305 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Addai67 wrote...

You're not speaking for everyone- that is the point that I really shouldn't have to spell out.

I don't mind some voice effects in combat.  It's not material to a character and you can pretty much tune it out.

If you're trying to make the point that I don't speak for everyone, you should try saying "you don't speak for everyone" instead of saying I'm only speaking for myself.  Cause I'm not.  :D:D  

Voiced protagonists = win, unvoiced = fail.  Other aspects might make up for that fail, but unvoiced still = fail.

[Zanallen]

Addai67 wrote...

I can at least have the illusion that the PC is reacting as I think she should.

I do agree that the paraphrase system could have been handled better. I've listed a couple of ways that it could work here in this thread. As for the voiced/silent debate, there are merits for both, so its all an opinion.

[Khayness]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Voiced protagonists = win, unvoiced = fail.  Other aspects might make up for that fail, but unvoiced still = fail.

As you have pointed out, it is completely dependant on the game's style.

[erynnar]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Khayness wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Voiced protagonists = win, unvoiced = fail.  Other aspects might make up for that fail, but unvoiced still = fail.

As you have pointed out, it is completely dependant on the game's style.

Unvoiced: Allows for deeper RP'ing

Voiced : Limited to three personalities

My personal opinion: Unvoiced = better

This^

[Zanallen]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Unvoiced: Allows for deeper RP'ing

Voiced : Limited to three personalities

My personal opinion: Unvoiced = better

Pssst, those same personalities were present in DA:O. However, they were "behind the scenes" as it were. The vast majority of the conversations in DA:O can have their responses broken down into those "three personalities".

[Zem_]

bti79 wrote...
When my PC in DAO said something I found the NPC's to react to the words being said, and not some built in script of it being said with a specific intent presumed by the game or some specific tone.

It's a built-in script.  Install the toolset and you can go LOOK at the built-in script!  I don't know how else to explain this.  Every line of dialogue in DAO is pre-written with a specific intent by the person who wrote it.  The response to that dialogue, should you choose it, is also set in stone (unless it depends conditionally on some skill of yours anyway).  The only difference is that they didn't categorize each response the way DA2 does with their icons.    That is a superficial difference.  Underlying both is the same kind of dialogue scripting.  "Option 1 leads to Response 3" etc. etc.

Because this usually did not exist in DAO - they were blanks filled out by the players own imagination. I nthe few cases they did exist, they never took me by surprise.

You can decide why you are picking a line of dialogue.  You cannot decide what the line means.  That has been decided for you.  The NPC will react to the meaning of that line as defined by the script-writer.  Not by your imagination.  If you were never surprised then it simply means you correctly understood THEIR intent... not your own, when you picked the line.

[Rockpopple]

You're limited to only 3 personalities or so in Dragon Age: Origins as well. You might have a list of 5-6 possible responses, but a couple of them are basically the same "tone", so you're gonna end up with the core of Nice Guy, Snarky Guy, Jerk Guy.

Or Happy Dwarf, Witty Dwarf, and Jerkoff Dwarf.

I guess it's all about what you decide to project onto your character. I can see how people might find that more immersive than a voiced-character. Personally I found them equally immersive. I like a good story. Even when playing Oblivion I never felt "Wow, I'm this guy!" I just felt like I was telling "this guy" what to do or say.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 04 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

This is what's going to happen: Some people don't like the dialogue wheel, others think the paraphrases are confusing, yet another group dislikes the background info and lore, and I have even seen some complaining that the dialogue interferes with the gameplay. So we'll end up with four buttons (without text, but with shiny icons): A positive option button, a negative option button, a "please advice" button, and a large skip button. Innovation!

[erynnar]

Rockpopple wrote...

You're limited to only 3 personalities or so in Dragon Age: Origins as well. You might have a list of 5-6 possible responses, but a couple of them are basically the same "tone", so you're gonna end up with the core of Nice Guy, Snarky Guy, Jerk Guy.

Or Happy Dwarf, Witty Dwarf, and Jerkoff Dwarf.

I guess it's all about what you decide to project onto your character. I can see how people might find that more immersive than a voiced-character. Personally I found them equally immersive. I like a good story. Even when playing Oblivion I never felt "Wow, I'm this guy!" I just felt like I was telling "this guy" what to do or say.

Or as I liked to call them Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy. (for DAO and DA2)

[Sussurus]

fightright2 wrote...

@ OP
Make a poll.

If you do add other picks, to adress the variation in these discussions.

I:E : Yes / no for the wheel in general.
Yes / no for spoken dialogue.
yes / no / optional for paraphrasing.

[Rockpopple]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This is what's going to happen: Some people don't like the dialogue wheel, others think the paraphrases are confusing, yet another group dislikes the background info and lore, and I have even seen some complaining that the dialogue interferes with the gameplay. So we'll end up with four buttons (without text, but with shiny icons): A positive option button, a negative option button, a "please advice" button, and a large skip button. Innovation!

And the PC won't speak with a voice, but instead mime the user-selected responses. Everybody wins! 

Modifié par Rockpopple, 04 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[Zanallen]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

At least you picked the snarky response YOU wanted The Warden to say. While in DA2, Hawke didn't feel like my character. She simply felt like someone I was watching do stuff without my knowledge. I pick "I want to be a dragon", she says "nice trick, mind teaching me that"?

The term I can best use to describe DA2's RP'ing, is "Role-Watching game". An RWG.

And so your issue once again boils down to the paraphrase system and not the voiced protagonist.

[erynnar]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

You're limited to only 3 personalities or so in Dragon Age: Origins as well. You might have a list of 5-6 possible responses, but a couple of them are basically the same "tone", so you're gonna end up with the core of Nice Guy, Snarky Guy, Jerk Guy.

Or Happy Dwarf, Witty Dwarf, and Jerkoff Dwarf.

I guess it's all about what you decide to project onto your character. I can see how people might find that more immersive than a voiced-character. Personally I found them equally immersive. I like a good story. Even when playing Oblivion I never felt "Wow, I'm this guy!" I just felt like I was telling "this guy" what to do or say.

Or as I liked to call them Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy. (for DAO and DA2)

At least you picked the snarky response YOU wanted The Warden to say. While in DA2, Hawke didn't feel like my character. She simply felt like someone I was watching do stuff without my knowledge. I pick "I want to be a dragon", she says "nice trick, mind teaching me that"?

The term I can best use to describe DA2's RP'ing, is "Role-Watching game". An RWG.

May I borrow that? RWG was exactly how I felt too. A click and watch interactive movie. I can't even bring myself to write fanfiction for DA2 because I wasn't Hawke.

[Rockpopple]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

You're limited to only 3 personalities or so in Dragon Age: Origins as well. You might have a list of 5-6 possible responses, but a couple of them are basically the same "tone", so you're gonna end up with the core of Nice Guy, Snarky Guy, Jerk Guy.

Or Happy Dwarf, Witty Dwarf, and Jerkoff Dwarf.

I guess it's all about what you decide to project onto your character. I can see how people might find that more immersive than a voiced-character. Personally I found them equally immersive. I like a good story. Even when playing Oblivion I never felt "Wow, I'm this guy!" I just felt like I was telling "this guy" what to do or say.

Or as I liked to call them Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy. (for DAO and DA2)

At least you picked the snarky response YOU wanted The Warden to say. While in DA2, Hawke didn't feel like my character. She simply felt like someone I was watching do stuff without my knowledge. I pick "I want to be a dragon", she says "nice trick, mind teaching me that"?

The term I can best use to describe DA2's RP'ing, is "Role-Watching game". An RWG.

Hm... I don't know if this will help, but the way I thought of it was that the paraphrase was what Hawke was thinking, and then Hawke would say what she says.

So like Hawke is looking at Flemeth the Dragon Lady and thinking "I wanna be a dragon.", so she says, "Hey, can you teach me that?" That being transforming into a dragon.

It's not a wild leap to get from A to B in that case. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Rockpopple wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This is what's going to happen: Some people don't like the dialogue wheel, others think the paraphrases are confusing, yet another group dislikes the background info and lore, and I have even seen some complaining that the dialogue interferes with the gameplay. So we'll end up with four buttons (without text, but with shiny icons): A positive option button, a negative option button, a "please advice" button, and a large skip button. Innovation!

And the PC won't speak with a voice, but instead mime the user-selected responses. Everybody wins! 

That's brilliant! I think we should do the same for the other characters. That also makes localization cheaper. No more voice actors for the all the supported languages. Think about the profit. I am thinking about buying EA shares now.

Seriously... I think we are stuck with it. There seems to be a system which follows what options you select and then does something with the intonation for the long term or something like that. Well... I didn't see that work or maybe I didn't notice it. I rather have those alternatives changed into something meaningful... Like the dialogue recognizes whether you are a (blood) mage or not, or whether you side with the templars or not, or whatever is relevant for DA3.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 mai 2011 - 06:26 .

[Zanallen]

erynnar wrote...

May I borrow that? RWG was exactly how I felt too. A click and watch interactive movie. I can't even bring myself to write fanfiction for DA2 because I wasn't Hawke.

But why didn't you feel like Hawke? Was it the voice in and of itself or as that just part of the reason?

[erynnar]

Zanallen wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

At least you picked the snarky response YOU wanted The Warden to say. While in DA2, Hawke didn't feel like my character. She simply felt like someone I was watching do stuff without my knowledge. I pick "I want to be a dragon", she says "nice trick, mind teaching me that"?

The term I can best use to describe DA2's RP'ing, is "Role-Watching game". An RWG.

And so your issue once again boils down to the paraphrase system and not the voiced protagonist.

I don't know about Alilover, but for me that was part of it to be sure. But I really felt like I was watching a click and play movie instead of being in the world and interacting with it through my PC interface. I even made my mage Hawke look exactly like my rogue one because I couldn't see another person having that voice. It belonged to that one Hawke, and she wasn't me. 

I likened it to being in a car on rails with the pimping of my ride being the paint job and being able to hang a snarky purple air freshner from the rearview, while having the radio station playing constantly and only having a limited amount of stations to listen to.

In DAO I had a bumper car that was limited to it's area but I was free to drive around in that limited space. I could stil paint the outside and I didn't have to listen to radio stations I couldn't turn off. I could sing my songs the way I wanted them to be sung having only to change the tone of a few notes to make the songs I was given to sing come out a certain way.

[Zanallen]

erynnar wrote...

I don't know about Alilover, but for me that was part of it to be sure. But I really felt like I was watching a click and play movie instead of being in the world and interacting with it through my PC interface. I even made my mage Hawke look exactly like my rogue one because I couldn't see another person having that voice. It belonged to that one Hawke, and she wasn't me. 

I likened it to being in a car on rails with the pimping of my ride being the paint job and being able to hang a snarky purple air freshner from the rearview, while having the radio station playing constantly and only having a limited amount of stations to listen to.

In DAO I had a bumper car that was limited to it's area but I was free to drive around in that limited space. I could stil paint the outside and I didn't have to listen to radio stations I couldn't turn off. I could sing my songs the way I wanted them to be sung having only to change the tone of a few notes to make the songs I was given to sing come out a certain way.

If you knew exactly what Hawke was going to say, would that have helped? Or is it that the "voice" just didn't work for the character in certain instances?

[Rockpopple]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This is what's going to happen: Some people don't like the dialogue wheel, others think the paraphrases are confusing, yet another group dislikes the background info and lore, and I have even seen some complaining that the dialogue interferes with the gameplay. So we'll end up with four buttons (without text, but with shiny icons): A positive option button, a negative option button, a "please advice" button, and a large skip button. Innovation!

And the PC won't speak with a voice, but instead mime the user-selected responses. Everybody wins! 

That's brilliant! I think we should do the same for the other characters. That also makes localization cheaper. No more voice actors for the all the supported languages. Thinks about the profit. I am thinking about buying EA shares now.

*snip*

I've got it.

The player has a choice between a big shiny icon that's a checkmark, an x, one that says please advice, and one that skips the entire dialogue sequence.

Then the PC will mime the picked option. The NPCs then will try and guess what the PC is trying to say. It can even be a mini-game, maybe a QTE.

This new system will sweep the world of RPGs. Not only will it please everyone, but the savings - think of the savings!

BioWare - you're welcome.

[bti79]

"You like the shiny?" - Sandal

hehe

[erynnar]

Zanallen wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I don't know about Alilover, but for me that was part of it to be sure. But I really felt like I was watching a click and play movie instead of being in the world and interacting with it through my PC interface. I even made my mage Hawke look exactly like my rogue one because I couldn't see another person having that voice. It belonged to that one Hawke, and she wasn't me. 

I likened it to being in a car on rails with the pimping of my ride being the paint job and being able to hang a snarky purple air freshner from the rearview, while having the radio station playing constantly and only having a limited amount of stations to listen to.

In DAO I had a bumper car that was limited to it's area but I was free to drive around in that limited space. I could stil paint the outside and I didn't have to listen to radio stations I couldn't turn off. I could sing my songs the way I wanted them to be sung having only to change the tone of a few notes to make the songs I was given to sing come out a certain way.

If you knew exactly what Hawke was going to say, would that have helped? Or is it that the "voice" just didn't work for the character in certain instances?

I have thought about that.  And the conclusion I come to is yes, and no. Yes I would prefer to have "****** off" come out of my Hawke's mouth if I pick that option.  But really, I just can't feel part of the world when I am just playing parts of a game to get to basically pieces of a movie.

I agree with people that the expressions of the Warden could have been a lot better. So I ask people who prefer the VO because of that wooden puppet feeling...would you all have liked the silent protragonist better if you had felt they had expressions to go along with what you picked to say? Would that have helped your immersion?

And Rockpopple gave me a very nice insight into...it's what Hawke thinks in her head and but she filters it before she says it (ie my picking "Hey I'm a mage" when talking to Cullen, which isn't what I said and even if I had he would have ignored it like he ignores my spellcasting).  And having a mouse over that tells you what the paraphrase will lead to would help in that regard.

But in the end, a VO is just someone else I am watching. I am a first person player, not a third person player like in ME (which I love, but I am not Shep. I like watching what Shep gets up to, but I am not her).