305 réponses à ce sujet

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

The wheel isn't the problem in my opinion its the limited options it presents, if they made it include more responses and gave us a better idea of the exact dialogue it would help.

[Shatterkiss]

I could live with the wheel format without complaint but only if the dialog options actually match the dialog you say, and if there are more options than just nice, failed-attempt-at-wit, and psychotic a**hole.

[Boiny Bunny]

I would be a lot happier with the wheel if they did away with the symbols and randomised the options each time - so that it wouldn't encourage just blindly selecting 'top right' option (or 'middle right' etc.) every single time for the entire game with no thought.

[Dragoonlordz]

In theory it would be a super easy thing to do, create an option in settings that would disable the centre image. For something so simple imho giving an option I don't see any problems with by default will be on but for those who dislike it can turn it off. Also like everyone else who has said so, I do not want to use paraphrasing either in the dialogue and would also like more options than '3 per choice plus an investigate options' which is not enough imho and I actually dislike the investigate options. I prefer not knowing which choices in a conversation will bring it to a close because that way I think a lot more carefully about which I pick and on top of that with investigate style options it becomes a bit silly in that it makes it feel like all the ones on left side make no difference and get reduced to 'bleh, click click click cba to read it since wont progress the dialogue'. I seem to be one of only ones however who also would like the visual aspect of the wheel changed both font and styling to a fantasy style font and appearence wheel if it has to be a wheel. As it stands right now it looks like a drag and drop from a scifi game (e.g. Mass Effect).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mai 2011 - 12:10 .

[Merced652]

Yea, but where would those super cool pictures be that i metagame like a champ????

[Zem_]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I would be a lot happier with the wheel if they did away with the symbols and randomised the options each time - so that it wouldn't encourage just blindly selecting 'top right' option (or 'middle right' etc.) every single time for the entire game with no thought.

Sure, while they are at it perhaps they should randomize your quick-bar icons too so you can never be certain what power you are firing off when you press a button, right?

Seriously though, why should choosing a dialogue option be a guessing game?  The only thing that should matter is that you can choose how you want your character to act.  Actively making that difficult or some kind of challenge to figure out makes no more sense than having to solve a riddle to cast a spell.  Sure, that'd be more challenging than just pressing a button... but why?  

DA2 has the icons because it only gives you a few words to figure out the intent of the dialogue option otherwise.  Mass Effect did not have icons, but it did tend to follow a convention of top=paragon/diplomatic, bottom = renegade/aggressive, left = investigate, right = move conversation forward / conclude it.  Even with the icons, people complain of being surprised by what their Hawke has to say.  It'd be even worse for those folks without it.  I'd rather just see captions added to the top of the screen or something as an option you can turn on for those people who want to read the whole line before they hear their character repeat it.

[Maverick827]

I'd rather be surprised at what Hawke actually says once or twice in an entire game than have Alistair take offense to what I thought was a joke once or twice in every conversation with him.

[Boiny Bunny]

Zem_ wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I would be a lot happier with the wheel if they did away with the symbols and randomised the options each time - so that it wouldn't encourage just blindly selecting 'top right' option (or 'middle right' etc.) every single time for the entire game with no thought.

Sure, while they are at it perhaps they should randomize your quick-bar icons too so you can never be certain what power you are firing off when you press a button, right?

Seriously though, why should choosing a dialogue option be a guessing game?  The only thing that should matter is that you can choose how you want your character to act.  Actively making that difficult or some kind of challenge to figure out makes no more sense than having to solve a riddle to cast a spell.  Sure, that'd be more challenging than just pressing a button... but why?  

DA2 has the icons because it only gives you a few words to figure out the intent of the dialogue option otherwise.  Mass Effect did not have icons, but it did tend to follow a convention of top=paragon/diplomatic, bottom = renegade/aggressive, left = investigate, right = move conversation forward / conclude it.  Even with the icons, people complain of being surprised by what their Hawke has to say.  It'd be even worse for those folks without it.  I'd rather just see captions added to the top of the screen or something as an option you can turn on for those people who want to read the whole line before they hear their character repeat it.

It shouldn't be a guessing game.  It should be a process that requires you to evaluate the options - not just automatically know that the top right is 'good' and if you push it always everybody will love you.  Real conversations are a little bit more complex than that.  I want to be put in the position where I am given 3 options and have to think 'Well they are all quite different - how would this character I'm talking to react to each of those?" - and then actually get a different response for each (another thing DA2 lacks completely).

[IRMcGhee]

But that is what you had to do. Some characters respond better to you being aggressive rather than being nice at times. It's not as simple as top right = everyone likes you/bottom right = everyone hates you. Not to mention the extra choices you sometimes have for discovering certain information/making certain choices earlier/having certain characters which you have to be careful about using at times since they're not always going to give you a positive resolution to the situation. 

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 04 mai 2011 - 02:31 .

[Boiny Bunny]

It is that simple. I've played the game twice, the first time almost 100% picking the top right, and the second, almost 100% the bottom right. Everybody loved me in the first (well, full friends bar, always got friend points and never rival points for picking top right), hated me in the second (or rival maxed out rather).

DA:O had other options as well to find out more information - but they were structured to work in the manner that a natural conversation flows, instead of the dialogue wheel's 'Investigate' option, which should actually be labelled 'Interrogate' - where the NPC just stands there dumbfounded and answers all of your questions, again and again and again if so you choose.

[IRMcGhee]

Sorry, I don't agree with that at all. There's been many dialogues in the game I'm currently playing where I've PO'd certain party members by taking the top right option.

If anything, I think the dialogue in DA2 flows much better and is more natural than in DA:O (most of the time). One of the positives for having the PC VO and the wheel. I've finished DA2 about 8 times and DA:O about two dozen if it matters. And I don't know how long it's been since you last played DA:O, but the investigate options just work the same as DA2's does (including being able to ask the same questions over and over, bar a handful of times where the NPC would terminate the conversation).

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 04 mai 2011 - 02:55 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Really? I mean, I know that there are certain conversations in the game where you get an angry reaction from the NPC no matter what you say (e.g. prologue when Mother is mourning - whatever you say, she responds angrily and blames you) - these instances do not count as the 'good option' resulting in something that could have been avoided by picking the bad option.

Do you have some examples? I can't think of many, if any, conversations where saying a 'bottom right' option gives friendship points and 'top right' gives rivalry points (or similar).

I don't mind the VO - except that it has the effect of drastically reducing the amount of the dialogue in the game as a whole. I don't want to start a discussion about VO vs not though - I'm simply talking about having the wheel versus not.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 04 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[Sammyjb]

The dialogue wheel takes away a lot of RPing. When I play a certain character and I don't want him to be Andrastian, in DAO my character wouldn't choose anything that said Andraste. In DA 2, if I'm nice, I'm Andrastian. It's these little things that ****** me off more than anything else.

[Addai]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Voiced protagonist must remain. It's not 1980 any more, where text is acceptable in a game. Having BioWare doods and doodettes writing dialogue, getting it recorded, getting it put together, tra la la la la, is going to take more time than Gaider and crew plopping dialogue into text files. Give then choice between time spent cranking out eight choices of silent dialogue and three to six choices of spoken dialogue, I choose spoken each and every time.

More cinematic, more entertaining, more fun to play.

Spoken only for yourself, of course.

*clings to Bethesda*

[Zjarcal]

Supernallaw wrote...
In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  

In every Bioware game I've played, the bottom choice is always the "rude, aggresive, jerk" one, whereas the top one is the "polite, heroic, noble" one. That is nothing new. Playing NWN these past few days reminded me of that.

While I wish better paraphrases were implemented in some occasions (and wouldn't complain if the actual dialogue was displayed instead), I have no problem at all with the dialogue wheel in and of itself.

And regarding voiced PCs, I don't EVER want to return to silent PCs.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 04 mai 2011 - 05:28 .

[88mphSlayer]

if you play games like The Witcher where they spell out all the text before you choose what to say there's really no drop off in cinematic quality

that said the dialogue wheel does clean up the screen quite a bit, but it would be nice if the players that wanted it could get more than one option on how text is displayed

[DragonRageGT]

Agree with OP and there are games with fully voiced protagonists and no wheel. We choose the line and they say exactly that. Gothics and The Witcher, for instance. Works a lot better than paraphrases, IMHO.

[Everwarden]

Rockpopple wrote...


By doing away with the Dialogue Wheel, you're basically saying they should do away with VO for protagonists all-together.

The Witcher didn't have a fail-wheel. Just sayin'.

[Corto81]

I dislike the dialogue wheel in RPG games because:
- you get less choices
- you get less choices and they might end up saying something completely different from what you thought you picked
- you get less choices and they might end up saying something completely different from what you thought you picked but it's okay cos you don't have to think/read them, you just look at the icon and choose good/sarcastic/bad options...
(those are pretty much facts IMO)

Honestly, for a game that thrived on the RPG experience, I don't think it's the best option to use.

From my personal PoV, I didn't really feel I got anything from Hawke having my voice...
Other than the fact it felt like Hawke and not "MY" Hawke.
Unlike the Warden in DA:O who felt like an extension of me regardless of the fact he was silent.

[Sabriana]

Persephone wrote...

I remember David Gaider saying that maybe a "Hover your mouse over the paraphrase to reveal the whole sentence(s)" option could be a solution for those who don't like the paraphrases. I'd like to see that implemented. Otherwise I'm fine with DAII's dialogue system/wheel.

I agree with that. I don't like it when *my* PC acts in ways that I never intended for her to act. I don't mind my PC (and I) being surprised/shocked by the reactions, that's normal after all. I can't count the times where I said one thing one way, and it was taken completely wrong by the person I spoke to.

As to the wheel specifically, no, I do not like it at all, but I can live with it, if they improve on it.

[Zanallen]

Corto81 wrote...

I dislike the dialogue wheel in RPG games because:
- you get less choices
- you get less choices and they might end up saying something completely different from what you thought you picked
- you get less choices and they might end up saying something completely different from what you thought you picked but it's okay cos you don't have to think/read them, you just look at the icon and choose good/sarcastic/bad options...
(those are pretty much facts IMO)

1. That isn't true at all. For your average conversation in DA II, you have the exact same amount of options as you would have in DA:O. Some conversations give you less options, yes, but some have more.

2. This is true; however, there were issues with tone and intent in DA:O as well, so it isn't a fault specifically of the wheel.

3. That's a fault of the player, not the system. All of the people complaining that they just pick the "good" option each time are just silly. If they don't want to RP their character, that's fine, but don't blame the wheel for it. Especially when the options in every Bioware game are primarily situated with good on top, neutral in the middle and evil on the bottom.

[Zanallen]

Autolycus wrote...

Disagree Zanallen....

Wheel = I disagree
Protag = I'm going to rip your head off and stick your cat up your sisters ass....
NPC = *Attacks you*

Now I'm sorry, if you are saying thats my fault, and not the wheels/Biowares writers or the paraphrase system.....we must have played different games my friend.

As Persephone quoted (and I can't believe I'm actually going to agree with her for the first time), what gaider weakly suggested might work (admitting himself there is a problem) is fine imo.

If the paraphrase system/wheel....SHOWS what you are going to really say.....then all is fine. Otherwise, its just plain safer to always pick the good response.

Oh no, I quite agree that the paraphrase could be handled better. That was point number 2. Point 3, where I mention the fault of the player, specifically refers to people who says that the game forced them to "just pick the bottom option" because they wanted to be evil and so forth.

I believe David originally mentioned that there is some limitation with having the full line there at all times, but he did later mention that some mouse over or maybe a toggle that would place the full dialogue in a separate box might be doable.

[Nameless2345]

Why do people keep talking about "alignment" and "good, neutral, evil" options?
These things have NOTHING to do with dialogue system in DA2.
Top responce isn't "good" - usually it has olive branch, and that means being diplomatic.
Bottom responce isn't "evil" - usually it is red something, and that means being direct, agressive.

[Zanallen]

Nameless2345 wrote...

Why do people keep talking about "alignment" and "good, neutral, evil" options?
These things have NOTHING to do with dialogue system in DA2.
Top responce isn't "good" - usually it has olive branch, and that means being diplomatic.
Bottom responce isn't "evil" - usually it is red something, and that means being direct, agressive.

Honestly? Its the simplest way to describe the system. It does it a disservice, yes, but its just easier to use terms like good and evil than diplomatic and aggressive.