305 réponses à ce sujet

[Supernallaw]

I had originally not had a problem with the dialogue wheel in mass effect and DA2 but after starting to play DA:O, I realized how inferior it really is.  There are a couple reasons I believe this.  In DA:O, the list of dialogue choices allowed me to pick the sentence I would like to actually say.  The results would be sometimes clear, but often I would not know ahead of time what the responses would be.  Many times, the dialogue options would not simply go into an obvious "right or wrong" pattern but would flesh out to build character personalities.  The difference when using a dialogue wheel is quite obvious because all options are either inquisitive to uncover information or have a good/neutral/evil alignment.  In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  This is much less enjoyable, in my opinion, compared to actually reading the options and selecting the response I would actually want to say in my character's situation.

However, even if I wanted to play DA2 and ME like DA:O by choosing a response I liked, it would not be possible because all the dialogue options are simplified to 1-3 word descriptions.  Sometimes these are accurate summaries, but MANY times I would choose a dialogue option and then be baffled about what my character was actually saying.  The dialogue wheel makes the choices more confusing, and forces alignment to be either good/neutral/evil whereas the dialogue options allowed for much more complex character development.

To give a brief example of this without spoiling parts of DA:O, in Alistair's character quest to meet someone, he is greeted strangely by the person and the player is allowed to choose a way to respond.  None of these responses could be properly labeled with an alignment because the situation is complex and there is no way to plan Alistair's reactions to your response choice.  This is an example of how much more complex the dialogue options can be without the dialogue wheel and it is times like these that I appreciate not being forced to use one and only select dialogue based on its orientation on the wheel.

Modifié par Supernallaw, 03 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[erynnar]

Great points. And I agree with you.

[NightmarezAbound]

Those are in the game if you know what you're looking at. That specific situation with Alistair would just be the quest option, ie the 3 crooked arrows, would represent your choices. and depending on how you chose to speak to him, can harden him etc etc.

[Soulcheg]

Supernallaw wrote...

I had originally not had a problem with the dialogue wheel in mass effect and DA2 but after starting to play DA:O, I realized how inferior it really is.  There are a couple reasons I believe this.  In DA:O, the list of dialogue choices allowed me to pick the sentence I would like to actually say.  The results would be sometimes clear, but often I would not know ahead of time what the responses would be.  Many times, the dialogue options would not simply go into an obvious "right or wrong" pattern but would flesh out to build character personalities.  The difference when using a dialogue wheel is quite obvious because all options are either inquisitive to uncover information or have a good/neutral/evil alignment.  In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  This is much less enjoyable, in my opinion, compared to actually reading the options and selecting the response I would actually want to say in my character's situation.

However, even if I wanted to play DA2 and ME like DA:O by choosing a response I liked, it would not be possible because all the dialogue options are simplified to 1-3 word descriptions.  Sometimes these are accurate summaries, but MANY times I would choose a dialogue option and then be baffled about what my character was actually saying.  The dialogue wheel makes the choices more confusing, and forces alignment to be either good/neutral/evil whereas the dialogue options allowed for much more complex character development.

To give a brief example of this without spoiling parts of DA:O, in Alistair's character quest to meet someone, he is greeted strangely by the person and the player is allowed to choose a way to respond.  None of these responses could be properly labeled with an alignment because the situation is complex and there is no way to plan Alistair's reactions to your response choice.  This is an example of how much more complex the dialogue options can be without the dialogue wheel and it is times like these that I appreciate not being forced to use one and only select dialogue based on its orientation on the wheel.

^

This.

[MrProliferation]

I think a lot of the problem is more labeling and that the wheel isn't fully utilized. I would've appreciated more "star" responses depending on what you've done in the past, and more branches through "investigate," as well as clearer labeling of what it was you were going to say or do. I actually like the wheel more than the straight-up menu from DAO, but I do feel like the full capacity and capability of the wheel was not fully utilized and could be improved upon.

[Lord Gremlin]

Supernallaw wrote...

I had originally not had a problem with the dialogue wheel in mass effect and DA2 but after starting to play DA:O, I realized how inferior it really is.  There are a couple reasons I believe this.  In DA:O, the list of dialogue choices allowed me to pick the sentence I would like to actually say.  The results would be sometimes clear, but often I would not know ahead of time what the responses would be.  Many times, the dialogue options would not simply go into an obvious "right or wrong" pattern but would flesh out to build character personalities.  The difference when using a dialogue wheel is quite obvious because all options are either inquisitive to uncover information or have a good/neutral/evil alignment.  In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  This is much less enjoyable, in my opinion, compared to actually reading the options and selecting the response I would actually want to say in my character's situation.

However, even if I wanted to play DA2 and ME like DA:O by choosing a response I liked, it would not be possible because all the dialogue options are simplified to 1-3 word descriptions.  Sometimes these are accurate summaries, but MANY times I would choose a dialogue option and then be baffled about what my character was actually saying.  The dialogue wheel makes the choices more confusing, and forces alignment to be either good/neutral/evil whereas the dialogue options allowed for much more complex character development.

To give a brief example of this without spoiling parts of DA:O, in Alistair's character quest to meet someone, he is greeted strangely by the person and the player is allowed to choose a way to respond.  None of these responses could be properly labeled with an alignment because the situation is complex and there is no way to plan Alistair's reactions to your response choice.  This is an example of how much more complex the dialogue options can be without the dialogue wheel and it is times like these that I appreciate not being forced to use one and only select dialogue based on its orientation on the wheel.

My thoughts exactly. However, I've played DAO first, so it was obvious to me that DA2 will simply be worse in that department.

[BomimoDK]

It's kinda countering the whole "Dragon Age is a more realistic, Not black/white universe" doesn't it. The damn wheel, i mean. Not so many gray shades now, are there! I admit that i've discovered that the Wheel is damn fine for Mass Effect, for which it was designed in the first place and which games Roleplay is designed around Black/white morals. It does NOT fit for Dragon Age since, in order to utilize this wheel, they've essentially done away with any gray shades of morality and we're stuck with ****, Clown and Savior which we then can freely criss-cross between. When they first advertised this, they mentioned 5 or so dialogue types and i imagined they'd utilize them all for us to roleplay more characters, but most of them are just for special situations and that's not counting the other 3 symbols for investigating, ending convo and being horny. I Sincerely hope that we get to see the good old dialogue system back. Voices or no, at least give us the good olde list.

[Zanallen]

The only real critique of the dialogue wheel is the paraphrasing. I've never had much of a problem with it myself, but I can understand how others may have. Of course, there were similar issues with DA:O's system and there are a number of people who picked certain responses only to realize that the intent of the response was completely different than how they read it in their head.

Functionally, the wheel works exactly like menu in DA:O. The vast majority of the conversations would have a good response, a neutral response and an evil response along with investigation choices. In the wheel, the investigation choices are placed in a separate section to avoid clutter, leaving you with the good, neutral and evil choices.

As for the Alistair example above, if I recall it correctly, there was a good response, an evil response and a neutral response so I fail to see how it differs.

[Rockpopple]

Nope.

By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together.

Because a system like DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work with a VO protagonist. It's called redundancy.

So if you wanna get rid of the VO protag, that's your opinion. I strongly disagree with that, but that's cool. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a DA:O style of dialogue box and have a VO'd protagonist without it being a waste of time/effort.

[Kilshrek]

The wheel makes for more cinematic gaming. Bioware has been pro cinematic gaming for... I dunno... ages. The wheel is here to stay, like it or not. And just so it's out there, I lean only slightly towards the menu. The wheel in DA 2 worked much better than in ME because of the intent icons, but the problem is the intent icons made it sort of a "hold-your-hand" gaming experience.

edit : @ Rockpopple, The Witcher did it, but they were just some obscure dev who could afford the redundancy I guess. Of course there is the argument on the necessity of a VA for DAO-like games where your protagonist could be anyone or anything, but that's another matter.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 03 mai 2011 - 05:20 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Voiced protagonist must remain. It's not 1980 any more, where text is acceptable in a game. Having BioWare doods and doodettes writing dialogue, getting it recorded, getting it put together, tra la la la la, is going to take more time than Gaider and crew plopping dialogue into text files. Give then choice between time spent cranking out eight choices of silent dialogue and three to six choices of spoken dialogue, I choose spoken each and every time.

More cinematic, more entertaining, more fun to play.

[Rockpopple]

@ Kilshrek - I've seen the dialogue system for TW2. It's basically a paraphrase system - like the dialogue wheel except with no wheel. They must have figured out that saying the same thing twice in two different formats was a ginormous waste of time saying the same thing twice in two different formats was a ginormous waste of time.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 03 mai 2011 - 05:28 .

[Lord Nikon 001]

Ditto...
As for a voiced character, It's nice, but it's like icing on a cake.
I don't need a bowl of icing without anything to put it on. I'd rather have a nice 3 layer cake with all my friends coming over to enjoy it... baloons, presents... ooops. Sorry. Got carried away.

[Sussurus]

Myself while I can say there are things I hated , even directed at the dialogue wheel itself to be frank.

The not knowing what Hawke was exactly going to say was not one of them.
I honestly liked picking a choice of overall tone in the hopes of getting a reaction out of an npc.

Only to find out that they find my humour insulting, or take it as honest sincerity.
Or that being nice and noble makes them angry for looking down at them.
Or getting angry prevokes a reaction that tempers their disgust of you as weak willed.

Really I can say if I had three written and exact dialogue sentences in front of me.
It would feel like the obvious choice was given in a basket to me.
 The short this is what you mean, but not what it comes out as, felt like I was not always going to get what I wanted.

However I dislike that it is only three icons, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon spectrum, than just one of each for every conversation.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 05:47 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sussurus wrote...

I honestly liked picking a choice of overall tone in the hopes of getting a reaction out of an npc.

This.  I looooved the icon at the middle of the wheel.

[Zanallen]

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

[UnholyMouse]

I quite agree with the OP

There are much better ways to do VA and have more interesting choice like Origins had, the Dialog Wheel was not one of them.

[erynnar]

Lord Nikon 001 wrote...

Ditto...
As for a voiced character, It's nice, but it's like icing on a cake.
I don't need a bowl of icing without anything to put it on. I'd rather have a nice 3 layer cake with all my friends coming over to enjoy it... baloons, presents... ooops. Sorry. Got carried away.

This^

[Sussurus]

Zanallen wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

Yes sorry I meant two or more in each conversation wheel, not that there were not more than one in total...

Say have one red, two purple, or two red three blue, one purple...
Pretty much just increase, vary and not have the same red, purple, blue every time you talk to someone.
It'd add more choice and just because one purple may help you, does not mean the other will.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 05:43 .

[Rockpopple]

Zanallen wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

Yup. The 2nd set of icons don't influence Hawke's personality, just his actions. So the one that looks like a purple gem is a "charm" action that can be done by any personality Hawke to various degrees of success. The same with the blue and red options too.

The system is deeper than it gets a lot of credit for. The problem with the system is that it might be too complicated for some folks to grasp it fully, yet at the same time it works so well it seems too simple. 

[Zanallen]

Sussurus wrote...
Yes sorry I meant two or more in each conversation wheel, not that there were not more than one in total...

Say have one red, two purple, or two red three blue, one purple...
Pretty much just increase, vary and not have the same red, purple, blue every time you talk to someone.
It'd add more choice and just because one purple may help you, does not mean the other will.

That would be interesting. They could have made use of the two slots on the left side more often.

[Sanunes]

My issue with the wheel is the same as in Mass Effect, what I am saying is not what I thought I was going to say. I don't mind the idea behind the wheel, but more of what I will actually be saying would be greatly appreciated. After seeing the evolution between Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, I think it will only get better for the graphic was nice to show the intent in behind what was being said, the actually wording is still needed to be expanded upon.

I really didn't like the wall'o'text in Dragon Age: Origins because I found it hard to read because of how the text was presented, generally I found it small or blurry and missed the intent of what my choices were.

[Sussurus]

Yes the major issues peole have with the system seem to be.
1. Not knowing what Hawke says due to shortened sometimes unrelated writting.
2. That it is only three colour coded choices in general.
3. That there is not more choice.

As I've said I like the not knowing part, as even here I don't always know what I say is going to taken as what I meant.

2. The colour code adds something to basic actions and general attitude to Hawke,.
I'm not sure I like this as much as I could as it leads to odd situations where a character can do something in a cutscene that you really would not or could not do if you were them.

3. Honestly more options and varied ones is the one thing that I believe people miss most about the texted dialogue.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[erynnar]

Rockpopple wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

Yup. The 2nd set of icons don't influence Hawke's personality, just his actions. So the one that looks like a purple gem is a "charm" action that can be done by any personality Hawke to various degrees of success. The same with the blue and red options too.

The system is deeper than it gets a lot of credit for. The problem with the system is that it might be too complicated for some folks to grasp it fully, yet at the same time it works so well it seems too simple. 

You know, I have to laugh, here we go with the too complex for folks to grasp.  It's so subtly meta and obtuse that most of us are just too dumb to get it.  Yeah, not really. It is simple...it simply doesn't make that much difference what you choose.

Hubby has done two play throughs, I have almost done two, and really didn't notice that much difference. Hubby got one dialogue option for a convo I never got, an aggressive one only. And I got one he didn't that was diplmatic. The slight differences in my Hawke's statements in cinematics are interesting, but not all that mind blowing in their differences. And the reactions of the people is pretty much the same and a given.

I would love more complex, but I am not getting it. I got more complex from DAO when peole would react in a way I was not expecting. DA2, they all pretty much reacted the same way except for a raised eyebrow, a sterner comment, or a giggle before moving on to the quest and how it had to play out.