305 réponses à ce sujet

[Sussurus]

That really has more to do with the poorer handling of consequenses.
In DA:O most still had two or three paths, but were wider reaching and lead to further actions and consequences..
Which added to the game and offered more options and new paths.

The change from written, out in the open dialogue to wheel would have had no change.
DA:2 you are streamlined into small focused paths with no - little variation.
Not from the wheel but story design and forced narrative with a single conculsion.

Put the wheel in DA:O then it may actually have earned more support.
Put written dialogue in DA:2 it may have lost it via association.

Edit typos: concerening DA:2, DA:O.. gah.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[Rockpopple]

erynnar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

Yup. The 2nd set of icons don't influence Hawke's personality, just his actions. So the one that looks like a purple gem is a "charm" action that can be done by any personality Hawke to various degrees of success. The same with the blue and red options too.

The system is deeper than it gets a lot of credit for. The problem with the system is that it might be too complicated for some folks to grasp it fully, yet at the same time it works so well it seems too simple. 

You know, I have to laugh, here we go with the too complex for folks to grasp.  It's so subtly meta and obtuse that most of us are just too dumb to get it.  Yeah, not really. It is simple...it simply doesn't make that much difference what you choose.

Hubby has done two play throughs, I have almost done two, and really didn't notice that much difference. Hubby got one dialogue option for a convo I never got, an aggressive one only. And I got one he didn't that was diplmatic. The slight differences in my Hawke's statements in cinematics are interesting, but not all that mind blowing in their differences. And the reactions of the people is pretty much the same and a given.

I would love more complex, but I am not getting it. I got more complex from DAO when peole would react in a way I was not expecting. DA2, they all pretty much reacted the same way except for a raised eyebrow, a sterner comment, or a giggle before moving on to the quest and how it had to play out.

Thing is, I never actually called anyone "dumb", nor was that my intent.

I'm not here to talk about what individuals find are more complex or not. I'll say that while you found Origins' dialogue more complex, I found it less complex than that of DA II. Different strokes for different folks.

But the fact is, the way some people talk about the dialogue wheel in this game, it's a clear fact that they do not understand how it works. Was I talking about you or your husband? That would be a negatory, good buddy!

People gotta stop taking things personally. Believe me, if I wanna talk about someone specifically, they'll know.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 03 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[Zem_]

Sussurus wrote...
3. Honestly more options and varied ones is the one thing that I believe people miss most about the texted dialogue.

I think it's an illusion personally.  I think you could go back to DAO and probably tag each line with a DA2 icon and discover there was in fact, not more choice.  It just looked that way because you had this wall of text.  They still boiled down to investigate, diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive, etc.

[Raelis27]

I completely agree with the OP.

[Riknas]

I'm sorry, just as I did not agree with adding the dialogue wheel in the first place, neither do I see a reason to remove it. Both are valid.

[Sussurus]

Zem_ wrote...

Sussurus wrote...
3. Honestly more options and varied ones is the one thing that I believe people miss most about the texted dialogue.

I think it's an illusion personally.  I think you could go back to DAO and probably tag each line with a DA2 icon and discover there was in fact, not more choice.  It just looked that way because you had this wall of text.  They still boiled down to investigate, diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive, etc.

I love that.. "it's an illusion".
All I could think was someone stranded in a desert dying of thirst shuffling sand into their mouths thinking it an icecream.
Only for someone to come along and offer them plain water bursting the mirage.
It would explain a lot of reactions in life I think.

Thanks for making me smile over a mental image, it's been awhile... cheers.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 06:22 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Rockpopple wrote...

Nope.

By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together.

Because a system like DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work with a VO protagonist. It's called redundancy.

So if you wanna get rid of the VO protag, that's your opinion. I strongly disagree with that, but that's cool. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a DA:O style of dialogue box and have a VO'd protagonist without it being a waste of time/effort.

Nope, glad to see you bought into their bull**** excuse of why they changed it but in reality they could add VO for each extra choice (line of dialogue) that DAO had. ALL NPCs in DAO were voiced in DA2 they merely added 2 *extra* VOs. It is not a storage limitation many games use multiple discs and BluRay could fit a dozen or more time the size of DA2 on one disc. There is zero real reason why VO could not be added to DAO main protaganists, they just decided that they wanted in DAO to have silent because more immersive for people who play RPGs in a first person style as opposed to a third person like Mass Effect and now DA2.

You may be fooled but a lot of us know that all your argument (one they fed you) is nothing more than smoke and mirrors in order to save development time, such results regarding saving time has had the biggest backlash of all and I suggest they don't use such methods in future simply because each time will have a large negative reaction. Take there time get it right and stop skipping corners and in the end the product will be better recieved. The  whole VO argument is fallacy it could of been done and given time done well even with DAO dialogue system.

It was nothing to do with technical or issue of if would work. It was a simple design choice.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 06:35 .

[MorrigansLove]

They should just do it the witcher way.

[fchopin]

I would be willing to pay Bioware money if they removed the dialogue will, say £10.

This is not a joke.

[Rockpopple]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Nope.

By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together.

Because a system like DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work with a VO protagonist. It's called redundancy.

So if you wanna get rid of the VO protag, that's your opinion. I strongly disagree with that, but that's cool. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a DA:O style of dialogue box and have a VO'd protagonist without it being a waste of time/effort.

Nope, glad to see you bought into their bull**** excuse of why they changed it but in reality they could add VO for each extra choice (line of dialogue) that DAO had. ALL NPCs in DAO were voiced in DA2 they merely added 2 *extra* VOs. It is not a storage limitation many games use multiple discs and BluRay could fit a dozen or more time the size of DA2 on one disc. There is zero real reason why VO could not be added to DAO main protaganists, they just decided that they wanted in DAO to have silent because more immersive for people who play RPGs in a first person style as opposed to a third person like Mass Effect and now DA2.

You may be fooled but a lot of us know that all your argument (one they fed you) is nothing more than smoke and mirrors in order to save development time, such results regarding saving time has had the biggest backlash of all and I suggest they don't use such methods in future simply because each time will have a large negative reaction. Take there time get it right and stop skipping corners and in the end the product will be better recieved. The  whole VO argument is fallacy it could of been done and given time done well even with DAO dialogue system.

It was nothing to do with technical or issue of if would work. It was a simple design choice.

Point. Missed it. Ah well.

I never said it was a technical issue. I'll give you a moment for that to sink in.

...

Finished getting it?

I said doing it this way - Fully writing out what Hawke is about to say, then having Hawke saying that exact same line - is redundant.

Boy is your face red.

Next time take the time to actually read what someone's written before going in guns blazing. Only takes a few extra moments of your time.

[element eater]

id much rather have no dialogue wheel but if they do stick with it (which i'm sure they will) i think they could definately take steps to improve it

[Dragoonlordz]

Rockpopple wrote...

Boy is your face red.

Next time take the time to actually read what someone's written before going in guns blazing. Only takes a few extra moments of your time.

Tooting you own trumpet way too early there kid.

By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together. Because a system like DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work with a VO protagonist. It's called redundancy.

Is wrong, stupid and nieve.

You can't have a DA:O style of dialogue box and have a VO'd protagonist without it being a waste of time/effort.

Your wrong again it is not a waste of time when the dialogue system from DAO people liked and some also liked the VO from DA2, it is not a waste to combine the two aspects. A few more hours in a recording studio and more time on cinamatics is not a waste of time.

Apply your own words to yourself before reply...

Point. Missed it. Ah well.

I'll give you a moment for that to sink in.
...
Finished getting it?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Rockpopple]

@ Dragoonlordz (ROFL)

I see you've not-so-expertly pivoted from your original argument:

"THERE'S NO TECHNICAL RESTRICTION PREVENTING IT DERP!"

to your new argument:

"Uh.... uh well it's naive" - that's how it's spelt, by the way - "and you're dumb for not wanting it. Derp."

You know you're in trouble when you start calling your opponent a "kid" in a pathetic attempt to elevate yourself.

Well.... keep reaching for that rainbow.

[MorrigansLove]

Double rainbow all the way!

[Dragoonlordz]

Rockpopple wrote...

@ Dragoonlordz (ROFL)

I see you've not-so-expertly pivoted from your original argument:

"THERE'S NO TECHNICAL RESTRICTION PREVENTING IT DERP!"

to your new argument:

"Uh.... uh well it's naive" - that's how it's spelt, by the way - "and you're dumb for not wanting it. Derp."

You know you're in trouble when you start calling your opponent a "kid" in a pathetic attempt to elevate yourself.

Well.... keep reaching for that rainbow.

My original post contained a multiple of points not only technical... Learn to read. No matter how many times you say 'derp' the only effect it is having is making yourself look very stupid. If you wish to attack me for typos, might I suggest you check your grammar and spelling

Rockie wrote...
 DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work

Dialogue.. See? Two can play that game.

Thank god you don't work for Bioware...

"Oh you know those things you like in the games... Well I cba to implement them because it's a waste of my time."

Atleast in my reply to your comment I explained the why and why not of my reasoning, your reply relied on simple spelling mistakes and nothing constructive other than 'derp' comments.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mai 2011 - 07:12 .

[Cyberarmy]

İt is really a deep and well forged system that create unimagiable amounts of consequences and outcomes while changing our gameplay as a WHOLE. İ mean who doesn't want to ask a dragon-shape-shifting lady about how to become a dragon. Hot stuff.

Pheeew that was hard ...

[DancesWithScions]

Screw whomever invented the wheel....jokes aside, you guys kinda summed it up. I wish they would go for some kind of compromise,find a way to make the spoken line/s clearer or at least less good/bad oriented. Hell I'd even agree for an illusion of moral diversion. Ignorance is a bliss. unfortunately pasimism has consumed me and I think that this new dialogue interaction is here to stay, without many changes to be implented.

[Nerdage]

Neither system was perfect, but I'd suggest that if you were just going straight for the aggressive option in DA2, there's no reason you wouldn't have been doing so in DAO too. If you're just relying on the tone icon to decide what to say that's your fault (and your loss, I'd be surprised if fewer than 1/3 of the choices I picked were outside my dominant personality), so where you reading through all the options in DAO and then just picking the most aggressive by default? It amounts to the same thing. The fact that you used to have to read the options to discern their tone didn't really give you more choice than you have now.

Personally, I had cases of accidentally saying things I didn't mean to in both games, but at least in DA2 I knew the tone of the line, if not its specific intention, so I wouldn't pick an option thinking it was a joke and get a slap in the face from the other guy.

[astreqwerty]

Supernallaw wrote...

I had originally not had a problem with the dialogue wheel in mass effect and DA2 but after starting to play DA:O, I realized how inferior it really is.  There are a couple reasons I believe this.  In DA:O, the list of dialogue choices allowed me to pick the sentence I would like to actually say.  The results would be sometimes clear, but often I would not know ahead of time what the responses would be.  Many times, the dialogue options would not simply go into an obvious "right or wrong" pattern but would flesh out to build character personalities.  The difference when using a dialogue wheel is quite obvious because all options are either inquisitive to uncover information or have a good/neutral/evil alignment.  In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  This is much less enjoyable, in my opinion, compared to actually reading the options and selecting the response I would actually want to say in my character's situation.

However, even if I wanted to play DA2 and ME like DA:O by choosing a response I liked, it would not be possible because all the dialogue options are simplified to 1-3 word descriptions.  Sometimes these are accurate summaries, but MANY times I would choose a dialogue option and then be baffled about what my character was actually saying.  The dialogue wheel makes the choices more confusing, and forces alignment to be either good/neutral/evil whereas the dialogue options allowed for much more complex character development.

To give a brief example of this without spoiling parts of DA:O, in Alistair's character quest to meet someone, he is greeted strangely by the person and the player is allowed to choose a way to respond.  None of these responses could be properly labeled with an alignment because the situation is complex and there is no way to plan Alistair's reactions to your response choice.  This is an example of how much more complex the dialogue options can be without the dialogue wheel and it is times like these that I appreciate not being forced to use one and only select dialogue based on its orientation on the wheel.

its not going to happen..as much as i love the old system the developers will stick with this ****ing wheel for sure though your right in every way in your post

Modifié par astreqwerty, 03 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[erynnar]

Rockpopple wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

However I dislike that it is only three icon, and the exact three each time.
Myself I'd have liked 6 -7 choices ranging across the red - purple - blue icon picks, than just one of each for every conversation.

Technicaly, there were multiple icons. I think 2 blue, 2 purple, 2 red, an attack icon, a flirt icon, a heartbreak icon, investigate and those action arrows.

Yup. The 2nd set of icons don't influence Hawke's personality, just his actions. So the one that looks like a purple gem is a "charm" action that can be done by any personality Hawke to various degrees of success. The same with the blue and red options too.

The system is deeper than it gets a lot of credit for. The problem with the system is that it might be too complicated for some folks to grasp it fully, yet at the same time it works so well it seems too simple. 

You know, I have to laugh, here we go with the too complex for folks to grasp.  It's so subtly meta and obtuse that most of us are just too dumb to get it.  Yeah, not really. It is simple...it simply doesn't make that much difference what you choose.

Hubby has done two play throughs, I have almost done two, and really didn't notice that much difference. Hubby got one dialogue option for a convo I never got, an aggressive one only. And I got one he didn't that was diplmatic. The slight differences in my Hawke's statements in cinematics are interesting, but not all that mind blowing in their differences. And the reactions of the people is pretty much the same and a given.

I would love more complex, but I am not getting it. I got more complex from DAO when peole would react in a way I was not expecting. DA2, they all pretty much reacted the same way except for a raised eyebrow, a sterner comment, or a giggle before moving on to the quest and how it had to play out.

Thing is, I never actually called anyone "dumb", nor was that my intent.

I'm not here to talk about what individuals find are more complex or not. I'll say that while you found Origins' dialogue more complex, I found it less complex than that of DA II. Different strokes for different folks.

But the fact is, the way some people talk about the dialogue wheel in this game, it's a clear fact that they do not understand how it works. Was I talking about you or your husband? That would be a negatory, good buddy!

People gotta stop taking things personally. Believe me, if I wanna talk about someone specifically, they'll know.

Well I did wonder, you've never been one to call anybody dumb. So I was more confused than anything. Which some may argue is not hard to do...oh wait..I iz dum:crying:. I kid. But I gotcha Rock. *HUGS*

I think the wheel could be better, a mix maybe. And make the wheel fit the medieval feel of DA rather than the sci fi. I really want to know what my Hawke is saying not some stupid paraphrase.

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Nope.

By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together.

Because a system like DA:O where the dialgoue is written out in full wouldn't work with a VO protagonist. It's called redundancy.

So if you wanna get rid of the VO protag, that's your opinion. I strongly disagree with that, but that's cool. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a DA:O style of dialogue box and have a VO'd protagonist without it being a waste of time/effort.

Nope, glad to see you bought into their bull**** excuse of why they changed it but in reality they could add VO for each extra choice (line of dialogue) that DAO had. ALL NPCs in DAO were voiced in DA2 they merely added 2 *extra* VOs. It is not a storage limitation many games use multiple discs and BluRay could fit a dozen or more time the size of DA2 on one disc. There is zero real reason why VO could not be added to DAO main protaganists, they just decided that they wanted in DAO to have silent because more immersive for people who play RPGs in a first person style as opposed to a third person like Mass Effect and now DA2.

You may be fooled but a lot of us know that all your argument (one they fed you) is nothing more than smoke and mirrors in order to save development time, such results regarding saving time has had the biggest backlash of all and I suggest they don't use such methods in future simply because each time will have a large negative reaction. Take there time get it right and stop skipping corners and in the end the product will be better recieved. The  whole VO argument is fallacy it could of been done and given time done well even with DAO dialogue system.

It was nothing to do with technical or issue of if would work. It was a simple design choice.

This^ and *points to Dragoon's sig line*

[Sussurus]

Point of interest, how could implementing a new dialogue system.
Adding VO across the board of characters, then having different dialogue topics set up based on some viables diminish developement time?

Good / bad a new system takes time / effort and resources to set up.
The number dialogue topic selection was in place already, and would have saved time.
So you could say they skimped on developement time in general and I would supporrt you.
However on the wheel not so much, that is connecting two issues and going emotional rather than rational.

As for immersion.. that's for bathing.
Different people immerse in different ways, and use it often to mean other things as a rallying cry.
How about saying what the VO / wheel is, an idea that got implemented due to being new and vaugely unique.
Was it done well? to many including myself not fully, to many others badly.
Saying anything more is really just banner waving for some cause that shifts in the breeze.

Edit: why do people use learn to read?
I had someone a while back every post.. LRN 2 read, no matter what was said or addressed.
LRN 2 read, it's one thing having a different view.
 Another to be childish, diplomacy at its best.

Modifié par Sussurus, 03 mai 2011 - 09:11 .

[Persephone]

I remember David Gaider saying that maybe a "Hover your mouse over the paraphrase to reveal the whole sentence(s)" option could be a solution for those who don't like the paraphrases. I'd like to see that implemented. Otherwise I'm fine with DAII's dialogue system/wheel.

[mousestalker]

I'd like to see a dialogue pentagram. Do it wrong (or right depending upon your perspective) and you summon the archdemon and the entire horde.