statement, I'd be happy to discuss it further.  As it is, I simply have no idea what you're referring to.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_Last_Holdouts 

During this quest, the Templars are perfectly willing to kill the non-mage relatives of the apostates they just killed just for being related to them.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hmm.  Okay, maybe she is a child, in Act 1 anyway.  fair enough.

I agree that Ella doesn't look like a child, but given that Anders can kill her, I think that's on purpose.

And that Alrik makes a thinly veiled threat to make her a sex slave zombie.  FOX News would have a field day with that.

[TJPags]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not my choice in my game. You want to call that murder? Have fun.

And so we shall continue to do so. Logically, wouldn't it be best for you to return to your own game without responding?

By this logic, shouldn't you do so as well? 

I enjoy discussing this with people who want to share views, and discuss game evidence, and do so rationally.

 

So you support the Templars killing innocent non mages for the crime of being related to apostates when they KNOW those apostates are dead if you side with Meredith in Act 3. Good to know you support killing people the Templars aren't even supposed to do just for being related to someone else since you're Templars have no problem with this.

I have no idea what you're referring to.  Perhaps you can enlighten me?  Because I don't remember any non-mages in the Gallows during the end game.

Understand, clearly - I do not defend the abuses of the Templars, and yes, there are abuses.  I have no idea what I may have said to make you think that, unless you're just trying to distort things in an effort to make people who side with the Templars feel bad or something.

However, if you'd like to clarify your statement, I'd be happy to discuss it further.  As it is, I simply have no idea what you're referring to.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_Last_Holdouts 

During this quest, the Templars are perfectly willing to kill the non-mage relatives of the apostates they just killed just for being related to them.

Thanks for clarifying.  Since I apparently didn't side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3, I didn't get this quest.  I've heard of it, and now read the Wiki.

First - this is not at all what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the end game, where you Anull the Circle or defend the mages.  That is what I'm talking about.  As I said before, I do not in any way condone the abuse of mages by Templars.  I also don't "support Templars".  I support the choice to Anull the Kirkwall Circle.  Different things.

Second - did you do this quest?  Or even read the Wiki?

Head towards Darktown and head into the Sanctuary and kill off all the Blood Mages in the area. You don't have to read all the letters lying around to continue the mission. Once they're all killed off head back towards your Estate and read the letter from Ser Mettin. Head towards Sundermount Caverns, where you'll have to fight some Shades and Shadow Warriors. In Sundermount Caverns you'll find Her Song from Pile Of Bones and an Orichalcum deposit. Go into the Graveyard, head towards the Marker where the Blood Mage Refuge hideout will be. Ser  Mettin and Ser Agatha will assist you in killing off the blood mages in this area. Mettin will then wish to kill the others assisting the mages there as well, which Agatha disagrees to. You have the option whether to allow Mettin to continue or fight him, if you decide to stop him templars will arrive and you'll have to fight Mettin with the aid of Agatha and several templars, this fight finishes the quest.

They're blood mages.  Blood magic is illegal.  Thus, they are criminals.  If they are apostates, that's 2 criminal acts.  If they escaped the Gallows, that's also a criminal act.

Mettin wants to kill the families.  Agatha says no.  So there's a Templar NOT doing what you claimed.  If you side with Agatha, several templars help you.  So there's some more.  From the Wiki, you have as many Templars opposing that choice to kill the families as supporting it.  I'll add it IS criminal to assist an apostate or escaped mage.

However, I would not support killing the families.

So there's my clarification.

[Master Shiori]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The templars chose of their own volition to obey the orders to kill every enchanter, mage, and apprentice from the Kirkwall Circle.

As is their duty when a Circle is judged to be beyond salvation, which is when the RoA is invoked. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke isn't a leader, he's recognized as the Champion. However, while I can see why Cullen would prevent a pro-templar Hawke from getting killed by Meredith, I don't see why Cullen would it being "out of hand" for a pro-mage Hawke who is killing templars to protect the mages from them.

Point, missing it.

Hawke is the closest to a leader Kirkwall has at that moment. He may not officialy be a viscount but he has the respect of nobles, commoners and the city guard. People trust him because of his actions against the Qunari. Meredith rules because she is the commander of the largest armed force in the city, not because the people choose her to be their ruler.

It doesn't matter if Meredith kills a bunch of mages who most people don't really care about, but killing the person who saved the entire city could result in an uproar by the general population.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the templars are keeping the templars in custody and not killing them, then they have to watch over them during this time - it doesn't mean the mages aren't going to be made tranquil. Gaider addressed this as a possibility for mages who aren't killed in Rights of Annulment, and Cullen didn't seem to have an issue with tranquility when he is shown Alrik's papers (and Hawke even accuses him of supporting the measure).

Because tranquility isn't illegal by itself. It is only used as the last resort to avoid killing the mage who crossed the line. 
The fact Ser Alrik abused it doesn't mean all templars follow his example. Hell, Bethany even tells you in her letter that most templars are decent men and women who only do their duty. They don't even shed a tear when Alrik is killed. Alrik's solution was turned down by both Meredith and the Grand Cleric so neither of them believed turning mages tranquil by default is justified.

LobselVith8 wrote...



The Circle of Ferelden can be annulled even if the abominations are all put down and there are plenty of mages who aren't corrupt and innocent, which means that the Circle wasn't lost to demonic possession, but it didn't spark a revolution among the mages across the continent. If Cullen is the moderate that you seem to think he is, I don't see the mages rising up if he's sparing mages and putting an end to the Right of Annulment. I don't see the mages rising up if the Right of Annulment at Kirkwall wasn't as bad, if not worse, than the previous ones that were enacted.

Circle in Ferelden was under assault by the demons, who had driven out the templars and were either killing mages or possessing them.
Gregoir invokes the RoA once he's lost all control over the Circle, and revokes it once the Warden has made the tower safe again. 
By Cullen's own words a large number of mages who survived were saved and were neither made tranquil nor killed.

In case of Kirkwall the RoA has run it's course and by the time Hawke fights Meredith the mages have either fled, are dead or have been taken captive. 
The RoA in Kirkwall was unjustified. There was a strong case for replacing Orsino and searching the tower to root out blood mages, but not for destroying the whole circle.

LobselVith8 wrote...

At least they are given the opportunity.

I'd say they just postponed the innevitable, but whatever.

[Dave of Canada]

I let Meredith kill Bethany on my pro-Templar Hawke where she was sent to the Circle.

Now I'll be called a monster by the usual people, I suspect.

[Master Shiori]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I let Meredith kill Bethany on my pro-Templar Hawke where she was sent to the Circle.

Now I'll be called a monster by the usual people, I suspect.

Nah, you'll be called a monster for daring to side with the templars. Killing Bethany was just the icing on the cake. 

[GodWood]

I think the scene could have been far more dramatic.
Still liked it though

[Dave of Canada]

Master Shiori wrote...

Nah, you'll be called a monster for daring to side with the templars.

Oh okay, the usual.

Killing Bethany was just the icing on the cake. 

Yay icing.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I let Meredith kill Bethany on my pro-Templar Hawke where she was sent to the Circle.

Now I'll be called a monster by the usual people, I suspect.

No need.  To quote Fenris: "You are a monster"

-Polaris

[GodWood]

I swear Polaris has to be the most dedicated troll I've ever seen